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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It's fourth from the right at the bottom (next to reply). You can't miss it.
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Members have the option to edit their own posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It's fourth from the right at the bottom (next to reply). You can't miss it.
Aren't children born in the UK to a British citizen or to someone settled in the UK, automatically British citizens? St Ledger for example is definitely a British Citizen and I can't understand your motive in refuting it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
They clearly are British citizens, I don't see any reason to try and deny that. Dual nationality is a fairly simple concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Hmm. But they don't like many others born in Britain, have a British passport.
So once those people leave Britain, how would they remotely be 'British'?? The passport labels them an "Irish Citizen", on the inside front cover.
No probs with SStL, but he has an Irish passport to play for Ireland. How is he now 'British' ??
Know loads of 2G Passport-holders, with no British blood. Are they all so by default? That's a new one on me.
Maybe, but their passport is the same as mine. They have no British passport or ID (maybe an NHS medical no?), they are residents nothing more.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
I'm not sure where you're going with this, AB. Britain is similar to Ireland in that it grants citizenship unconditionally and doesn't revoke it. All English-born players for Ireland have dual British and Irish citizenship.
Ok, well no-one has ever offered my sisters born in the North any type of 'British' citizenship, nor would I ever expect them to.
Though it might well be their entitlement should they wish. Nor have they to my many 2G born friends.
They may too have an entitlement, but they are oblivious to this. So you can hardly say the Brit.establishment makes a big deal of seeking them out, whatever's "enshrined" etc.
Perhaps as an 'example', they try to embarrass Irish or other soccer players?
Though they seem far more keen to recruit dubious white Saffas to their cause.
They do not need to be offered it because they already have it, by virtue of being born in the UK. This applies whether they have an Irish passport or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
If they wish to address this, they would have to contact the relevant government department to have their British citizenship revoked.
Ok, take your word on that.
Though the evidence of people I know in Britain suggests otherwise.
Including people born there now living abroad.
So, to cut to the chase, you have no statistics to back up your previous assertion.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Righty ho.
It'll be interesting to see if any of the South's underage players tweet their support for England next summer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Once again, you confuse holding a Passport with Citizenship.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Deary me.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I'm afraid they're right, AB. British citizenship is acquired automatically by those born to other British citizens and those legally-settled in the UK. Possession of a passport would just be a form of proof of citizenship, but is by no means a pre-requisite in order for a British citizen to be considered a British citizen. (If I happened to lose my passport for a week tomorrow, I'd be dismayed to hear that my Irish citizenship was to be revoked for that week, but, of course, that isn't the case.) British citizenship can only be renounced by a declaration to the British Home Secretary.
Not quite right The Fly.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
The "official" National Anthem of the United Kingdom & Northern Ireland is God Save The Queen.
Unlike Scotland and Wales, we don't have an uniquely Northern Irish Anthem used at sporting fixtures.
Kane Ferdinands Facebook page backs that up!Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
:DQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Unless your skin blisters were born in Donegal, I've bad news for them.
Nor your own to disprove it...Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
;)
Accept what you say, so that makes all EU citizens there, Brits by default? As they are 'legally settled'.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
And the British have made it very difficult for some of their citizens to be such eg.staying in the country, especially if their parents weren't born there.
Or are non-white, or both.
I hadn't made a conscious attempt to demean it, as John Hewitt might have said. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
If anything, I was specifically intending to remain open to your profession; it was implicit recognition of your view in the sense that I have a personal idea of what it is to be Irish whilst I was acknowledging that you also have a personal idea of what it is to be Irish. Neither need be construed as myths simply because I failed to describe them both as "factual" or whatever. We all have different senses of what it means to be Irish; whether some are closer to some quasi-objective sense of Irishness is what is up for debate, I suppose. If I come across as being restrictive, it's more likely because I believe there to be some traits that are inherently incompatible with a quasi-objective form of Irishness I believe to exist rather than intentionally setting out to offend or insult. Our personal notions may exhibit differences but I don't think I set your identity on a pedestal below my own sense, or I didn't intend to "rank" them at least; I was merely trying to explore their exact nature and differentiate if needs required rather than rank. Likewise, when I use the word "sense" below, it's not part of a mindful attempt to invalidate your Irish identity or doubt its veracity. I thought it as good a word as any to describe what I see to be a different type/brand/idea/variety/whatever of Irishness from my own type/brand/idea/variety/whatever.
