will anymore eL players get capped next year?

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29/12/2004, 7:38 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Conor74

I don't think sweeping generalisations, like 'English Div. 1 is better than the eL' are appropriate.

You're not seriously going to suggest the opposite, are you? :rolleyes: :eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/Ed

Kerr has also given more time to English second division players, or league one or whatever it is, than he has to domestic players. Not even someone who was standing out at that level either.

You mean yer man the winger at QPR? (Can't remember his name) Wasn't he only in the end-of-season games with Nigeria, Jamaica and Holland? And didn't Kerr say that he would have called up two or three eL players for that squad (O'Flynn, Crowe and Byrne were mentioned, I think) only that it would have involved their respective clubs missing them for important matches?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/Ed

if it was just about the players he faces week in week our Kerr wouldn't have made the distinction between the old firm, Hearts and the rest, they'd all be pretty much equal.

Rangers and Celtic have played CL group stages in the past few years, while the others haven't, which is why he made the distinction. Going out of his way to accommodate Maybury is strange, I will admit, though even then, he got to face Basel, Ferencvaros, Stuttgart(?) and some other team in what was an average European campaign for a decent (i.e. not Dunfermline or Livingston or the likes) Scottish team, whereas Shels' was the best ever eL campaign by far. Maybe if they can do it more regularly, things will change. Until then, I think the eL clubs have to work to get their players to that level rather than giving out if their players aren't chosen.
29/12/2004, 9:06 PM
Slash/ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You mean yer man the winger at QPR? (Can't remember his name) Wasn't he only in the end-of-season games with Nigeria, Jamaica and Holland? And didn't Kerr say that he would have called up two or three eL players for that squad (O'Flynn, Crowe and Byrne were mentioned, I think) only that it would have involved their respective clubs missing them for important matches?

Him and Alan Quinn was making mid season friendlys while playing for Wednesday, and he got more than a token two minutes and that's your lot kind of chance too. And that EL summer thing is a load of rubbish imo, the clubs would have been delighted to lose them for a week or so mid season to see them get a few caps, it boosts the profile of the club and if they ever want to sell the player that adds alot of value to the transfer fee. It also makes players more likely to come to the clubs if they can make international squads.

Quote:

Rangers and Celtic have played CL group stages in the past few years, while the others haven't, which is why he made the distinction. Going out of his way to accommodate Maybury is strange, I will admit, though even then, he got to face Basel, Ferencvaros, Stuttgart(?) and some other team in what was an average European campaign for a decent (i.e. not Dunfermline or Livingston or the likes) Scottish team, whereas Shels' was the best ever eL campaign by far. Maybe if they can do it more regularly, things will change. Until then, I think the eL clubs have to work to get their players to that level rather than giving out if their players aren't chosen.

Well he never mentioned consistency, you mean if Shels repeat this performance next year suddenly we'll have players in contention for the international team? I doubt it. Shels faced better teams than those ones this season anyway.
30/12/2004, 6:43 AM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynamo kerry

I don't know what bankrupt clubs has to do with anything. none are bankrupt AFAIK although many of them have the typical financial problems of many teams in england, almost all have debt of some kind. sunderland are doing quite well now mind you.

experience? by my count only mcgeady and elliot are novices at club level the rest are easily in the 100+ game club. As for international experience, well I don't see how that is a massive point against them as it's the same for domestic based players.

injury prone: who are you on about with this 'point'? any stats regarding people being more or less injury prone than others?

I do agree however the odd 25 minutes for the likes of doyle would be fabulous. playing against the faores though is too much of a risk.

Actually bankrupt (or near bankrupt) clubs has a lot to do with it. Many of the lower division players are with clubs in serious financial trouble, of which several are on relatively short-term contracts. When it comes to the end of the season, those clubs will sell or release many of those players, which may include members of our squad, as has happened before. They will then be free to move to other clubs, who won't take them, because they too, are in serious financial trouble. So said player has no club, can't play, isn't fit, but is apparantly still good enough to play top class international football for Brian Kerr, because he claims we have nobody else. :(

The classic case of this is Ian Harte who Leeds had to sell, because of their relegation and financial problems. Ian's gone to play regularly in the top league in Europe, but because he's not playing in England, Kerr doesn't want to know about him.

As for experience, how many of this crop have played in Europe for their clubs? Cunningham, Doherty, Breen, Kilbane, Quinn, Barrett, Connolly, and Macken.

