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Don't forget clubs already get solidarity income - about E20k per club.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosophizer
I don't know if First Division clubs or clubs in Europe get it, but if we assume it's only the 8 non-European qualifiers, then that's a current solidarity fund of E150k already. More if FD clubs get a share, etc.
Or is the E381k over and above what they've previously gotten?
Great reward for seasons upon seasons of success for our underage set up. The U19s are unbeaten this season and are into the Cup final, which I think is due to be played in Cork.Quote:
Originally Posted by passinginterest
Under 19 champions in 2011-12, 12-13, 13-14 and 2015. Cup winners in 2012 and 2013.
The under 17s are flying as well, top of their table, knocked out of the cup last week in either the QF or the SF, not sure what round it was.
The next step is to see players stepping up into the first team and having a large impact. We've promoted some youth players in recent years, Rob Lehane, Danny Morrissey, John Kavanagh and Garry Buckley come to mind, but we're not seeing any real stars, Brian Lenihan was the exception but he didn't spend much time in our underage system, Alan Browne was a star underage and went straight to England so we didn't get to see him with the first team.
There are a handful waiting to make the jump now, Conor Ellis and Chedozie Ogbene the two that most people are excited about but Conor McCarthy and Cian Coleman have caugght my eye as well. Cobh Ramblers have another graduate on loan in Cian Donnelon too, I'm not sure about him but hes got potential as well.
Playing against European competition will be a good gauge of where our players are in terms of development.
Sorry to go against the grain and sound a bit Roy Keane-y, but no. No congrats to anyone last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
Dundalk got a decent draw for this round, but basically ruined the tie at Lansdowne with two dreadful defensive mistakes. Then, in the second leg, ran themselves into the ground by the 70th minute, were horribly wasteful in set-piece play, and failed to take advantage having an extra man for 27 minutes of football after a questionable sending off.
Dundalk's game plan last night involved lots of running and pressure. It was always going to be knackering on the players, and the inevitable exhaustion left them with nothing in the tank for the last 20 minutes. Was this the best strategy, knowing they'd leave themselves very open come the end? The goal, which was lovely, gave Dundalk the opportunity to calm things down somewhat, but they kept the tempo up.
Set-pieces were wasted time and time again. Can't afford to be doing that in the league, never mind in Europe. There was an element of last-ditch, dodgy defending (which they almost got away with), and in addition Legia should have a penalty.
Whenever Dundalk did get a rare chance then, the shots were mostly of a poor quality. Fats' one around the 80th minute stands out as being particularly tame (though he did have a decent game).
It probably says a lot about the league's progression that I feel a 3-1 aggregate loss to the Polish champions is a rubbish result. Maybe Dundalk had to keep a high tempo, maybe I'm being overambitious, and maybe I'm being overly harsh on Dundalk, but I do feel that Legia were beatable, and that Dundalk players and management simply didn't perform as well they could have over the two legs.
It was an exceptional chance to see an Irish team in the CL group stages, and Dundalk weren't up to the task. They're capable of more. No amount of back-slapping or self-pity will make up for the fact that was a huge opportunity missed. I'd dare say Stephen Kenny would agree with me on that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
I actually agree with this. Dundalk are a far better side than what they have shown over two legs against a side that haven't been in the CL group stage for 20 years despite their dominance of the Polish league. On paper, they should be lightyears ahead of Dundalk, but in reality, I really feel that Dundalk matched them all over the park but lacked killer instinct in the final third, coupled with two rather poor performances by Daryl Horgan, who is capable of so, so much more.
Last night, at 1-0, they had a glorious chance to kick on and put it to bed like they done with BATE, but for whatever reason, they didn't. I'd love to say we'll see this become a regular occurrence now, but I don't think we'll ever see a better chance for an Irish team to get into the CL group stage for a while again.
They've every chance of doing it again though, but they'll need to spend wisely next season to get a chance as good as what they had this season.
You are right, Kenny has already been quoted as saying it was a missed opportunity. The facts speak for themselves, Dundalk were not good enough to achieve qualification to the group stages of the Champions League. However, just stop for a second to consider that you are talking about the highest level of football, higher than the World Cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
Dundalk were hampered by a small squad and the inability to change tactics in the second half. They surprised Legia by using a narrow diamond formation in the first half, but Legia reorganised at half time and adapted to this threat. Dundalk needed to have the quality on the bench to try something different with fresher legs. It wasn't there.
This is the challenge they now face if they want to do better in Europe. How to put together a bigger squad, with more options, even though it will be overkill for the domestic league.
