Kevin Foley

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

the latter was and probably would still have been a reserve at club level if not for an injury to his rival this season.

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Very skewed view - Kelly held on to his place as a Prem starter on merit.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

If a CB isn't fit then he shouldn't be brought. Even if it is JOS. Trap had several options by the way. He could have kept the original squad and if JOS or whoever was injured then he could have brought McShane in by the 10th. Or he could have brought 8 defenders in the first place like many people said he should have done. The only way that McShane is CB cover is if 4 out of Dunne, St. Ledger, O'Dea, O'Shea and Kelly are injured/suspended at the same time.

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The problem isn't just O'Shea - Dunne, St Ledger, O'Dea and Kelly are also carrying knocks. Dunne's only played a handful of games since dislocating a shoulder and O'Dea and Sledge only got injured in the last seven days.

Hindsight's great, but you have to give some credit to how quickly a fairly unlikely scenario has developed. This isn't something that could've been addressed simply by naming more centre backs or an extended panel.

However I agree in the sense O'Shea has been given more of a chance to recover than Foley. He's simply seen as more important. Which is unfortunate - if true

Feel very sorry for him. If there was ever a time to do 'a Keano' then that was the appropriate occasion!

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Very skewed view - Kelly held on to his place as a Prem starter on merit.



The problem isn't just O'Shea - Dunne, St Ledger, O'Dea and Kelly are also carrying knocks. Dunne's only played a handful of games since dislocating a shoulder and O'Dea and Sledge only got injured in the last seven days.

Hindsight's great, but you have to give some credit to how quickly a fairly unlikely scenario has developed. This isn't something that could've been addressed simply by naming more centre backs or an extended panel.

However I agree in the sense O'Shea has been given more of a chance to recover than Foley. He's simply seen as more important. Which is unfortunate - if true

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It's not a skewed view at all. Grygera was ahead of Kelly and then he got injured and missed the whole season. It's likely that if Grygera was fit then Kelly would have played his usual reserve role.

Yes, but as I said, McShane is only going to play CB if 4 out of the 5 are injured/suspended at the same time. If this were to happen we would be left without a RB anyhow as McShane , Ward and one of the five would be our only fit defenders.

It's not hindsight at all if people were saying it beforehand. O'Shea and Dunne's problems have been known since before the original squad. The knocks were known before Saturday's game yet Foley was still brought to Italy to train and was under the impression that he would play on Tuesday and be in the squad. It was handled badly. If you disagree then great.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

It's not a skewed view at all. Grygera was ahead of Kelly and then he got injured and missed the whole season. It's likely that if Grygera was fit then Kelly would have played his usual reserve role.

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Grygera made five PL appearances before doing his knee in November. Before that Hughes/Baird were operating at RB ahead of Kelly, so the fact he overhauled people to become first choice for Fulham's reasonably decent season second half is credit worthy. Since he made the position his own, there's zero to suggest it would be any different if Grygera is fit.

Simply put shouldn't credit go to actual achievement instead of speculatively denigrating? Kelly's been good value for Fulham, that's what's important.

Besides how does your view on Kelly fit since Foley hasn't been a first choice regular, when fit, since last year? Injury problems aside, he's been in-an-out of the Wolves team when ready to play.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

Yes, but as I said, McShane is only going to play CB if 4 out of the 5 are injured/suspended at the same time. If this were to happen we would be left without a RB anyhow as McShane , Ward and one of the five would be our only fit defenders.

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I think Trap wanted more natural cover at CB than Kelly. That's three injuries. Seems unlikely sure - but then so does going into a tournament with four of your five (Given included) starting defenders carrying knocks.

There's definitely a debate there on whether people would prefer to see Kelly (CB)-Foley (RB) than McShane-Kelly.

I'd be very unsure on either though Trap described McShane in the terms 'we needed another stopper' - despite his limitations, fair to say that McShane's more a stopper than either Kelly or Foley.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

It's not hindsight at all if people were saying it beforehand. O'Shea and Dunne's problems have been known since before the original squad. The knocks were known before Saturday's game yet Foley was still brought to Italy to train and was under the impression that he would play on Tuesday and be in the squad. It was handled badly. If you disagree then great.