Are we in agreement that the two are probably quite distinct though or do you interpret my sense of Irishness as being one and the same as yours? If you acknowledge they are distinct by definition, then what terminology, if any, should we use to describe them respectively in recognition of the distinction? I'd refer to what I perceive to be your version as "Northern Irish", "British Irish" (as a singular entity separate from British alone rather than the dual/plural one individuals like Sean St. Ledger exemplified above possess) or maybe even the "Ulster(-Scots?) nation" to throw out a few terms for sake of distinction, but I have a feeling you'd object to that and re-assert that the aspect of your identity which we are discussing is simply Irish and nothing else. I have difficulty, however, reconciling as one what I see to be two exclusive identities, just as French or German cannot be also be Irish.
As part of some research I undertook recently for something I wrote on the roles that landscape and gender played in the formation of Irish national identity since the Irish state's independence, I happened to read an essay, 'Landscape, Space and Gender: Their Role in the Construction of Female Identity in Newly Independent Ireland', by Síghle Bhreathnach-Lynch. I thought it was quite interesting and somewhat relevant to this discussion, funnily enough. In brief, she wrote of how the Irish state projected a new and distinct sense of Irishness in order to emphasise an identity very much unique from that of Britain, its former ruler. Thus, Ireland was portrayed as "a bleak but beautiful countryside, peopled exclusively by a sturdy, Gaelic-speaking, Catholic people" and such a projection acted to provide an identity that was "instantly recognizably different from that of its former ruler Britain, which was perceived as urban, English-speaking and Protestant". Modern Irish identity - that channelled through the Irish state - is obviously rooted in the political history of Irish nationalism which sought to separate and distinguish Irishness from its former British umbrella. I suppose my own idea of what it is to be Irish is inevitably wrapped up in such a projection due to my cultural background and cues, although I still maintain it as primarily civic in nature rather than "ethnic"; my Catholicism has long since lapsed into an agnostic atheism, for example, and whilst I'd love to speak the Irish language with the fluency my mother exhibits, I don't believe that only Gaels are fit to be referred to as Irish. Your contrasting version stems from a seemingly-essential link with Britishness (not to suggest it's necessarily out-dated or obsolete either given the fact that part of the island still remains a part of the United Kingdom). I guess both are products of an Irish political reality whilst simultaneously helping to reinforce or bolster certain political ends.
As an aside, I do wonder if it's possible to have a nationality/national identity entirely free of any "ethnic" considerations, however? Most modern Western states purport to espouse a form of civic nationalism but if you take a look at their respective nationality laws, you will note that they do have to invoke limitations at some point which are fundamentally based on what you might called "ethnic" considerations. Not everyone born in France or the UK, for example, can declare themselves British or French by virtue of that simple fact; they must also satisfy other criteria rooted in a more ethnic sense of what it constitutes to be a national.
To me, it seems that the "distinction" of being Irish in such a context positions it as a subordinate or ancillary identity, not that that necessarily makes it non-Irish, but it is a distinction under the British umbrella. Can this sense of Irishness ever be separated from its seemingly-inherent Britishness? Is it malleable in that sense or would extracting it from its British overcoat make it something else entirely and no longer the identity with which you identify? Is it a sense of Irishness that could ever be reconcilable with the idea of a united Ireland independent from Britain/an Irishness completely independent of Britishness, I suppose is what I'm getting at?Quote:
"We add to the glory of being British, the distinction of being Irish" - to quote David Trimble, paraphrasing Emerson Tennant.
Which Ulster would that be though? :pQuote:
As John Hewitt wrote:
"I am a Belfast man, I am an Ulster man, I am British and I am Irish, and those last two are interchangeable, and I am European and anyone who demeans any one part of me demeans me as a person".
Yeah, well, the children of those legally settled there. By law, I have a feeling I'm a British citizen myself, although I was never aware of that until relatively recently. I've yet to follow it up and claim the passport, God forbid! :pQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
This would be the case, but the Protestant/unionist community has generally professed, even violently (albeit more so in the past), to be of a completely different nation despite how certain nationalist commentators might try to convince them otherwise: something along the lines of them essentially being duped Irishmen who've suffered manipulation at the hands of Britain and its interests; that the likes of Wolfe Tone were as proud and worthy Irishmen is any "native". That's met with staunch rebuke/accusations of condescension, however, so I'm not sure where that leaves them as regards being apparent children of the Irish nation. They don't really want to be part of it, or the non-British construction of it at least.Quote:
On that basis, I'd have thought that true Irish Nationalists would abide with a desire "to cherish all the children of the nation".
