Eligibility Rules, Okay

It remains to be seen what impact, if any, the appointment of Michael O'Neill as manager of the IFA's senior team will have on matters. I recall MNS did a feature on the eligibility issue during the Summer (I think it was around our fixture with NI in the Carling Nations Cup) and O'Neill gave his two cents on things. He didn't appear to be up-to-speed with the rules, but then he was with Rovers and wasn't the manager of an international team at the time. I remember he talked of limiting the number of times a player eligible for more than one association may change his allegiance throughout his career, seemingly failing to realise there already was a limit of one change in place, and also suggested the introduction of an age cap by which a player's allegiance ought to be decided if already capped by an original association. The problem with that is that FIFA scrapped the age cap from their statutes a few years ago.

The appointment of O'Neill is completely inconsequential with regard to the eligibility issue. The CAS judgment has dealt with this issue comprehensively and whatever personnel come in and out in the IFA will have absolutely no impact when it comes to changing the status quo.

As regards footballing matters, NI have got themselves a good manager, without a doubt but I feel the task he faces is similar to that with Rovers in the Europa group stages, the gulf in class is simple to vast to make a difference.

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Originally Posted by French Toasht

The appointment of O'Neill is completely inconsequential with regard to the eligibility issue. The CAS judgment has dealt with this issue comprehensively and whatever personnel come in and out in the IFA will have absolutely no impact when it comes to changing the status quo.

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That's true. I'd been more wondering how young undecided players from nationalist backgrounds might take to him as someone from a nationalist background who played for NI and managed a team in the League of Ireland. If even they're aware of his story. I'd heard the name before, but it wasn't until he took over at Shamrock Rovers that he really entered my conscience of thought.

How did they take to Sammy McIlroy?

Is O'Neill the first NI manager with a nationalist background?
Sounds to me, the IFA wanted to appoint someone like that, with some football credentials of course and he was their only candidate.
He won't rock the IFA boat.
It's an unusual situation for an association to have to think for ways to persuade players, who not that way inclined, to chose the IFA.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Is O'Neill the first NI manager with a nationalist background?
Sounds to me, the IFA wanted to appoint someone like that, with some football credentials of course and he was their only candidate.
He won't rock the IFA boat.
It's an unusual situation for an association to have to think for ways to persuade players, who not that way inclined, to chose the IFA.

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In fairness based on most recent managerial performance I would go for O'Neill myself.

Dowie started well a few years ago but it went downhill at a fair belt. Magilton was average at Ipswich and was again average at QPR. And there has'nt exactly been a stack of clubs after Dowie or Magilton which is a tad surprising because when you get on the managerial carousel the same people often keep re-appearing.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Is O'Neill the first NI manager with a nationalist background?
Sounds to me, the IFA wanted to appoint someone like that, with some football credentials of course and he was their only candidate.

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His "nationalist background" will not have been a factor in the IFA's decision making process.

None of the candidates on the IFA's final shortlist of three are from a "unionist background", unless you bracket Dowie in that categoiry.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

His "nationalist background" will not have been a factor in the IFA's decision making process.

None of the candidates on the IFA's final shortlist of three are from a "unionist background", unless you bracket Dowie in that categoiry.

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I did not claim that any of the candidates were from a Unionist background, however, Dowie is not from a Nationalist background. And O'Neill is the first nationalist manager appointed as manager of NI.
It's true that I can't read the minds of the IFA but I would not dismiss the 'nationalist background having an influence' theory out of hand.
There are 2 issues, NI needs a capable manager and the fear that the trend of nationalists declaring for the FAI will continue. O'Neill has genuine credentials but nothing too spectacular that would stand him above Dowie and Magilton and none of those 3 come close to the experience of Kerr whose interest in the job was not even acknowledged. I would guess that O'Neill would have been third choice of the 3, by the OWC fans.
Seeing as you can read the minds of the IFA, what was the factor in the IFA's decision making process that perceived Kerr as not even being worthy of a response?

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Originally Posted by geysir

Seeing as you can read the minds of the IFA, what was the factor in the IFA's decision making process that perceived Kerr as not even being worthy of a response?

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This, too, confused me. Those who were against Kerr, suggested that he "started the poaching".

Well, Kerr had made welcome (from the IFA perspective) statements about how the eligibility situation, as it developed, had unfair affects on the IFA and was in favour of some restrictions being imposed.