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True Dunne and O'Shea's problems were known. But with O'Dea and St.Ledger fully fit, that's less problematic surely. With those two a bit doubtful, it changes the scenario.

Trap also added in the suspension factor and our back four are a cert to pick up bookings.

As for bringing him to Italy, I don't see how it makes much difference. He tells him on Friday/Saturday/yesterday, the disappointment's much the same.

There's an element of miscommunication between player-physios-manager which is really frustrating - but this is a tough situation, which sucks for Foley matter which way it's sliced IMO.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Simply put shouldn't credit go to actual achievement ...? Kelly's been good value for Fulham, that's what's important.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Grygera made five PL appearances before doing his knee in November. Before that Hughes/Baird were operating at RB ahead of Kelly, so the fact he overhauled people to become first choice for Fulham's reasonably decent season second half is credit worthy. Since he made the position his own, there's zero to suggest it would be any different if Grygera is fit.

Simply put shouldn't credit go to actual achievement instead of speculatively denigrating? Kelly's been good value for Fulham, that's what's important.

Besides how does your view on Kelly fit since Foley hasn't been a first choice regular, when fit, since last year? Injury problems aside, he's been in-an-out of the Wolves team when ready to play.

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I don't understand why you are trying to argue this. Grygera was signed on 30/8. He started 5 of Fulham's next 7 PL games and was first choice at that time. It is a 100% guarantee that if Grygera had stayed fit that Kelly would have played less during the season.

Your views on Foley indicate your own bias or lack of knowledge in the area. Foley only missed games last season due to injuries. When he was fit, he played. Simple.

I feel very sorry for Kevin. I don't see why the 23 is anounced until the very last minute.

It would be better to have the extended squad and then when the final 23 is announced there would not be such a focus on one individual.

I believe that Trap is doing it for the good of the squad but its still very hard on Kevin.

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It's not hindsight at all if people were saying it beforehand. O'Shea and Dunne's problems have been known since before the original squad. The knocks were known before Saturday's game yet Foley was still brought to Italy to train and was under the impression that he would play on Tuesday and be in the squad. It was handled badly

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I think this was the problem here, Foley was told not to train Thursday and Friday according to what he was saying in the papers, ruling him out completely of the Bosnia game, yet Trap chose to bring him to Italy, and let him train, let it build up for him, yet to me it seems like Trap was thinking for the last week at least, since he called McShane up and subsequently played him against Bosnia, of always keeping McShane around. He led Foley along, which is very wrong, he could and should have handled this a lot better, and it has nothing to do with hindsight, nor has it anything to do with not naming 29 man squads, had he done this, there wouldn't be a problem. He knew he had players who were injured before he named his 23 man squad, by adding an extra 3 or 6 whatever, he would have avoided this. The more I think about it the more I realise how bad Trap got it wrong. For a fella who never stops going about the leetle details, he has ignored some massive ones here. His communication or miscommunication or whatever you want to call it is really skewed as well.

I think Trap feels he made a mistake in calling foley instead of McShane and this was his only way around it. In fact i would go to far as to say, he hoped that Foley wouldn't be fit in time before he sent the final squad to UEFA, avoiding such a scenario. Its very underhanded to tell him not to train and then do what he did. He got the choice wrong in his mind, and hope injuries would fix it for him.

Is it paranoia to think trap planned this and simply waited till he was out of the country to call up the Pauls ?

Tough break for Foley and you'd have to feel sorry for him.

That said, I hope the "meeja" move on with this quickly and it doesn't become a dominant issue for the next week and a half. We've a tournament to prepare for and the last thing anyone needs are attempts to create "division in the camp" stories like 2002.

I'd say Gary Waddocks phones been ringing all day.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

By turning up to every squad that he was picked for which is the majority of Trap's squads. And then by starting an enormous 5 matches out of Trap's 44 when he has watched the likes of McShane and Kelly start 15 and 16 times even when the former has become a Championship journeyman and the latter was and probably would still have been a reserve at club level if not for an injury to his rival this season.


If a CB isn't fit then he shouldn't be brought. Even if it is JOS. Trap had several options by the way. He could have kept the original squad and if JOS or whoever was injured then he could have brought McShane in by the 10th. Or he could have brought 8 defenders in the first place like many people said he should have done. The only way that McShane is CB cover is if 4 out of Dunne, St. Ledger, O'Dea, O'Shea and Kelly are injured/suspended at the same time.

He also said he didn't want to name a 26-man panel or whatever to avoid disappointing people. What he's done here is far worse. He's led a player to understand that he will be in the squad for weeks IF he gets himself fit. Said player has got himself fit and has family/friends with their tickets booked. Then at the 11th hour the player is told 'you're fit, great but we're bringing MCShane in to cover the potentially injured CB's' WTF.

I see it as a case of stringing along and it's extremely unfortunate that it happened to the player who I think has been in my opinion let down a bit over the years by Trap.

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A few points are worth debating here:

When Foley did play for us he never really did that well. In particular he was ball watching when his 3 co-defenders stepped up to play offside, and as far as I can recall only Westwood saved the day against Macedonia. I actually really like Foley and always look for the best in players, but I have generally been underwhelmed by his Irish performances.

Kelly has always been solid if unspectacular and can cover across the back 4. He played LB in last night's warm-up game. So what if he might not have been first choice at Fulham? He took his chance and took it well. Sure you could say that James MacClean wouldn't have got his chance is Steve Bruce hadn't been sacked. There's lots of "ifs" in life.

Trap isn't obliged to start people just because they keep turning up. There's a predicatble first ranking 13~15 players. Anyone else only gets his chance due to contingencies.

JOS should be given every chance to prove his fitness but Trap is also right to be firm with him.

McShane could be CB cover if another CB cover is required to deputise for either full-back.

Anything can happen with McShane in the team! We all have reservations but hopefully he won't let anyone down.

It's bloody tough on Foley but objectively justifiable. As John Maynard Keynes famously said "when the facts change, I change my mind".

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Originally Posted by mark12345

Is this the same McShane who's been moved on from United to Sunderland to Brighton to West Brom to Hull City, and has not figured in the campaign for the Euros. McShane is one of the worst defenders we have ever produced. Foley on the other hand has bags more ability, even if he has to cover in the middle. Ridiculous decision by Trap - just to think we have a squad with Paul Green and Paul McShane in it. Let us pray to Saint Paul for salvation.

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Foley in my view is finished as a player at the top level, I've heard many insiders at Wolves comment about his fitness in the last two seasons and how repeated injuries has damaged his ability beyond repair. Once upon a time he was a great player with a bright future, he's unfortunately crocked and heading for championship obscurity now. The fact that him and Fahey in their current state were called into the squad to begin with shows how thread bare we are in terms of a quality pool.

I don't agree with his treatment in this case but its ridiculous to say the Foley of 2012 has bags more ability in the context of a tournament. The lad could seldom string two weekends together for Wolves this year let alone asking him to be involved in 3 high intensity games in 12 days.

It's unusual to be shafted once you're in the squad. From that point of view, Foley's expectation levels of continuing to be a part of the squad would have been very high and now this. From a football point of view he won't be missed unless there is a rare accumulation of cards/injuries.
I don't have an overview of Foley's ability in his games for Wolves, at times he showed he has ability, in equal measure at other times he was badly exposed and then he has been injured a lot.

And have to say I'm getting a bit tired about the rantings against McShane and Green around here. When did we become a group of supporters who regularly mock their own players?
A lot of people dredge up McShane against France what about his performance against the Czechs when we were down and out? He was a colossus that day. Or Green sticking his head where others wouldn't put their feet to score his first goal? Newsflash our opposition are better players than us, the only way we'll beat them is getting in their faces constantly with incredible energy and discipline over 90 minutes. Limited but spirited mad men are exactly what we need.

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Originally Posted by Murfinator

its ridiculous to say the Foley of 2012 has bags more ability in the context of a tournament. The lad could seldom string two weekends together for Wolves this year let alone asking him to be involved in 3 high intensity games in 12 days.

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Good luck with that assessment. Foley HAS bags more ability than McShane.

And I don't know what you're like as a player, but take a few years and a few more pounds off me and I can promise you I have more ability than McShane. But still not enough to make the Ireland squad. If you're hanging your hopes on Paul Mac then good luck to you. I will bow to your better judgement and hold my hands up after the tournament and say I was wrong if that turns out to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

I don't understand why you are trying to argue this. Grygera was signed on 30/8. He started 5 of Fulham's next 7 PL games and was first choice at that time. It is a 100% guarantee that if Grygera had stayed fit that Kelly would have played less during the season.

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Well done for missing my point. Your 100 per cent guarantee is worthless and irrelevant - Kelly was Fulham's regular right back when there were other options over than a crocked 32-year-old and when the team was playing well. It deserves credit.

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Originally Posted by Irwin3

Your views on Foley indicate your own bias or lack of knowledge in the area. Foley only missed games last season due to injuries. When he was fit, he played. Simple.

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For goodness sake. Although you're still missing the point, let's clear this up because your arrogant accusation of lack of knowledge is a real downer on my lunch hour.

Foley made four squad appearances, not a single start before injuring himself badly at the start of the season.

After recovering in January, he started 11 games, was a used sub in 3, an unused sub in two and not in the squad four time. He was dropped twice.

Towards the end of the 2011 season he was also dropped twice by McCarthy, while making nine starts, three sub appearances and one as an unused sub.

Now - before you get all tetchy and start down some road to irrelevancy ("He played most of the games!" or "He fought his way back from injury!") let me make something clear.

I think Foley is a very good right back, who would be on my plane to Poland and would be in possession of more than eight caps if only the FAI had of taken my Football Manager based CV more seriously.

However I only mentioned Foley's appearance record to make a point about Kelly - that injuries, form and manager pressure can combine to push a player down a pecking order. And if the player is to return to the side, as Foley and Kelly have, after being dropped, then fair play to them.

Taking an argument for one and then refusing to apply it to another is the height of...well, bias, funny enough. Cheers for bringing it up.

Probably best to get back on to the situation at hand...

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

I think this was the problem here, Foley was told not to train Thursday and Friday according to what he was saying in the papers, ruling him out completely of the Bosnia game, yet Trap chose to bring him to Italy, and let him train, let it build up for him, yet to me it seems like Trap was thinking for the last week at least, since he called McShane up and subsequently played him against Bosnia, of always keeping McShane around. He led Foley along, which is very wrong, he could and should have handled this a lot better, and it has nothing to do with hindsight, nor has it anything to do with not naming 29 man squads, had he done this, there wouldn't be a problem. He knew he had players who were injured before he named his 23 man squad, by adding an extra 3 or 6 whatever, he would have avoided this. The more I think about it the more I realise how bad Trap got it wrong. For a fella who never stops going about the leetle details, he has ignored some massive ones here. His communication or miscommunication or whatever you want to call it is really skewed as well.

I think Trap feels he made a mistake in calling foley instead of McShane and this was his only way around it. In fact i would go to far as to say, he hoped that Foley wouldn't be fit in time before he sent the final squad to UEFA, avoiding such a scenario. Its very underhanded to tell him not to train and then do what he did. He got the choice wrong in his mind, and hope injuries would fix it for him.

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Couldn't have put it better if I tried. You have hit the nail on the head there Paul.To lead a guy into believing his place wasn't in danger and then to pull the rug from under his feet like this is really bad man management.

FFS.

Kevin Foley on Joe Duffy.

Joe is orchestrating a campaign to get Kevin re-instated.

Except I don't fully agree with POS' assessment. Of course Trap led Foley to believe he was in the squad. Trap named him in the squad because he wanted him there.

Then the facts changed. O'Shea's injury isn't clearing up quickly enough. In fact as far as I recall Foley was named in the squad before JOS injured his ankle against United, contrary to Paul's point.

O'Shea's situation is the potential game changer. He is first choice right back, first reserve centre-back and probably first reserve left back. This therefore affects Kelly's standing in the squad because Kelly is first reserve for John O'Shea.

Also, O'Shea's injury is an ankle twist I think. These are notoriously prone to re-injury unless given time to heal and do strengthening work on a wobble-board. I can speak from experience.

Then came the knocks to Sledge and O'Dea.

The part of Trap's explanation that I don't support is the part about bookings. Our defenders were as prone to bookings before all this as they are after it.

The chances of Foley ever setting foot on a pitch this summer in midfield were minimal.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

FFS.

Kevin Foley on Joe Duffy.

Joe is orchestrating a campaign to get Kevin re-instated.

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Really? What's Foley saying?