I have no problem embracing your Britishness, and I think I can come to terms with your British Irishness (as a singular identity distinct from the dual one), but when you refer to that as simply Irish, that's what I have difficulty with. As I see it, you can be British Irish, British and Irish, if you can see the difference to which I'm alluding? Possibly it's just an issue of semantics. Anyway, I'm just throwing thoughts out and giving myself a headache in the process; don't interpret it as me telling you what you are or what you are not.Quote:
Does that mean that Irish Nationals will only cherish me if I forego my British & Irish identity? - something that Irish Nationalists need to come to terms with, regardless of the Constitutional position on the island. Even in the event of a singular State on the island, British identity, expressed by Citizenship etc, will continue for generations of people born on the island - as per the Good Friday Agreement.
Can Irish Nationalists not embrace my Britishness, whilst celebrating my Irishness?
Ideally, but I guess other inhabitants opposing the interests of Irish nationalism and the native Catholic population with violence and subordination over centuries along with the calculated playing up of religious differences by those in control put a bit of an irreparable spanner in the works. Conflicting interests, in-group bias and all that...Quote:
I thought Irish Nationalists would at least have a soft spot for all people of the island of Ireland.
By and large, that's a fair statement, although I have encountered the odd idiot who, for some reason, responds to the prospect of the IFA changing the NI anthem with typical whataboutery: "Why do we have to change our anthem? You don't hear of the FAI having to change their anthem!" (See the recent discussion on BBC Radio Ulster about the anthem issue, for example.) It is merely a diversion tactic, mind, so probably not worth attributing a huge deal of significance to such opinions, in fairness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I always liked the one (not sure how true it is) about Kevin Kilbane turning up to an England training camp in an Ireland jersey and telling them where to go. :)Quote:
In my opinion the ROI team has always been a nationalist team with nationalist fans and nationalist players and a few British Citizens who realise they are not good enough to represent England and thus choose the ROI to further their club career prospects.
Never mind that.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I feel a mass letter-writing campaign should be instigated from Irish citizens in the North asking the Brit Home secretary, is it Teresa May, to revoke their British citizenship.
And elsewhere for that matter.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/si...ty/form_rn.pdfQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Just remember to use a black pen and block capitals. ;)
Let's just say some people I know will be receiving shortly...
;)
...and a spelling and grammar check. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Not a 'sporting fixture' maybe, but "Danny Boy" at the Commonwealth Games?Quote:
Unlike Scotland and Wales, we don't have an uniquely Northern Irish Anthem used at sporting fixtures.
Make sure they are aware of the consequences of renouncing their British Citizenship.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Correct - "Danny Boy" is not, however, an "official" National Anthem of Northern Ireland.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Please instigate this.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
You'd wonder why those smart cookies in PSF haven't thought of this.
Perhaps there are reasons why they don't.:D
I wonder what they could be?
French Toasht, prepare yourself for the possibility of pages upon pages of those circular arguments. http://foot.ie/images/smilies/wink.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Most people are unaware of it in any case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
DannyInvincible,
Some interesting points from you on identity up the thread - I'll get back to you with my thoughts on the issues you raise.
Should we move that discussion to the "Indentity" thread which exists elsewhere on the forum?
PSF would be well aware of Citizenship Laws.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
PSF??
Who they?
PSF = Predictably Savvy Fenians.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
I'm afraid I can't answer the question above about what rough proportion of NI youth players kick with which foot. It's more of a worry that their senior colleagues can't use either very well...
Heh, for once your answer makes more sense Great Rotundo...
:rolleyes:
No problem, Brit Boy. Always glad to help :eek:
I realise that. I was referring more to the general population.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
Yeah, reading up on it, by law I think I'm entitled to be a British Citizen also, my mother being born whilst on Holiday in England and me being born after 1/1/83. Must give Capello a call because Trapattoni hasn't answered any of my texts.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I'm suggesting that if there were any "benefits"/mileage in Northern Irish Nationalists/Republicans denouncing their British Citizenship, PSF would certainly have made their constituency aware of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly