Printable View
I'd just like to ask people to remember who was making these crazy decisions over the past number of years. I'm as angered by the situation as anyone and I will not defend anyone just because it is my club. There are great people in the Galway United "family" that have been working their arses off for many years and continue to do so. Please don't tar them with the same brush.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffman
They are doing their best to put things right.
I'm sure there are, my point was about Sheppard. It is unforgiveable (if true) to have breached the contract of a player GUFC could have gotten a payday from. I hope ye are OK, never a dull moment at Seanies clubs!Quote:
Originally Posted by gufcfan
In today's Star that they survived a Revenue winding-up order last December (says Leeson, so make of that what ye will).
To be in that much trouble last year and then go and lose another couple of hundred grand this year is ridiculous.
Oh well if the CEO said it then it has to be true after all, he wouldn't lie to the media now; would he?
But thats the point Stu, clubs are not kids (despite behaviour patterns) and need to be responsible for themselves. Despite the numerous clubs that have flirted with disaster they almost all seem hell bent on repeating the same failed business plan (it will be different this time........)Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
what is staggering is that the clubs that agreed collectively to the need for licencing have appeared so hell bent on breaking every rule of it whenever they saw the chance.
I genuinely do not believe that points deduction would solve the problem, would suggest only when 1/2 clubs end up going out of business completely will the penny drop. Blaming the FAI for clubs malpractice is akin to blaming the Gardai for murderers (because they did not do enough to stop them)
While the clubs act like kids, I've no problems treating them like kids.
Your garda analogy doesn't work cos it's much easier to keep a track on 22 entities doing trackable things (building debt, not paying wages, etc) than it is to keep track of 5,000,000 people doing untrackable things (i.e. planning murders in their heads)
"I'll start treating you like a 26 year old when you start acting like a 26 year old"
http://www.channel4.com/assets/progr...57_200x113.jpg
Not disagreeing with you at all Stu but history shows that lessons are not learnt and I doubt that points deductions will change much. Seeing shams run trading deficit so soon after near destruction and Bohs, Drogs, Cork Derry,Shels all rush over the cliff edge leeming like despite seeing previous difficulties clearly shows that clubs still have the attitude that "this time it will be different"Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Unfortunatly I believe that only complete collapse of a club or clubs will see sanity prevail (and hope and pray it aint Bohs).
The example of the "big" foreign Leagues that so many of our football "fans" look up to is hardly inspiring. Football (more especially the clubs) appears to be the only business that consistently ignores the reality that surrounds it. Seanie Fitz must surely have a future in LOI :o
Derry and Cork have completely collapsed. Nothing changed.
Why are clubs spending too much? To win things. What would happen if you started docking points and issuing relegations? Those clubs wouldn't win things. And those clubs who are doing things properly (few and all as there are) would benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
It's not a cure-all; I just don't see what harm it could possibly do.
Shels/Derry/Cork were relegated and it changed little. Not arguing with you on stronger deterrent just dont think possible points deduction will be serious enough deterent.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
What I think is needed is to change the mindset of clubs about financial prudence and short of clubs going out of business I cant see that happening. points deduction may not do any harm although the infamous Pats/shels spat over points deduction not a good precedent as it definitely had a negitive effect on the League.
Shels, Cork and Derry weren't relegated until it was way too late. Derry and Cork had to go bankrupt before they were relegated. I'd have maybe given ye points deductions years ago for example; nip it in the bud as soon as possible.
if you iron out any loopholes, and actually enforce a punishment properly, then maybe other clubs would sit up and take notice. look at our situation last year - it broke pretty quickly, and there was a lot of debate and arguing about it, and everyone expected the worst. to be honest, most (sensible) derry fans were planning on at best gaining entry to the A-Championship. The fact that the FAI allowed a new legal/commercial entity direct entry to division one was another fudge. As a derry fan, Im eternally grateful that we got that chance and that we took it, but objectively speaking we were given a lot more than we had any right to expect.