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Originally Posted by geysir

Well, Kerr had made welcome (from the IFA perspective) statements about how the eligibility situation, as it developed, had unfair affects on the IFA and was in favour of some restrictions being imposed.

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Indeed. Like Iain Dowie, he also has "blood connections" to OWC, so to exclude him on grounds of not being connected to Norlin Airlann, would be strange. I wonder does his being a Dub have anything to do with it? Or the fact that his Faroe Islands team frustrated the IFA's efforts during qualification and managed what Worthington could not in beating Estonia.

The IFA will hope that Michael O'Neill can replicate the success he achieved at Shamrock Rovers: bringing an Irish team to the group stages of a European tournament. Although Kerr's past successes with Irish teams seem to have been unduly overlooked.

Of course Michael O'N's background was an issue.
As in potentially appeasing nationalist defectors.

But to be fair to the North, Fergie, Moanrinhio & Guardiola could all jointly be in charge and they'd still be sh*te.
They just don't have the players, currently.

And be interesting to see if they ever will, again...

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Originally Posted by geysir

Well, Kerr had made welcome (from the IFA perspective) statements about how the eligibility situation, as it developed, had unfair affects on the IFA and was in favour of some restrictions being imposed.

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You mean Kerr talked out of his arse like so many others. :)

Interesting photo of Liam Boyce with two Cliftonville players in the Felons Club, Belfast the other night (tweeted by himself): http://yfrog.com/od8x1vtj

Didn't go down too well on OWC.

Maybe Michael O'Neill will also pop in, along with 'Agent Gerry'?

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Originally Posted by geysir

what was the factor in the IFA's decision making process that perceived Kerr as not even being worthy of a response?

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I honestly don't know - he would have been my choice, for sure.

Good luck Michael O'Neill anyways. Any word on his number two?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I honestly don't know - he would have been my choice, for sure.

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Isn't Kerr friendly with figures within the IFA? I know he shared the IFA's flight from the Faroe Islands after their game and I think I recall you having spoken of his attendance at functions or something of the sort run/organised by the IFA.

A beggar getting a lift with the IFA, with the barely concealed satisfied grin of a job well done.
Maybe the IFA have a different recollection of their time, sharing the ride home with Brian :)

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Originally Posted by Michael O'Neill

That is my primary objective – to restore a sense of belief and pride in what it means to represent Northern Ireland so that our players will want only to play for their country. That is how it should be.

http://www.irishfa.com/news/item/698...ional-manager/

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Off to a good start.

Taking bets on the first usage of "Roman".

O'Neill has not disputed the right to change, but he has said that he doesn't think playing for your national team is what international football is about. One wonders what he thinks international football is about. Confusion reigns.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Isn't Kerr friendly with figures within the IFA? I know he shared the IFA's flight from the Faroe Islands after their game and I think I recall you having spoken of his attendance at functions or something of the sort run/organised by the IFA.

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Indeed.

He has spoken at various events organised by the IFA Community Relations Department.

I interviewed him at one such event.

To be effectively ignored for the post surprised me and many others.

"New NI boss Michael O'Neill 'will tackle' eligibility issue": http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/16353548.stm

Contains an audible interview with former NI goalkeeper Tommy Wright.

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Tommy Wright believes new Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill will tackle "head on" the issue of players switching to the Republic of Ireland.

Former Northern Ireland keeper Wright, a close of friend of O'Neill, believes the new manager will use his "personal skills" to convince players to stay with the country of their birth.

...

"Also some of the players who have gone to play for the Republic haven't been capped yet (by the Republic) so the door can still be opened to them.

"Michael will work hard to get as many people as possible available for selection."

Northern Ireland-born players who have switched to the Republic but have not yet been capped in competitive internationals include Stoke's Marc Wilson and Preston's Daniel Devine.

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Not sure about Devine but surely Marc Wilson has been capped in a competitive international given he's been playing for our teams since under-18 level?

Also came across this nugget on OWC yesterday:

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Another question surrounding eligibilty..

Is there an existing NI international, born outside of the UK, that posseses only an Irish passport?

If so, would that prove that irish nationality allows you to play for 2 diffent countries and therefore the same conditions that apply to the home nations would also apply. i.e. you, your parents, or grandparents have to have been born in the area of the association that you want to play for.

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The subsequent face-palm hurt more than my Christmas hangover, and that had been pretty bad.

