George Best "Merge both the national teams"

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Originally Posted by crc

What you are basically saying is that you can have only one identity, which is untrue. What people are failing to understand is that is possible and legitimate to feel British AND Irish AND Ulster-ish (sic).

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What you have is a regional identity (Irish) and a national identity (British). Not uncommon in many parts of the world including seperatist-seeking nations of Europe (Basques, Catalans, Corsicans, etc). However the two are not on the same level as say someone genuinely of dual nationality. It has annoyed me when some unionists have come on here banging on about their Irishness on the one hand while on the other they wouldn't even consider dual sovereignty for the O6C.

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Originally Posted by crc

Let's not forget who broke away from whom. The Northerners didn't want to divide the Irish international football team, or the league; as noted above this view was true at least until the 1960s, and is almost certainly still the case today (They are the IRISH FA, not Northern Irish FA, their competitions are the IRISH league and the IRISH Cup).

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The split and subsequent attempts at cajoling the FAI (and forcing them to take on the FAIFS for fifteen odd years) is a long subject. The IFA of the pre-split era were an arrogant bunch in which they forced their unionist politics and (principally) dissenter religion onto the sport. The banning of all football games on Sunday and the causing of an embarrasing and over the top, incident at an amateur international in Paris, where they got 'the Sinn Fein' flag removed, are two classic examples. (BTW: Peter Byrne in his history of the FAI mentions that a letter in later years to the Irish Times revealedthe owners of the flag were Black African medical students who had travelled from Dublin).

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Originally Posted by crc

I won't deny that any of this is true, but have you any link or reference to tell us when it was from?

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I remember reading this and thought it was produced by Sugden and Bairner who are academics of sport and sectarianism in Ireland.

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there. :rolleyes:

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If you read the post again, I never mentioned the Butcher's apron. I mentioned the uninonist NI flag. And as Doire Abu and Stojkovic state, Ireland is represented and (disgracefully IMO) has not been removed from it. Wales is not represented whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by crc

As I said before, it is possible to feel Irish, without relinquishing Britishness, or 'home nation-ness'.

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I'm not saying it isn't. But two things. I think you are playing up the feeling of Irishness up North on behalf of the Unionists and we can not even define what it is to be Irish and what their definition of Irish is compared to many others who consider themselves Irish.

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Originally Posted by crc

I am aware of this, but in Interpreting Northern Ireland(1990) by John Whyte, he states that the diminishing number of Unionists who choose any kind of Irishness in surveys can be explained by IRA idiots trying to blow them up over thirty years. In Whyte's book there are surveys showing that before the trauma of the Troubles, many in the Protestant community felt Irish to some extent aswell as British.

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Yeah, I've read chapters of that book. You can offer an explanation but it doesn't change the fact that this is how Unionists see themselves.

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Originally Posted by crc

As is Football Association of Ireland, why not "Football Association of the Republic of Ireland"?

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Good point, why not indeed?

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Originally Posted by crc

Because you said they were 'full nations, unlike Ireland'. In fact their situations have share common characteristics with Ireland. In both the Basque and Kurdish nationalities there are many who, as well as feeling Basque or Kurdish, are comfortable living within France (Bixente Lizarazu) or Spain, or Turkey, Iraq, or Iran. Obviously not all feel this way, but as I said the issues are complicated, just as they are in Ireland.

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Well I think this is where we disagree. I see two nations on the island, not the Republic and Northern Ireland as for me the state boundaries of the North well exceed the boundary of the Unionist/Protestant/whatever you want to call it nation. I get a feeling you don't consider the Unionists a full nation and therefore don't agree with my above point.

Your right , saint patricks flag is represented on it

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wikipeida: -The current Union Flag dates from January 1, 1801 with the 1801 Act of Union with Ireland. The red cross actually comes from the heraldic device of the Fitzgerald family who were sent by Henry II of England to aid Anglo-Norman rule in Ireland and has rarely been used as an emblem of Ireland by the Irish

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Its just that It never has been adopted by the Irish. Cant see it being adopted either somehow.

Anyway this is about soccer not politics. There is little to be gained from one national team. Northerners might as well have a team that has their own players in it than have support a national team which has zero northerners on it.

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Originally Posted by Eire06

Waiting from the backlash from the 'know it all's/ I'm right and your all stupid' people on this site tellin me I live in the past... :rolleyes:

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Well you are choosing to live in your specific past. About 5 or 6 hundred years before the first Norman invasion people from this island were invading the island of Britain pillaging and kidnapping and exploiting to strengthen their kingdoms here. How do you think St. Patrick came over?

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Well I think this is where we disagree. I see two nations on the island, not the Republic and Northern Ireland as for me the state boundaries of the North well exceed the boundary of the Unionist/Protestant/whatever you want to call it nation. I get a feeling you don't consider the Unionists a full nation and therefore don't agree with my above point.

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I think we're closer on this point than you think. I dont' deny that there are (at least) two sides to the national identity issue in Ireland. I trying was pointing out that the Basque, Kurdish (and Irish) nationality issue is less homogenous than many people think.

Regarding the IFA/FAIFS split, the reasons were justified, but I was trying to point out that Protestant/Unionists did feel a connection to the whole island (even if it was about dominating it). The current IFA is, thankfully, a different bunch of people of people than those who were around pre-1921.

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Originally Posted by Poor Student

Well you are choosing to live in your specific past. About 5 or 6 hundred years before the first Norman invasion people from this island were invading the island of Britain pillaging and kidnapping and exploiting to strengthen their kingdoms here. How do you think St. Patrick came over?

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you make me laugh.. Its always the same pathetic answer from you lot..
At that uncivilised time in history it was common for groups to steal and pillage places all over Europe for wealth, it was done purely for money and not to conquer lands, and the English, Romans and nearly every other nation at that time partook in these activities as it was really a lawless era.....

So sorry to disappoint you but the British were doing the exact same all over Europe

Well, this thread certainly makes it obvious why forming one team would be difficult. There are too many close-minded muppets roaming our island. I don't know how ye all survive with such large chips on your shoulders.

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Originally Posted by thejollyrodger

There is no representation of ireland on the british flag, its Scotland Wales and England. It might as well be the Iraqi national flag flying up there. :rolleyes:

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I suppose you could stick a giant shamrock on the front of the union jack,
I wonder what that would look like?
If anyone who is good at such things could make a picture of such a
flag I would love to see it!
I think it would look quite funny.