Feel sick, lads :( We are obviously miles behind Italy and Spain, but for us to be comprehensively beaten by a team who I would only regard as being slightly better than us is just gutting. What killed us tonight is that the Croatian team were able to play with even more intensity than us. That combined with their technical skill meant the game was comfortable for them.
Trapatonni specifically blamed the midfield in the interview he gave after the match. Whelan gave the ball way in some terrible areas of the pitch. And always looked for the backward ball even when we went 3-1 down. He should be able to think for himself no matter what instructions he was issued.
Depressed intially, but we have know have an choice. Play the way we played against Croatia or go for it like we had to in Paris which was IMO, the last time we played really well and to our natural strengths. I would rather we take this risk, rather than continue to play the defensive way we are presently playing.
Secondly, does anyone else hate, that when under pressure in midfield, Whelan and Andrews drop back directly in front of the central defenders and concede ground to the opposition midfield. I know it is tactical, but to me it is so negative and puts major pressure on our defence.
I find it bizarre that people are shocked by the performance, we do not have a midfield capable of playing, they have had one good performance in two campaigns against what you would call top quality opponents. We are so shaky it's beyond belief. I keep hearing about this unbeaten record but we fail to ever acknowledge that most of the opposition were also Rans. And even against poorer opposition we refuse to pass the pass, rte showed highlights before the game of good play in our last 2 campaigns and every single instance was a massive punt up the field. Losing is one thing but at least be brave and have a go, a proper go that is, try get on the ball and put just four or five passes together. Simon Cox on the left hand side of midfield is the stupidest decision I've ever seen he was completely uncomfortable there. James McLean? A left sided player on the back of a good season or is that just crazy talk from me. I've had no faith in Trapattoni for a long time now and I never will. 1st major tournament in 10 yrs and no plan B. worse still not even a different idea.
My views on it after going back to bed for a couple of hours, some of which was spent lying awake thinking about the game.
We lost mainly because of defensive mistakes. For the first Given was just too slow to get over. I was watching on a setanta stream, and at ht they made an issue of him taking another step to his right in order to be able to see the ball, but I still thought he was too slow. It was a looping header with no pace that seemed to hang in the air forever.
The second was a howler, but on my stream it wasn't clear enough to see if Ward was actually fouled or not - Beglin didn't seem to think so on Setanta.
I wouldn't blame Given for the third - the header hit the post, so I don't think he can get too much grief for not getting to it. The bounce off his head was just bad luck.
On Robbie's penalty claim, again the stream wasn't that clear - initially i thought the defender had got his leg to the ball, but Beglin, Drury, the BBC and people on here are sure it should have been a penalty.
So we had at least a couple of moments of bad luck go against us.
Having said that, I think that when a team does what we do and willingly gives up roughly 60% of possession in a game, and concedes control of midfield very easily, that team puts all its eggs in one basket - defending well. We didn't do that tonight, for any of the goals, regardless of luck, and we paid for it.
I thought we might get a draw if we performed, but neither was achieved.
Particularily galling was to see our back line outmuscled and all 4 of them reduced to nervous wrecks by a bit of closing down from the Croatia frontmen. No I don't lay all the blame on a midfield hiding, it's also up to Dunne to demand them them to turn up.
O'Shea is still not fit and after his awful performance against Hungary should not have been ahead of Kelly, a major error by Trap as well as playing Shay who was explicably poor.
Even with our low standards, Croatia still needed a fair slice of fortune, but the way we play allows for that fortune to happen.
I have no complaints about Andrews, the wide players or front players. That doesn't mean eg. that Doyle and Keane played well, but them not playing particularily well, is not the reason we are not playing well as a team.
Whelan needs a rest and Gibson deserves a start.
Which was it?Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
This the same Italy that got walloped 3-0 by Russia a few days ago? Trap has faced them before, and they couldn't beat him.Quote:
Originally Posted by the bear
Croatia got all the breaks going. The second goal was criminally bad refereeing. As was the penalty not given. The third goal went in via the post and the keeper's head. How many times does that happen?
He was wrongfooted, and couldn't get back in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
We lost a qualifying game, and apparantly we were out. But we're at the tournament now. We've lost a game, but we're not out. Yet. Get a result on Thursday, and it's all to play for in Poznan. It's going to be hard, but it's not impossible.
In a highlights program on ITV they show clearly the Croat centre forward clip Ward'ss heel as he clears the ball causing him to slice it.
They also show Robbie should clearly have had a penalty.
Their first goal relied on a fluke which momentarily send Shay the wrong way.
So we shoudl have been 2-1 up not 2-1 down.
Even their 3rd goal had an element of luck rebounding off the post onto Shay's head.
However I think we could have defended better, we had too many defenders close to goal when we should have
pushed out wider and higher to deny them space to prevent the final ball coming in by winning it rather than
trying to deal with the high quality balls we allowed them to put in.
I feel more optimistic after seeing the highlights. We were undone by luck and bad decisions and I think if
we had a more attacking defence we would have faired better. Also I think we will find it easier dealing with Spain and Italy.
I will be taking the 12-1 we beat Spain - easy money :p
SEPARATING FACT FROM FICTION (EMOTION)
A few facts about Ireland as I see them.
1. There are 15 football teams at the Euros. And then there is Ireland.
(We are not a football team. Simple as! And before you get on your high horse, we are just not a football team in the sense
that we play the game the way other countries do. We give away 65 -70% possession every game and are happy to do so. Who does that?
You just cannot call yourself a bona fide team going into a game with that philosophy.
2. A large portion of the blame for today's result against Croatia should be laid at the doorstep of all those who coach young kids in Ireland.
(We've produced just three players in the last 20 years - Robbie and Roy and Damien Duff. Our coaching system does not produce
technical players because the coaches have no technical ability themselves. If you can't teach kids to play football the proper way, ie like
Croatia did today, then go back to coaching school, or get out of the way and let someone else do it).
3. Where does the blame go?
(Trap cannot be blamed for the tools in his toolbox, because, as stated above they have little or no technical ability and they cannot
string two passes together. But the boss can be blamed for picking several bogus players = central midfielders Whelan and Andrews and full
backs O'Shea and Ward. They are the players he went with. He had his system we were told, so in many respects a good portion of the blame
falls on his shoulders. There were other options like demanding that his players play a semblance of a passing game. There was other personnel - Hoolahan, Wilson. Also, if all we had to offer in attack was hoofing the ball long, why was Keane picked for that role? Walters was the man because of his size. So why was Robbie picked there? Midfield ... yes, that's fine, but Robbie just isnt a target man, never was. That sort of tactic was tried by McCarthy years ago (with Robbie) and never worked. Yet years on we are reverting to a tried and failed system?
4. Today's result and the beating we're going to take from Spain, and possibly Italy, should be seen as a blessing in disguise. It could be the turning point in Irish
soccer, if we recognized that our system needs major surgery. But will we just ignore the inevitable and stumble on towards Brazil 2014?
Here's another fact for you. Trap's record against Italy:Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
P3 W1 D2 GF5 Pts 2
This is with many of the same players and system. Where's the "beating" going to come from?
We woz robbed. :black_eyed:
Not much to add. Gutting after an amazing day in Poznan. The team's body language after the third goal confirmed we'd never get back in the game. They looked too stunned and frustrated to rally again. In fairness, the manner and timing of the goals ensured they were real gut punches. The response could - and should - have been better but sometimes there's no accounting for inexperience and simple break of the ball. Everything that could've went wrong did go wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton
Completely agree.
Currently in Glowny waiting on my train back to Gniezno.
It was a disappointing result but the wonders of Poznan helped. As did the Cherry vodka.
Also the Croatians and Poles are fantastic craic altogether.
3 terrible goals to concede. Joy at our equaliser was delayed and soured due to a phantom whistler. At the end of two terrible decisions. Just was not to be our night, no luck at all. Hard to be critical of Trap having brought an ailing team that shipped goals easily this far. Croatia had by far the better attack, though they had more luck.
I wonder how fit Given Dunne and O'Shea actually are ?
And here's a fact for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
In 1988 we qualified for our first major tournament. We played a pressure game and got some good results, but it was a pressure game (stopping other teams playing rather than doing anything constructive ourselves).
It's 24 years later and we're still not playing footall.
When is it going to change?
If you were happy with that hoof ball performance yesterday then good luck to you.
Bottom line - we have accepted mediocrity in our coaches and players for way too long, while other small nations like Croatia, Denmark, Israel, Turkey have knuckled down and decided to play the game the way it is supposed to be played.
It surely wasn't a surprise how we'd play though is it Mark? We've played hoofball for 4 years under the Trap.
We always cough up chances. Previous teams have been wasteful but Croatia were clinical last night. The warning signs were there for all to see when the Hungarians played us off the park. Changes need to be made. Shake the team up a little.
Agreed, there should be no surprise. Even before the first goal in those first few minutes, there was no surprise with the pattern of play. I'm not going to be critical of the midfield when other options did not turn up to Macedonia last year. Still, we were outplayed in midfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by bishbash
We need good performances now like Croke Park against Italy and Paris against France. When we lost to France in Croke Park, it was over, impossible to turn it around. We got some response from the lads. We'll need that again.
If you want to use like for like, we were fortunate to draw with the mighty Hungry a few days ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
How often?... it happens just about every single time you cough up the ball so cheaply. ''The more you practice, the luckier you get'' so if any team prods around your half for that long something will stick for them eventually.Quote:
Croatia got all the breaks going. The second goal was criminally bad refereeing. As was the penalty not given. The third goal went in via the post and the keeper's head. How many times does that happen?
One of two things happened:
1.We win possession, clear it down the wings from wing back. Croats had a 50/50 chance to retrieve.
2.We backed off them until they reached our box, coupled with the fact everyone far too deep meaning when we won the ball
our players had 1/2/3 closing them down and they were forced to kick it long to the half way line where it was retrieved by a Croat defender sitting pretty on the half way line.
My recollection of the second goal tells me we had ELEVEN players defending the corner, the clearance fell to a Croat with all the time in the world to recycle the play.
Brady said after the game Trap doesn't tell his full backs to kick it away.... maybe he doesn't. But at the end of the day Trap is picking players who are doing it.
Could we beat Italy and Spain?..... I think we could but not with what we brought with us and not by kicking the ball straight back to the opposition and letting them bring it to our box.
I thought we were better after the subs, qualifying and participating are completely different. We've watched that 11 play that way against Slovakia, Russia etc and never win a game. The whole script should have been ripped up after qualifying. I've no doubt the only reason McCarthy dropped out of the squad was to avoid being a bench warmer for the summer when his father was sick, I'd bet he'd have played if he was a starter, which he should be as it's mainly the CM links that are killing us here.
He might have got us there(we got lucky getting Estonia and Armenia nearly beat us to 2nd) but I don't think Trap is giving us our best shot at this, we are not as bad as we've been showing in top qualifiers and that last night.
They have Modric?... we have Keane.
A defeat there might have been a kick up the... needed. No lessons were learned.Quote:
Originally Posted by gilberto_eire