"Capello hits out at player 'theft'": http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/291220...yer-theft.html

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Fabio Capello has questioned Germany's use of players with Turkish origin at last summer's World Cup and called upon football's rulers to end the "theft of talent" that goes on between teams.

England's 4-1 defeat to the Germans in Bloemfontein remains a major stain on his otherwise impressive managerial CV. The Three Lions were completely undone by a squad that contained 11 players who had an opportunity to represent another country, including star man Mesut Ozil, plus Miroslav Klose and Lukas Podolski, who both scored in the rout.

"A line needs to be drawn," Capello said, in comments reported at the Dubai International Sports Conference. "Richer clubs are talent-scouting and stealing players by bidding higher and not thinking about the consequences for those countries."

He added: "These players are acquiring new passports. Germany had five of Turkish origin who opted to represent them and we all know what happened. Problems need to be addressed. Decisions need to be made. Players can be bought, especially when they come from poorer backgrounds, where their families need the financial resources.

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He denied the accusation of double standards given he has capped Manchester United striker Danny Welbeck, much to the frustration of Ghana, who were hopeful of persuading the 21-year-old Mancunian to represent the country of his parents' origin.

Capello said: "Ghanaian journalists have asked me why I selected Danny Welbeck to play for England because now he cannot represent Ghana. But this isn't true. He was already at Manchester United. Before the selection I called his father and asked if I could select the boy. The father took time before agreeing to the selection."

"It was a personal decision, I spoke to the family and they were fine with their son playing for England. He was born and brought up in England. The rest of the German national team players were born in Germany or have never played for the national team of their origin."

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I think Capello could do a bit of homework. There is no difference in theory that I can see between, say, Mesut Özil and Danny Welbeck.

Matthias Sammer responded critically: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...ts-shared.html

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But Federation sporting director Matthias Sammer insisted Germany were blameless and that Capello had failed to grasp how immigrants settling there deserved equal opportunities.

Ozil was born in Gelsenkirchen, as a third-generation immigrant, and although his World Cup team-mates Lukas Podolski and Miroslav Klose were born in Poland, they moved to Germany as small children.

'Immigration is a social development that we react to in a proper way and I can assure Capello that we never entice players away from other countries,' said Sammer.

'That is something we would never even contemplate and I simply cannot understand what he is saying. It is the duty of sport to welcome players under these circumstances.

'When our country opens its doors to immigrants, so does the Federation and that is only right.'

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It's probably worth pointing out that Capello is a moron.

Sure wasn't it only fairly recently that the DFB relaxed the rules on who could actually represent Germany.
As far as I am aware and someone correct me if I'm wrong but there was some rule in placed that said that only "pure" Germans aka those with a German mother and father who have a German mother and father could represent Germany hence the seeming influx from the year 2000 or so.

Heading out the door now for beer so haven't got time to check that one out but it is in my mind's eye that some rule like this existed.

Also, whilst we are on the subject, It seemed that Capello didn't see France from 1998 onwards eh?

If Capello's point relates to clubs poaching players from all parts of the world, rather than national federations poaching players, then I'm fine with that.

Of course it's great that a kid from a latin American backstreet can carve a career at a club like Barcelona or wherever, but let's face it - despite FIFA's rules on exploitation of young talent, exploitation is exactly what goes on. Nobody hears about the losers separated from their families as teenagers who don't become stars. An article in 442 recently (the same issue that highlighted the holistic and unified approach taken to youth development in Uruguay - October?) spoke of children being lured from desperately poor African villages, just as young girls are from poor eastern Europe. Modern day slavery basically.

One one hand Arsenal can be commended for blooding Cesc Fabregas at 16, but the only reason they got anywhere near him was because the minimum legal age for awarding a prefessional contact was lower in UK than in Spain.

Football does great things for underprivileged children globally, but the flipside is that many are badly exploited and we casually support it by admiring the end-product of the relatively few who benefit. Football needs to get serious about its moral responsibilities, and international labour law needs to recognise the exceptions posed in the football context.

Except that's as likely as the equally admirable aim of 'World Peace' ?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

It's probably worth pointing out that Capello is a moron.

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Quite an astonishing display of ignorance by Capello.

couple of items Radio Ulster this morning including an interview with MON

Jim Gracey not noticing the big grey animal with a trunk in the room

MON - seems to be going down 'you will have a better chance of an ntentional career with N'I route which is fair enough

Are the IFA becoming bully boys now in the sense that they will be putting huge pressure on young lads from the north to make the play for NI?