Thought Dundalk really missed Kilduff last night, strangely. Davey Mac ran himself into the ground, but got very little change out of the Legia defence. Particularly when Legia were down to ten, Killer for McMillan - or even Killer alongside McMillan - could have made a difference.
Obviously O'Donnell was a minor absentee as well, although his replacement weighed in with a nice goal.
Hadn't quite realised how thin Dundalk's squad really is actually.
They were poor from set pieces all right, i'll give you that, but not the rest of your points.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
Yes there were plenty of misplaced passed over the 2 legs, and plenty of mistakes in the away tie against BATE aswell, but that's what happens when you're playing against higher quality. The opposition players move quicker and the ball moves a LOT quicker than what you're used to, so the Dundalk players themselves had less time on the ball and had to think quicker and move sharper than they usually would, the fact that there was only a small difference between them and Legia (who apparently 10 of their starting 11 are full internationals) is testament to how well they played.
Did you not hear Kenny speaking after the match last night? He kept repeating how proud he was that they players performed to such a high level over the 2 legs, and through their whole european run. You're talking as if they played v poorly. Everything is relative. Given the standard they play at, their inexperience at this level, etc, they overperformed in almost every way.Quote:
Originally Posted by brendy_éire
Kenny has come out and said he wants to get through the Europa League group stages.
Tall target - especially if they get a nasty draw - but certainly no harm in aiming for it.
I said it a couple pages back, that he would be targeting getting out of the Group. No harm in having targets. Reaching them is another matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The draw will be a big factor but I actually think playing in the Aviva will hurt them. Our teams are used to playing in smaller grounds with tighter pitches. A full Tallaght would suit them much better. I'm guessing what Rovers did in 2011 regarding then Stand is a non-runner?
Moved the discussion of the 'windfall' for the league from this to the other thread.
But if they had made the CL, and finished 3rd they would have achieved the same anyway. A couple of draws and they might have achieved it!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Quote:
Originally Posted by ger121
This is it exactly. Towards the end of the year we are always rooting for lower ranked seeds to get through etc so I was thinking a win plus two draws would bump them up over to the lower end of the seeded teams.
FH Hafnarfjardar Isl 5.750
AS Trencín Svk 5.400
(were seeded)
The New Saints * Wal 5.200
(unseeded)
Currently Dundalk are at 4.640 but Bert hasnt updated last nights.
So the 0.5 would bump it up to 5.1 or how does it work?
Another draw would be nice but a win would make it a bit safer?
And obviously thats not including the modifications to the league co effecient...?
Last nights draw gave Dundalk 0.025 points, same as it gave everyone else. Clubs don't get points for wins/draws in qualifiers, they only get points for progression.
The combined attendance for the Legia tie was 59,483 made up of 29,066 (Warsaw) and 30,417 (Dublin).
Is that a LOI club record for a two-leg tie?
In 1967 the attendance at Dundalk’s away game against Vasas at the Budapest People’s Stadium was reported as 100,000. However this was a two-match event with the other Budapest team, Ferencvaros, warming up the crowd when defeating their Romanian opponents by 4-0.
Plenty bigger I'd say. Rovers-ManU 56-7 would have been higher, likewise Dundalk-Vasas, as you say, though the away attendance was 'only' about 68,000. Waterford played ManU and Celtic at Lansdowne in the early 70s, each of those would have had big aggregate crowds too you'd think. Celtic-Dundalk 79-80 maybe too. I'm sure there's the odd outlier I'm missing too.... another trip to Eastern Europe in the 60s or 70s perhaps when 70,000 of the local populace would be bored enough to turn up to see Drumcondra or Cork Hibs.Quote:
Originally Posted by orielabu
. double post
How many did Real or Barca draw when playing LoI sides?
Ararat Yerevan I think got huge crowds; they played Cork back in the 70s.
I would expect nothing less from Stephen Kenny.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
It is irrelevant to him that it is a tall target - it is what he wants to achieve, and he will be absolutely certain that it is possible.
He will also demand (and get) the same belief from players, staff and club officials
http://foot.ie/image/jpeg;base64,/9j...gIiICIiB//2Q==
I think I agree with your assessment of it. Nothing wrong with being ambitious and not settling for defeats, but I honestly thought Dundalk did the maximum they could. If they were capable of upping it a gear in the last 20 minutes they would certainly have done so. Don't underestimate the sheer physical effort it took them to compete with Legia, a team who by every yardstick should be streets ahead of Dundalk. If they hadn't worked so hard to close down and chase and harry then they would most probably have got a hammering. Dundalk, or any of our clubs, are not at the level where we capable of beating these teams, but they have shown that we can get closer. What has always struck me has been the difference in physicality between our teams and even teams like Legia, who are a few rungs below the european elite. They are just so much stronger, and quicker too. Dundalk weren't really found wanting technically, but physically they came up short.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosophizer
(Btw - just a nod to Pats, who got a similar result over there two years ago don't forget. I know the wheels came off at home, but we had a disastrous night in Tallaght losing most of our first choice defence on the night.)
Ex Cork City player Leon McSweeney is as clueless as a commentator as he was as a footballer
It also reflects badly on the editing team at Pundit Arena that they would be so out-of-touch not to spot the obvious error which is the premise for the articleQuote:
Opinion: Greed And Acceptance Of Mediocrity To Blame For Dundalk’s Champions League Exit
Unfortunately, Dundalk didn’t help themselves. The game was lost not on the field but in the Dundalk boardroom and their decision to play the first leg at the Aviva Stadium. Finances aside, there’s not a great argument supporting the view that playing at the Aviva Stadium would improve the team’s chances of achieving the seemingly impossible feat of Champions League qualification. In fact, quite the opposite.
The very decision to go to the Aviva screamed the club’s lack of belief in their own team’s chances of progression. They saw the game as a bonus and wanted to milk it. Typical.
http://www.punditarena.com/football/...rsaw-tie-lost/
I tell you one team I hope Dundalk get in the Europa, Young Boys of Berne. Absolute hammering in both legs, against Borussia Munchengladbach. But they were also pretty rubbish against Shakhtar Donetsk in the previous round, it was a case of who could be bothered to get through.....two bad teams
Also a handy trip for me:)
As for the Legia Dundalk game, Dundalk did great against a better resourced and conditioned team, a team who could always raise the level if needed. At that level its the tempo and fitness that affects the smaller teams. I dont think the Dundalk had anything left in the tank.
Its a big ask to expect them to suddenly become CL material. It really is stage by stage.
Unfortunately not. It makes no direct difference to Dundalk's coefficient whether they win one match or none. The 2 points they've received for getting to the EL group stages are not in addition to whatever they pick up through wins and draws once there. For example last year Qabala from Azerbaijan reached the group stages which is worth 2 points, they also picked up two draws there (also worth 2 points) but their total coefficient for the year was still just 2.8 (the other .8 coming from the league part).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
So Dundalk have no real chance of being seeded unless they can pick up three coefficient points in the group stage.
Plzen, Apoel, Young Boys. Those teams would barely fill Tallaght but that is a group Dundalk could do well in.
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Originally Posted by Ezeikial
He wasn't long regretting it.
http://foot.ie/attachment.php?attachmentid=2455&stc=1
This is a clip of Cork Hibs against Borussia Moenchengladbach in 1971 https://youtu.be/a45aiacu6QM
All of the goals came within the first 20 mins afaik. Don't let anyone tell you that the standard was better back then. We've come a long way!
We may as well enjoy this year in Europe. With UEFA expected to announce changes to CL format tomorrow, come 2018/19, it will be a whole lot harder to even get to this stage where you had Dundalk knocking on the door of the Groups.
Lot of outlets saying Top 4 Teams from the Top 4 Leagues will qualify automatically for CL Group Stages. That leaves 16 places for Teams from the other 48/49 Leagues to battle for. I'd also expect the Champions Path to be scrapped to make it easier for Teams from France, Portugal etc.. to qualify.
UEFA will sugarcoat the pill to make it less bitter to swallow by increasing prize money for qualifying rounds and what option to do Teams have anyway, for many it is their biggest source of revenue. I hope they change the name of the Champions League, as it's future format never mind it's current incarnation is a mockery to Champions around Europe.
It seems the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many!
I thought that was a spike milligan clip or laurel and hardy clip when i looked at it without the sound. Did the keeper thing he was the last CB or something, he never once seemed to dive. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo Escobar
Those teams carry fanatical away support though, particularly APOEL. I'd imagine Dundalk will play in the Aviva regardless.Quote:
Originally Posted by ger121
It's absolutely disgusting. You'd love to know what lobbying, if any was done by the FAI with this. Soccer is being murdered by the top teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by ger121
Remember that game well. That Moenchengladbach team were something special that day & Netzer gave a master class in midfield. They lost out (were robbed) in the 2nd round by Inter Milan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pablo Escobar
Complements of Wikipedia.
20 October 1971
Borussia Mönchengladbach 7–1 Internazionale Heynckes 7', 44'
Le Fevre 21', 34'
Netzer 42', 52'
Sieloff 83' (pen.)[1] Boninsegna 20'
This game was annulled as Inter player Roberto Boninsegna was hit by a Coca-Cola can in the 29th minute. The first leg game was replayed after the game that was originally scheduled to be second leg was played 0-0, thus the order of legs was switched.
3 November 1971
Internazionale 4–2 Borussia Mönchengladbach Bellugi 10'
Boninsegna 13'
Jair 57'
Ghio 90'Report Le Fevre 38'
Wittkamp 89'
Lads,
Ireland co-efficient now is now 5.825 and thus we are in 41st placed. I hear people on here saying that Dundalk get 2 points as they got to Europa league group stages so do we go up 7.825? I don't think so but just checking this out! Also if Dundalk was to win or drawed a game in Europa league group, whats points towards the co-efficient do they get, thanks
To your first question. No the 2 points don't go towards our overall co-efficient, just towards Dundalk's Club total.Quote:
Originally Posted by swinfordfc
As the minimum reward for qualifying for the EL Group, teams get 2 points. Therefore Dundalk will need at least a win and a draw (or 3 draws) to add anything to their club co-efficient i.e. 3 points instead of 2 points
On that last point, to have any chance of being seeded in the CL next year, presuming of course they win the League, they'll most likely needed 2 wins or a win and 2 draws. However, a win and a draw could be enough based on last years' seedings.
Dundalk get 2 points for a win, and 1 point for a draw from here on. The league gets half that, 20% of that is added to each clubs total going forward.
Each win from here on is worth 0.10 to each club, and each draw is worth 0.05. In the qualifying rounds wins were worth 0.05 and draws 0.025
Are you sure on that? I've never seen that written down anywhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by ger121
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_c...ub_coefficient
This link (which could obviously be wrong) says teams get 2 points for participation, and then 2 points for a win, and 1 for a draw.
From wiki:Quote:
Originally Posted by swinfordfc
So, this seasons results in Europe so far:Quote:
This coefficient is determined by the results of the clubs of the associations in the UEFA Champions League and the UEFA Europa League games over the past five seasons. Two points are awarded for each win by a club, and one for a draw (points are halved in the qualifying and playoff rounds). Results determined by extra time do count in determining the allocation of points, but results determined by penalty-shootouts do not affect the allocation of points, other than for bonus points given for qualification into the latter rounds of the Champions League or the Europa League. The number of points awarded each season is divided by the number of teams that participated for that association in that season. This number is then rounded down to three decimal places (e.g. 2⅔ would be rounded to 2.666).
Dundalk: won 1, drew 3, lost 2 (4.5 total, incl extra 2 points for EL group stage)
Cork: won 2, drew 2, lost 2 (3.0 total)
St Pats: won 1, drew 1, lost 2 (1.5 total)
Shamrock Rovers: drew 1, lost 1. (0.5 total)
Total: won 4, drew 7, lost 7 (11.5 total, incl EL points)
Divide by four teams in Europe and that gives 2.875 points this season so far, as far as I can make out. Kassiesa has it as 1.875 so far though. So I'm not sure where I'm going wrong. If there's an error on his site, that takes Irelands total up from 5.825 to 6.825.
From this, that takes Ireland up to 37th in the rankings by my calculation. There's a cluster of nations above Ireland in the rankings with no clubs left in European competition that are within catching distance. Although, it would take two wins by Dundalk to lift Ireland to 36th above Finland.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swinfordfc
Neither had I but someone else posted about it a page or so ago so I looked into what he had said based on Bert's site and it's looks to be accurate. Look at the following link of last years' team co-efficient earned for 2015/16Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
http://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/...tcoef2016.html
OP gave an example of Gabala making EL Group Stage, getting two draws but still only earning 2.8 something - 2 points minimum for EL qualification + Country co-efficient percentage. I also looked at Celtic who got 3 points in total so guess was a win and a draw for them in the Group, hence extra point on top of the 2 points already received qualified.
Hope I'm wrong,as much harder for Dundalk to get the required points to b seeded next year should they qualify as Champions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
Quote:
Originally Posted by ger121
Had a look at that wiki link and it states:
Bonus points for entering the Europa League group stage are not additional to win/draw points; they provide a minimum points allowance for participating clubs, whereas bonus points for entering the Champions League group stage (and those for qualifying to the knockout stage) are additional to win/draw points
Yeah, ger121 is spot on. The 2 points for the EL are only a minimum (unlike the CL). Great spot
Unfortunately money talks. German and Spanish clubs have been pushing for this since the increase in money across the water. The top 4 leagues will have 16 automatic entrants, up from 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by ger121
UEFA were suggesting that they had a 40 team format for FIFA to consider using in World Cups. Possibly UEFA should use that 40 team format for both the Champions League and Europa League.