Despite having almost zero experience of playing in Europe for their clubs, these players are apparantly still good enough to play top class international football for Brian Kerr, up against the best the world can throw at us. The NL's best players have several years of experience (however limited) of European games, against decent teams.

During the summer internationals last summer, when there were many withdrawals in our squad leaving the squad wafer thin, Brian refused to name replacements. Our league's fit, motivated, full-time professionals who would have travelled to the friendlies at a phone call's notice, were not called upon to provide back-up to the squad.

I still find it hard to believe that the best players in our league cannot be considered to play against the awful Faroe Islands, or make the squad. They would be more motivated, less tired, eager to make a good impression, and boost the goal difference.

Brian's attitude (with 2 exceptions) is that if you don't play in England, you can't play for your country. If our best players went to England, he'd be after them within a couple of months. It's not that we don't have the players, it's that Brian just doesn't want to play players who are unfamiliar to him.
30/12/2004, 11:38 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/ED

And that EL summer thing is a load of rubbish imo, the clubs would have been delighted to lose them for a week or so mid season to see them get a few caps

Really? Cork were very quick to whinge when they lost John O'Flynn to the U-21 squad earlier this year.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/Ed

Shels faced better teams than those ones this season anyway.

Really? Hearts have played Braga of Portugal, Feyernoord, Schalke, Basel and Ferencvaros. Shels have played Depor (fair enough), Hadjuk Split, Lille and KR Reykjavik. Apart from Depor, Hearts have the advantage (ask Celtic and Liverpool about Basel!) and haven't played anyone as poor as KR.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

Actually bankrupt (or near bankrupt) clubs has a lot to do with it. Many of the lower division players are with clubs in serious financial trouble, of which several are on relatively short-term contracts. When it comes to the end of the season, those clubs will sell or release many of those players, which may include members of our squad, as has happened before. They will then be free to move to other clubs, who won't take them, because they too, are in serious financial trouble. So said player has no club, can't play, isn't fit, but is apparantly still good enough to play top class international football for Brian Kerr, because he claims we have nobody else.

Don't understand your logic here at all. All players are going to get released because their club is broke, but won't find another club because they're all broke too? If a player is good enough, he'll find another club. If not, he's not going to be in contention for the Ireland team anyway. So it doesn't matter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

The NL's best players have several years of experience (however limited) of European games, against decent teams.

Very limited. Very, very limited. Losing to Levadia Tallinn and FC Vaduz doesn't augur well for playing international football. Doesn't compensate for playing in a better league (i.e. English Division One or Premiership). Remember, Shels' run this year was the best ever - it's never happened before. Before this year, the best we'd played was Rosenborg and been beaten comprehensively twice. Not good enough to play international football.

Is your list the players who haven't played European football? Connolly played Champions' League for Feyernoord - was a lone forward when they played in Old Trafford. Kilbane may well be there by next season! :eek: But eL players playing Icelandic or Estonian - or even Croatian or Norweigan - teams still doesn't bridge the gap to playing Premiership football.

I have to agree with dynamo kerry on the Faroes game - that's a potential banana skin - ask Scotland, Slovenia or Germany, among others, and is not thetime to be playing eL players just to pander to the league. It's a time for being clinical and getting three points without any fuss.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

It's not that we don't have the players, it's that Brian just doesn't want to play players who are unfamiliar to him.

Nonsense. How many eL players has Kerr had in his various youth squads? I can think of Clive Delaney, Aidan Lynch and Glen Fitzpatrick from UCD alone. Kerr is very familiar with eL players, and if he reckons they aren't good enough for international football, who are we to argue?
30/12/2004, 11:45 PM
harry crumb

Why hasn't Brian Kerr been to Turners Cross this year?
30/12/2004, 11:50 PM
Slash/ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Really? Cork were very quick to whinge when they lost John O'Flynn to the U-21 squad earlier this year.

There's a world of difference between the u21s and the senior team.

Quote:

Really? Hearts have played Braga of Portugal, Feyernoord, Schalke, Basel and Ferencvaros. Shels have played Depor (fair enough), Hadjuk Split, Lille and KR Reykjavik. Apart from Depor, Hearts have the advantage (ask Celtic and Liverpool about Basel!) and haven't played anyone as poor as KR.

Lille won their group and are challanging for the French league, one of Europes best (Two European cup finalalists last year). They're better than any of those sides bar maybe Schalke.
31/12/2004, 12:20 AM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/ED

There's a world of difference between the u21s and the senior team.

Maybe, but I'd say they'd still whinge. Club before country and all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/Ed

Lille won their group and are challanging for the French league, one of Europe's best (Two European cup finalists last year). They're better than any of those sides bar maybe Schalke.

What about FC Basel? CL Second Group phase two years ago - knocking out Liverpool and Celtic, drawing with Juve and Man Utd - very handy team. Hearts didn't face anyone near as poor as KR - whom Shels didn't even beat - or even as poor as Split. Schalke didn't even win their group - Feyernoord did, and so must be considered at least as good as Schalke, and so as good as Lille. I still think Hearts played a better calibre than Shels, even before you consider Rangers and Celtic.

Anyway, I agree about Maybury not contributing much to the Ireland squad, so I'm not going to get into an argument about whether Shels' or Hearts' run was better. But if the best the eL can muster is that they may have one player who might be better than Maybury, then they can't really complain about not having any players being capped.

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry crumb

Why hasn't Brian Kerr been to Turners Cross this year?

Are you sure he hasn't been? Lot of people at Cork games - very easy to miss him. Has he been to any Cork away matches? Would surely be just as good. I've often seen him at Belfield and Tolka, so he can't be said to be ignoring the league.
31/12/2004, 12:22 AM
harry crumb

Yeah he was at Belfield the day John O'Flynn got a hat-trick 2 years ago. i dont think he has been to Cork though.
31/12/2004, 12:37 AM
Slash/ED

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But if the best the eL can muster is that they may have one player who might be better than Maybury, then they can't really complain about not having any players being capped.

I don't see that logic. If Heary is better than Maybury then he should be in ahead of him, weather anyone else is good enough or not isn't really the issue in that situation. And I'd have Jason Byrne at least getting a run out in friendlys as it goes anyway.

Quote:

What about FC Basel? CL Second Group phase two years ago - knocking out Liverpool and Celtic, drawing with Juve and Man Utd - very handy team. Hearts didn't face anyone near as poor as KR - whom Shels didn't even beat - or even as poor as Split. Schalke didn't even win their group - Feyernoord did, and so must be considered at least as good as Schalke, and so as good as Lille. I still think Hearts played a better calibre than Shels, even before you consider Rangers and Celtic.

That basel was a few years ago, they're not the same team now, if they were they wouldn't be in the UEFA cup. Shels "didn't even beat" KR is a load of rubbish, we knocked them out, do you think they care they drew with us twice and finished unbeaten in Europe? We played them and we beat them on away goals.

By your own logic Deportivo are better than anyone Hearts played and so are Lille with the exception of Feyenoord who are their equals. Not a world of different then, and Hadjuk Split are not a bad side, they were also in the CL group stage at one stage and had a many internationals including a player just back from Euro 2004.
31/12/2004, 6:11 AM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I have to agree with dynamo kerry on the Faroes game - that's a potential banana skin - ask Scotland, Slovenia or Germany, among others, and is not thetime to be playing eL players just to pander to the league. It's a time for being clinical and getting three points without any fuss.

Ahem... Germany, and Scotland's experiences against the Faroes is precisely why I believe the NL's best players should be considered for the game. The Faroes played Germany in June, at the same time we have to play them next year. Germany's star players who finished second in the World Cup, struggled to beat them because their players were not up for it, and/or tired at the end of their long league seasons. They won with 2 late goals.

As for Scotland, they played them at the beginning of the season, when their players were also not match-fit, and were lacking motivation for their game. They escaped with a draw, after being 2 down early on. Do you think our English-based players will be fully focussed on the game, bar Roy Keane? They will be tired after a very long English season, and may not approach the game properly, especially after playing against Israel the previous weekend. Our league's best players are far better than what the Faroes have, will be fit, up for it, and eager to get the job done.
31/12/2004, 6:30 AM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Losing to Levadia Tallinn and FC Vaduz doesn't augur well for playing international football. Doesn't compensate for playing in a better league (i.e. English Division One or Premiership). Remember, Shels' run this year was the best ever - it's never happened before. Before this year, the best we'd played was Rosenborg and been beaten comprehensively twice. Not good enough to play international football.

Kerr is very familiar with eL players, and if he reckons they aren't good enough for international football, who are we to argue?

With respect, the NL players who have been selected in the past, didn't lose to Vaduz. Like I said before, if those players went to a lower league English club tomorrow, Brian would be calling them up to play for Ireland sharpish. Why the difference? They're still the same players with a lower division club in England, than when they were playing here.

If you take out Celtic and Rangers, the Scottish league is the same standard as the NL Premier Division. The crowds in Scotland are generally poor, one club plays on a plastic pitch, the clubs are in a mess, amid general disinterest from the public. Minus Celtic and Rangers, Scottish clubs played poorly in Europe this season. Hearts failed to qualify out of their UEFA Cup group, and Dunfermline went out to a side from Iceland at home!! Even Shels didn't manage that!! All Scottish clubs, like Ireland's, were out of Europe by Christmas.
31/12/2004, 7:32 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/ED

I don't see that logic. If Heary is better than Maybury then he should be in ahead of him, whether anyone else is good enough or not isn't really the issue in that situation. And I'd have Jason Byrne at least getting a run out in friendlies as it goes anyway.

I didn't say he was better. I only said he may possibly be better. Obviously if he's a better player, he should get in. If not, he shouldn't. That's Kerr's job to decide. Maybe his reasoning wasn't the best - even what we wanted to hear - but he's given plenty of eL players chances at every level he's had, and I don't see why he should be said to have a grudge against eL players.

There's no point giving Byrne a run-out in friendlies if he isn't going to be considered for the main squad. Who would you drop from dynamo kerry's squad list? Bearing in mind that the likes of Elliott and Flood are now coming through at a higher level. Byrne flopped in Europe and I honestly don't think he's good enough for international football at this moment. I'd love to see it, but I'd prefer to see the team winning rather than picking eL players for the sake of it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/Ed

That Basel was a few years ago, they're not the same team now, if they were they wouldn't be in the UEFA cup. Shels "didn't even beat" KR is a load of rubbish, we knocked them out, do you think they care they drew with us twice and finished unbeaten in Europe? We played them and we beat them on away goals.

That Basel was two years ago (2002/03 season). This year's team lost to Inter in the third qualifying round for the CL, drawing at home. Inter subsequently walked their group, dropping only two points. Basel are a much better side than you're giving them.

Shels drew twice with KR. That's good enough for the European Cup - and fair dues - but we need to win World Cup qualifiers, not draw them. Consequently, we need players who can show they can help beat international teams. Drawing twice with KR isn't going to show that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slash/Ed

By your own logic Deportivo are better than anyone Hearts played and so are Lille with the exception of Feyenoord who are their equals. Not a world of difference then, and Hadjuk Split are not a bad side, they were also in the CL group stage at one stage and had a many internationals including a player just back from Euro 2004.

Split qualified for the group stages once, back in 1994. The Croatian league isn't great - Rijeka lost to Pat's as well a couple of years back. Hearts had tougher opponents, before you look at them playing Rangers and Celtic every six weeks, and playing Livingston and Dunfermline instead of Dublin City. Maybury regularly plays against a better standard of player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

With respect, the NL players who have been selected in the past, didn't lose to Vaduz. Like I said before, if those players went to a lower league English club tomorrow, Brian would be calling them up to play for Ireland sharpish.

No he wouldn't. He expressly said that he wouldn't consider any player from English Division Two or lower for the exact same reason. Most people will argue that the eL is Division Two or so standard. So what's the problem there? He's being perfectly consistent.

Don't agree with you on the Faroes either. I agree that the eL players would have an advantage being in the middle of their season, but there's far too much to lose. Kerr'll have the players very well prepared as always, they'll be focussed as always and I don't think throwing someone in for their debut is going to improve the team from having Premier and Division One players.
01/01/2005, 12:41 AM
Fair_play_boy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheridan

I'm stunned and dismayed by these comments from Kerr, I think he's revealed himself to be the Barstooler's Barstooler. I shall have to switch from indifference towards the "national" team to actively rooting against it, it's nothing but a cancer on Irish football and can only hold it back.

Spot on, Sheridan. The single worst thing Kerr did in this statement, IMO, is the way he wrote off the chances of players who made the Irish U-21 side, despite being up against the lads who came through the development academies of the big cross-channel clubs.
I have a next door neighbour who is a decent underage footballer. His da allowed him go over to Aston Villa youths section from where he may graduate to play senior football. If that lad does make it, does that mean Kerr will favour him over, say, Kevin Doyle, based on the assumption that he could not be that good if he ONLY plays in the EL? :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

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