I wonder if MON will now start throwing 17 and 18 year old's into competitive games to tie them down - is that not a bit unfair too?

I reckon players from the North should always be allowed the choice without being bullied into making a decision.

This issue was discussed again on Talkback earlier this afternoon, in light of Michael O'Neill's appointment as NI boss.
(It takes up the first half of the program)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b018wf0q

No pain is too deep that a bit of compensation cant rectify ;)

Wendy probably getting tired after decades of this compo culture mentality, as the discussion from the owc reps rambled on and on about compensation, finally intervened to move it on, she was later accused of having a sectarian agenda :confused:

Fair play to the listener who said that it was offensive to state that nationalists were declaring for another country when in fact they were declaring for their country. Not that that made the slightest impact on the OWC reps who kept on repeating that were declaring for another country.
My advice would be if the OWC reps are serious about stopping the flow then they should stay off the airwaves. They just can't help themselves.
And what I learned was that in order to have a change in NI, you have to ask the right question first, i.e.how much will it cost for you to feel compensated?

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Originally Posted by geysir

No pain is too deep that a bit of compensation cant rectify ;)

Wendy probably getting tired after decades of this compo culture mentality, as the discussion from the owc reps rambled on and on about compensation, finally intervened to move it on, she was later accused of having a sectarian agenda :confused:

Fair play to the listener who said that it was offensive to state that nationalists were declaring for another country when in fact they were declaring for their country. Not that that made the slightest impact on the OWC reps who kept on repeating that were declaring for another country.
My advice would be if the OWC reps are serious about stopping the flow then they should stay off the airwaves. They just can't help themselves.
And what I learned was that in order to have a change in NI, you have to ask the right question first, i.e.how much will it cost for you to feel compensated?

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Have to laugh, compensation, compensation, compensation quite pathetic really, you would of thought that they may have argued for a declaration at a certain age. As if financial compensation would in any way be a runner with FIFA.

Favorite bit was when Wendy read out a text 'we have a FIFA vice president get him to propose play for the country you are born in ........job done' absolutly delusional

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Originally Posted by Newryrep

MON - seems to be going down 'you will have a better chance of an ntentional career with N'I route which is fair enough

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Agreed.

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Originally Posted by davegaasports

Are the IFA becoming bully boys now in the sense that they will be putting huge pressure on young lads from the north to make the play for NI?

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No. It's hardly bullying to lobby NI under-age internationals to remain available for selection for the senior team. Of course some will never have played for NI at any level, perhaps through their own choice. Fine, their decision. Bye

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I wonder if MON will now start throwing 17 and 18 year old's into competitive games to tie them down - is that not a bit unfair too?

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I doubt this will happen. First, no-one in our U-19 and U-21 teams stands out as good enough; second, it's pointless making the lielihood of defeat even higher- Worthington and Beaglehole's tactics are discredited; third, it doesn't guarantee the players will continue to turn out for NI. International football isn't a press gang.

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I reckon players from the North should always be allowed the choice without being bullied into making a decision

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They are and they aren't, respectively.

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Originally Posted by Newryrep

you would of thought that they may have argued for a declaration at a certain age. As if financial compensation would in any way be a runner with FIFA

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Fair enough, although the declaration need only apply when an adult player (ie over 18) actually plays nternationally.

You do realise that declaration at a certain age may not be a runner either with FIFA; it may be that the next change to eligibility rules makes it even easier to change countries...

Thought that was one of the better discussions I've heard aired, bar the puzzling references to a "sectarian agenda". :confused:

Gary McAllister of the AoNISC:

"Any manager wants to pick from the biggest pool of players available to him."

The pool of players available to Michael O'Neill has not been diminished, nor would that pool increase if FIFA prevented the FAI from selecting northern-born Irish nationals. It would remain the exact same and ultimately players would still have the choice whether or not to represent the IFA.

What exactly is this "closure" of which he speaks? To me, it's just another word for the IFA/NI fans unconditionally getting their way. I always understood this to have amounted to closure for all parties concerned: http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/docu...ard%202071.pdf

McAllister mentions "previous statutes" in relation to place of birth, place of parents/grandparents birth and residency with the implication being that some new statute has paved the way for northern-born Irish nationals to declare for the FAI. I get the feeling he hasn't read the CAS judgment because the general principal always has been based on nationality (and, more recently, nationality not dependent on residence). As far back as 1946, the eligibility requirement outlined in article 21 of the Regulations of FIFA was that players be "subjects" of the country for whom they wished to play.

