I'm actually surprised nothing was brought up about Sagnol the way it was with Lennon. Must have close to 15 lads with senior caps and in the U21s with an African background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
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I'm actually surprised nothing was brought up about Sagnol the way it was with Lennon. Must have close to 15 lads with senior caps and in the U21s with an African background.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I think if he was actually appointed there'd be a sh1t storm that might force him out of the job fairly quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
Isn't it such an Irish thing though to say that " the PR side of things could be managed" with Sagnol but we hammer one of all time greats because we disagree with his current job. Sagnol is a racist, Robbie has bad judgement. There's a massive difference in the issues, and yet so would rather give Sagnol a pass
I’d suspect there’ll be a degree uproar if Sagnol is appointed by the FAI. I think there’s a degree of dilution compared to Lennon because the original comments were in French and the nuance of whatever was said is important, so what we are generally getting is second hand reporting and isolated quotes. I’m not defending him at all, just saying there’s a degree of uncertainty that I have, which I wouldn’t have if I was a native French speaker etc.
This bbc article does a decent job of showing the complexity and the range of reaction within French football. And it’s hard to gauge the validity of his explanations without having read the original interview… https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/29936578.amp
Does it though ?Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
It doesn't mention the comparison he made between Nordic & African players & needing the intelligence of the former. I think if you draw that particular comparison, on that subject, you know exactly what you're saying & are fine with saying it.
His follow up is a lot of, sorry if what I said offended you & attempts to somehow make it ok - rather, what I said was wrong & I should not have said it.
& I read African and African heritage players making the best of an ugly mess in the fallout, no more than that.
These days you often wonder, can following Ireland continue to keep getting worse & for how much longer ? Up step Sagnol and Clusterfcuk Canham to headhunt him. Christ.
I made it perfectly clear that what I was saying was relating to the PR side of the situation and was not a personal view.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
With the best will in the world this is the second time this weekend you've decided to take a personal shot at me and you've already been called out on it once. Maybe give it a rest now.
I don't want to get personal either but your posting style is very reminiscent of a certain poster on another forum and I can't help but wonder if you'd be better sticking to that (in my view dying) forum if you're going to persist with the unwarranted personal attacks.
FWIW I'm fairly interested in football and spend too much time online reading about and talking about it and I had somehow never seen or heard this Sagnol story, or maybe I did but had totally forgotten by now, so perhaps there just wasn't a critical mass of people who even knew, or he was never close enough to getting the job for anyone with a profile in the media to bring it up.Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
While with Lennon I remember feeling surprised at the time that not enough people were binging his history up.
Not really a statement on anything but it is funny how differently the same events can feel :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
I think the uproar will be mickey mouse and end very quickly, he will stick to his guns that he not a racist and was taking out of context and bulldoze through it
I think he is a racist, no one using the word Nordic to describe white people can be anything other than klan!
Nonsense cancel culture wasn't as rampant in 2014. Nowadays anything can be twisted to make you the bad guy. Once one person gets offended on behalf of others it's game over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Acornvilla
I'd 100% take Sagnol as Ireland manager.
Mackay's appointment has not gone down well with Hibs' fans, eg:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
https://news.stv.tv/sport/hibernian-...and-disgusting
And as Sporting Director, he's presumably got more influence at the club overall than a (mere) Head Coach.
While PR is important, imo it shouldn't be the only, or even the overriding, factor in determining whether someone is suitable for a post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
And as for "straight in", how is appointing someone immediately "worse" than waiting until he's had another job or two (other than peoples' memories being fresher)? Unless he's somehow rehabilitated himself in the meantime, he'd still be the same person whether now or in two or three years time.
Except he didn't work after Bordeaux, as a manager again until Georgia. 2016 to 2021. He was at Bayern Munich in 2017 & then a gap until his present job. Now, as you have said yourself cancel culture didn't hold such sway back then, maybe there is another reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
Also the players of African heritage who spoke out, and they were numerous, were not getting offended on behalf of others. So why say that ?
By all means have your opinion on cancel culture but maybe not bolt it onto this particular matter ?
How many spoke out? I haven't seen there was a huge amount to be honest. And others came out to defend him too as I recall.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
One of the main names that crops up who criticised the comments was a guy from New Caledonia, who absolutely was getting offended on behalf of others - New Caledonia not being in Africa.
I would say it's a difference of pure optics, but optics are important. Robbie Keane appointed in a few years after wiling away the intervening time in the States or the Championship or wherever is a guy with a bit of legacy baggage some would comment on, Robbie Keane appointed now provokes a ****storm as high as the Oireachtas. The FAI wouldn't want the latter, especially given how bad they already look recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Sagnol is a racist - and numerous black players did condemn him - those at the club were forced by the owners to come out in support of Sagnol to try and save his bacon and the club's reputation. Many spoke later about thisQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
His 'apology' could best be described as a 'non-apology apology' - in 2017 he was favourite for the Ghana job but they had to scrap the idea of appointing him shortly before it was due to be announced after an outcry by the people and a rebellion by the players. Sagnol had an opportunity to put his racism in the past when he was in for the Ghana job and he refused to do so.
The reason that Sagnol's racism hasn't been prominent as Lennon's misogynist antics is because Irish soccer is very Anglo-centric and when the racism row involving Sagnol blew up in France it was largely confined to French language media.Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
So if Gavin Bazunu says he would be uncomfortable working with Sagnol would you say that Ireland is not Africa so whats the problem?
Random hypotheticals are rarely worthwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Sagnol's comments were more on the nature of coaching in Africa as I recall, so should have little relevance to Bazunu though.
No no, you are the one who brought the New Calidonian guy into the discussion, and his right to be annoyed at Sagnols comment, so someone with African heritage could feel similarly.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Sagnol literally said that Africans needed Nordics in the team with them. That's as blatant a racist statement as you can make and people had every right to hammer him for it
Yes - but Sagnol's comments had nothing to do with African heritage, did they?
They were specifically at poor coaching techniques in Africa (not surprising really, given the lack of funds), which can lead to players who are technically not great and wouldn't have a top-level reading of the game.
A similar comment would be to say Irish players are cheap, technically poor, but they make up for that in terms of will to win to some extent. Is that racist? No it's not. It's probably true in fact. Would Bazunu have a right to be offended by it? Nope, cos it's not racist. Would Josh Cullen - of Irish heritage - have a right to be offended by it? Nope - cos he didn't come through Irish academy systems and the comments don't relate to him. (Plus cos it's not racist to start off with)
As you yourself say - it's really not that complicated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
"The advantage of what I would call the typical African player is that he isn't expensive when you sign him, [he is] a player who is ready for combat, but football isn't just about that," Sagnol said. Explaining himself, he continued: "Football is also [about] technique, intelligence. You need a bit of everything. You need Nordics too, Nordics are good."
Thats the comment from Sagnol. If you want make excuses for him and try find ways to justify it a long hard look in the mirror is needed!
The advantage of the typical Irish player is that he isn't expensive when you sign him. He is a player who is ready for combat, but football isn't just about that. Football is also about technique, intelligence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Racist? Or true?
How long are Everton fans singing about how little they paid for Séamus Coleman? Is that racist? How often are Irish players described as technically inferior but well up for it? Is that racist?
Nothing in that about heritage either, despite how eager you are to bring it into things.
Some people just get off on getting offended to be honest.
Not really aware of this Sagnol situation apart from what I have read here and on the manager thread, but in reading that extract purely from a football perspective my first interpretation is that African players are cheaper to sign as they are more raw and in need of more coaching on the technical and tactical areas. He didn't say they couldn't be coached or be top players. He also doesn't necessarily say Nordics are better but only that you need what they bring to a team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Is there a full transcript of what was said or was the above everything? If that is all that was said I can see how people would not be happy being called cheap, less skilled and lacking football intelligence (the same has been said of the Irish by many Europeans over the years), it seems more a statement to the quality of coaching than biological racial inferiorities.
Well yeah first of all it would be a bit racist to say Irish people lack intelligence. Isnt that the old racist joke the Brits used for years. Bit weird that you would try use that as an example to say something else isnt racist.... might show a lack of intelligence actually!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
But even leaving that part aside, Africa isnt one country. Instead of trying to use Ireland for comparison wouldnt you have to use another continent? Unless of course you just think all Africans are the same, which again leads to other questions....
This is spot on.. when Sagnol said African players in my opinion he is referring to black people from that continentQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I don't think he is including white South Africans or white Zimbabweans in his "analysis". I might be wrong and I actually hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.
Again he refers to White players as Nordics...who says that?
Morocco didnt show much of a lack of intelligence in the last world cup.... maybe they are just pale enough!Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Strawman comparison in its entirety and underhanded deflection.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
That's before you get to the many Africans from several countries who were playing top European level at that time, making what he said wrong, factually wrong, before you begin to examine the other aspects of it. We still await one Irish player at that level.
You agree these players got up to that level just by running hard ? You fine with Sagnol saying that ?
Interesting. Though not completely surprising.
He's clearly talking about footballing intelligence, not general IQ. But you go ahead and twist his words to insert your own offence anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
A dismissal with no attempt to engage in the point? I'm shocked. No, not shocked. Unsurprised is the word I'm looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Do you often use the absolute elite to make generalisations about a whole group of people Crafty? Or are just doing doing so here?Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
(BTW, you avoided the question looking to clarify that "many" people took offence - how many? I haven't seen many at all complaining about it.)
Would you use Roy Keane or Ronnie Whelan to extrapolate about Irish players in England in general? Is it wrong, factually wrong, to say Irish-born players are lacking in technical skills compared to those who come through other leagues because Roy Keane played for Cobh and made it to the very top?