Do all clubs not submit monthly accounts to the FAI as per licencing? If so, then any half decent accountant should be able to spot irregularities from month to month, and if such scrutiny and emphasis is placed on the initial budget proposals, then any great deviation from that should have an explainable cause. And yes, I know thats dependent upon the initial budget being even reasonably truthful and practical, but they've rejected budgets in the past for glaringly obvious no-nos, like budgeting for league positions at the end of the season. Realistically, every club should plan for coming last.
having rules in place wont stop the seasonal meltdown of some clubs, but maybe actually enforcing them will - short term pain for long term gain.
The Derry situation broke quickly in the end, but there had been warning signs. For example, it had been a couple of years since Wellvan filed accounts when it all went belly up. If the FAI had taken things more seriously, earlier, the meltdown just might have been avoided. (One would wonder what the monthly accounts looked like from them.. probably grand.)
Instead it was hands over the eyes stuff and then fudge it. No deterrent. Nothing learned by anybody. Except that if you don't have assets but are a relatively big club that the consequences of meltdown are not particularly serious. Hardly the lesson they were seeking to propagate.
Not to mention not paying the Conor Sammon transfer fee for months. A fiasco John Delaney had to personally intervene in just to get us paid, and yet no other penalties were dished out. (I don't count transfer embargoes imposed outside of the transfer window)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
And actually, I should correct myself (and marinobohs) - the FAI didn't relegate Derry and Cork at all. They actually promoted the new entities from the A league.
agreed, but there are warning signs at a lot of clubs - with bohs now its not a warning sign, its a big red alarm like on top of the ghostbusters car. but there are too many fans who look at the clubs future in the short term, and this gets replicated in otherwise half competent businessmen running the clubs of which they are fans. granted, no-one else will take on the role, but to me it is a factor. i work in an industry where reputation is pretty much everything, and what happened with us last year was and still is humiliating. i dont think the full story has come out yet, and watching the same head-in-sand attittude being adopted by quite a few clubs' is worrying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr A
and the whole accounts thing - that to me is one of the loopholes. if you have to submit monthly accounts to the fai, then they should be the same or correlate with the years end return to the tax man. it wouldnt be hard for the fai to make that a stipulation - submit the same year end accounts to the fai at the same time as HMRC/Revenue Commissioners. It's all public documentation anyway, isn't it? deviate and you're gone, no fudging or similar.
as for the consequences - the only people directly affected will be those involved in the previous business (i think a punishment is something like banning from holding a compnay directorship for three years), and those involved in the new business who plough in their own money to get the thing going. its why im not overly keen on the current popular club model, a holding company behind it all, but to be honest i cant see any alternative that doesnt involve huge supporter involvement, and lets face it, its hard enough getting people to go to the matches.
oh, and stu, the ucd and dungannon issue was a bloody disgrace, but any derry fans who actually mentioned it (and other difficulties) were quite often shouted down. i think one individual became pretty much persona non grata with the previous setup. but then, half the time he's persona non grata with the fai as well.
Not blaming Derry fans for it, just to be clear. Just pointing it out as another warning signs.Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
I agree with you on management accounts; they can tell what you want them to tell. I'd ask clubs to submit Revenue print-outs instead - an untamperable list from www.ros.ie that shows what you returned for each tax period and what and when you paid. Arguably more meaningful than management accounts too.
thinking about all this - is licencing really only bringing to light problems that would have existed anyway, they just maybe would have been easier to hide? there's been meltdowns and fancy financial footwork before (i think we're getting quite good at it to be honest), but maybe now licencing is bringing it all to a head, sort of like going cold turkey? just a thought that popped in.
Not really. Every club which has melted down in the past few years has done so without any help from licensing. If anything, Revenue are the big drivers in that regard - they targeted the league as high risk a few years back.Quote:
Originally Posted by shantykelly
i dont think licencing is the cause of the problems, im just thinking that maybe its helping bring it to light a bit better than pre-licencing. like i said, just a thought.