As Aiden Fitzmaurice points out with the case of Michael Keane switching from the FAI to the FA recently, it is not the IFA who suffer uniquely in the world of football from players switching association. McAllister also fudges the argument of the caller who highlights that these players are declaring for their country rather than "another country" by focusing on an irrelevant distinction as far as this particular argument is concerned between citizenship (the statutes actually refer to "nationality" if he'd wanted to be über-pedantic about it) and passports as regards player eligibility. Essentially and in general, a passport provides FIFA with proof of citizenship/nationality, save in the IFA's case where they were granted an exception so as not to necessitate the possession of a British passport in order to play for them. Possession of British citizenship is still a requisite in that case though. It is up to the IFA to prove that by methods other than the production of a particular passport. In essence, however, the callers point still stands and is a crucial one; these Irish nationals are declaring for their country.

Generally, the compensation argument is riddled with practical pitfalls. It's also questionable as to whether it's morally compelled by current circumstances or even justifiable in the first place. A few issues/counter-arguments off the top of my head:

• Players are not the possessions or servants of associations. Unlike club football, international football is entirely voluntary rather than contractual; thus, no obligations arise from the conduct of either association or player with regard to player selection.
• Having a player sign a contract of service would be in breach of FIFA regulations.
• What about players like George McCartney or Stephen Ireland who opt out of international football or those who retire "early" from international football to further their club career? Ought the discretion to decide as to when it is suitable or acceptable for a player to retire be left to an associations under which they might have played once or twice? Does joining up for one training session compel a whole career of servitude? Where and when does the supposed obligation end?
• Who pays the compensation; individual players or associations?
• If compensation were to be introduced, the IFA would also have to recompense the FA for the likes of Oliver Norwood and Lee Camp or the FAI for the likes of Alex Bruce, Johnny Gorman and Ryan Brobbel.
• It's too simple to say that it's a waste of time and resources developing so-called defectors. The relationship between player and association is not a one-way relationship whereby only the player is a beneficiary. Players selected for international "duty" return the "favour" to both the association that has selected them and the fans who pay to watch them by providing their service or playing a role within whatever particular squad they are chosen. That is something of substance returned. Not that there is a strict duty anyway, but international squads are selected on a game-to-game basis; thus, even if selection did give rise to obligations, any obligation would cease once the player had performed his "duty" within that particular squad which then ceases to be. Take Shane Duffy, for example; he was called into IFA squads and offered what you might call "carrot caps" even after openly expressing his strong desire to switch association. Even with the knowledge of his intentions in mind, the IFA still deemed him the best or most suitable available candidate to them for a number of their squads, including a senior friendly. Otherwise they wouldn't have selected him. Duffy offered his service and provided them with an option. Duffy did not compel the IFA to select him nor were the IFA under any obligation to choose him. If NI fans want to moan about Shane Duffy taking the place of some other "poor bugger", blame the IFA for selecting whoever they deemed to be the best player available for the place in whatever squads he was chosen. It also must be remembered that Shane Duffy gave back quite a bit to the squads in which he was chosen. Likewise, there is more to an association than merely its senior men's international team.
• The families of players from nationalist backgrounds and their communities - or those delighted to see the likes of Darron Gibson in an Ireland jersey, in other words - make up a significant portion of the population north of the border and contribute substantially as taxpayers to the IFA's income. If their money goes towards training young northern-born lads who want to play for Ireland, fair's fair, no?
• How much do the IFA contribute to player development anyway? How is this quantified?

Like newryrep, I also particularly enjoyed the text suggesting that Jim Boyce propose to FIFA that players be allowed to play only for their country of birth; "problem solved". Irish nationals born north of the border are Irish by birth; Ireland is their country of birth. Problem solved, indeed...

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Originally Posted by Gather round

Agreed.

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Probably true, but a peculiar message for a mentor to impart upon a budding footballer with a bright future ahead of him. Essentially, it's saying, "Don't dare to dream; accept your limitations before all else".

Bright futures tend not to be unlimited in practice. Essentially it's actually saying 'By all means aspire, but at least consider a realistic alternative'.

The 'realistic alternative' still exists (in some form), should the 'dream' fail to materialise.

Oh woe on the player who has to trudge wearily back from the dream to the grind of the realistic alternative :)