The reality is Africa - in general - has poorly funded leagues (largely because Europe insists on taking any player with any sort of ability when they're young and cheap) and that translates into poor facilities and poor coaching compared to Europe. This is an undeniable fact. That some African-born players make it to the very top doesn't change that fact.
He may have generalised a bit, because it was an off-the-cuff remark at a press conference (I think). But it's not racist.
Then he could have said African players aren't as well coached as players from other parts of the world. But he used the word "intelligence" and then merely qualified it with "footballing intelligence". He also compared African players' "mentality" to Nordic players' mentality. Now, of all the places to focus on why compare Africa to Scandinavia? I can't put my finger on it, what is different between a generic African and a generic Scandinavian? I'm struggling here...Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
As JRG said, he was given the chance to explain and apologise and he gave a limp explanation and a non-apology.
But skills are developed, intelligence isn't. "Football intelligence" of course comes with innate and learnt skills, and is dependent on coaching. He really really could have explained his comments properly if he wanted to but chose not to and that's why I've no sympathy for him and I think his comments were racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Lads, could we knock the Sagnol discussion on the head please? This thread is for discussing Robbie Keane, and whatever value the comparison of their situations may have had was exhausted a couple of pages ago.
I'm sure when he used his words - which were in a different language - in a throw-away manner in a press conference he was thinking "I wonder how some random fellas in a different country speaking a different language are going to react to a translated version of my comments in ten years' time?"Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
For me it sums up all that's nasty about social media. People looking to be offended picking up on something said years ago which they wouldn't otherwise ever have heard, twisting it to suit their own agenda (RLP's comments on heritage, which are irrelevant) and ignoring other parts (such as your claim that Sagnol chose not to explain his comments or clarify he meant footballing intelligence - despite the fact he actually did exactly that at the time) and blowing the whole thing wildly out of proportion.
Anyways, as John83 says, it's a matter for another thread, so I'll leave it there.
Sure, you just leave it there with a post full of wrong, exaggerated and disingenuous claims and a thoroughly lame defence of the comments he made. Good man.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I actually liked some of the stuff the progressive democrats stood for, but you are sliding into Niall Boylan territory PineappleQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
While taking on board and agreeing with the mod request to leave this one be, a request already disregarded by you, I want to address this, Jolly Red Giant joined the discussion immediately after and spoke of the players who have come out since and the Bordeaux players who were strong armed into defending Sagnol at the time. There is also the half decade employment gap in his coaching prime, and the fact that The International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism (LICRA) said in a statement: "These abject theories are those that during the course of history have led to some kinds of men and women having their humanity denied."Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Still, nothing to see here according to you, just a few misguided lads online a decade later is it ?
Ok.
I think when dealing with this as a society the moron on the street using slurs is one thing, however it is those who refuse to acknowledge the wrong, concede, or make right & and even in your case, defend sentiments like those expressed are the far greater problem.
I drove this discussion over the last days, on here, to see if there would be discontent with his appointment, were it to happen, I think it is absolutely clear there would be.
Mod, apologies for this but I am done now.
The reason for Sagnol being brought up in this thread was the comparison to Robbie and how hirable they both would be for the FAI. Some are uncomfortable with Robbie based on where he currently works, I disagree but I can see the logical reasoning for that. Robbie will I hope most likely move on this summer after a successful season on the pitch and I think there will be a number of clubs lining up for him based on his debut season.
Sagnol also had a reasonably decent start to his club managerial career in France, but strangely wasnt able to get a club to touch him as a manager again afterwards. Im sure that had absolutely nothing to do with his perfectly fine comments about Africans in football. Youd think that a few Nordic owners of clubs would have had the intelligence to see through his comments and take them for what he really meant, not what he actually said.
I hope our discussion about him becomes irrelevant and he doesnt get near the Ireland job, because if he does and these comments become part of the public discourse in Ireland I firmly believe he'd be forced out of the job within months of taking over, much like Neil Lennon would have been. The FAI need to be able to see around corners on this one and see what would come their way.
Sagnol would have a few defenders in the country if he was hired, as proven on here, but for the most part they'd be of the ilk of that guy we all know who starts sentences with "Im not racist, but....".
Anyways, we'll leave it there so
It was a good chat, not a great chat Billlll.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
My personal "favourite"Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
" Where are you really from"....... If you've been unfortunate enough to witness that one
Well Neil Lennon is out of the picture at last - appointed manager of Rapid Bucharest - oh the fools, the fools
And while it should be in the other thread - Sagnol is a racist - his apology was a non-apology apology - and he has never made any effort to demonstrate he is not a racist or retract his comments, despite it coming up regularly.
Fatih Terim has been sacked by Panathinaikos. Loads of international experience,.
Its a legitimate conversation about a guy who is currently favorite for the Ireland job. The comparison to Robbies situation made it relevant to this thread so deleting would make me wonder whats the point of discussions on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Maybe move the Sagnol-related posts to the 'Runners and riders' thread.