Lisbon Treaty

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

They want to operate within agreed frameworks and then they want to ignore the same frameworks when things dont go their way.

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I think its fundamentally clear for very obvious, rational and realistic reasons that they want to change the frameworks.

I'll ask the question again. Where do we go from here if we keep exercising our veto? The No side need to get real and accept that by not going with Lisbon the outcome is a two speed Europe, of which we are in the slow class, probably with the Brits and the Scandinavians.

If thats what we want as a nation, then so be it, but neither side have bothered to properly inform the people of the consequences.

The idea that we can somehow stall the process ad infinitum is ridiculous as is attempting to suggest that every country ratifying the Treaty is out of step with the view of the people.

We voted No for spurious reasons dreamt up by a plastic paddy from Watford with a hidden agenda, with the consequences of our vote being completely misrepresented to the people.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I'll ask the question again. Where do we go from here if we keep exercising our veto? The No side need to get real and accept that by not going with Lisbon the outcome is a two speed Europe, of which we are in the slow class, probably with the Brits and the Scandinavians.

If thats what we want as a nation, then so be it, but neither side have bothered to properly inform the people of the consequences.

The idea that we can somehow stall the process ad infinitum is ridiculous as is attempting to suggest that every country ratifying the Treaty is out of step with the view of the people.

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Yes side propaganda.

There is nothing legally that the EU can do without us on board re: Lisbon. They can threaten, they can harass, they may feel that they can go ahead without us, but they can't, and that's the legal position. On EU treaties, it's unanimity or FA. Instead life in the EU goes on, as it does now.

The other countries can ratify what they like, but without the consent of Ireland, it's meaningless.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The other countries can ratify what they like, but without the consent of Ireland, it's meaningless.

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Do we really know that is fact & not just opinion. Voting issues cannot change without us but I suspect many other matters could.

In hindsight the Yes side did not challenge "it can be renegotiated" line of SF & Libertas. Whatever side you are on renegotiation means new Treaty as the other 26 countries would need to be part of & vote on again too.

In other news Libertas have announced they will run a campaign in the European Elections next year. I wait to see them announce the source of their Lisbon Treaty next spring.

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Originally Posted by pete

Do we really know that is fact & not just opinion. Voting issues cannot change without us but I suspect many other matters could.

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Listening to RTE's post-Lisbon coverage last night, which enquired about the legal position. The answer was that basically, nothing could be done without us. Anything that could be done to alter the treaty to facilitiate Ireland, would have to be re-ratified in every member state. No country that has already ratified this one, is going to go through the procedure again.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Listening to RTE's post-Lisbon coverage last night, which enquired about the legal position. The answer was that basically, nothing could be done without us. Anything that could be done to alter the treaty to facilitiate Ireland, would have to be re-ratified in every member state. No country that has already ratified this one, is going to go through the procedure again.

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So what happens then? Where do we go? Are you saying that everyone says "oh well, we tried" and stays with the current approach ad infinitum just because we don't like it? Do you not accept a two speed Europe is almost inevitable?

I can guarantee you we won't be operating under the Nice arrangements in 3 years time, whatever you think.

We go on as we are now. The Constitution has been rejected by 3 countries, representing over 10% of the population. They can't do anything without Ireland, and so, talk of a "two-speed" Europe is just another aimless threat really. With political support from the UK, Scandinavia, and Eastern Europe for us representing roughly half of the bloc, there's no chance of that happening either.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I think its fundamentally clear for very obvious, rational and realistic reasons that they want to change the frameworks.

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Of course they want to change the framework. Unfortunately for them they wanted to make that change under the present framework and its been rejected. So either they respect the rules they have drawn up themselves or they ignore them. In which case why do we need to ratify treaties at all if they are just going to break them? Its your opinion that it is for “obvious rational and realistic”. Unfortunately for you the majority of voters in this country who expressed an interest disagree with you.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I'll ask the question again. Where do we go from here if we keep exercising our veto? The No side need to get real and accept that by not going with Lisbon the outcome is a two speed Europe, of which we are in the slow class, probably with the Brits and the Scandinavians.

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The EU worked fine before Lisbon and works fine now. You would have to wonder why certain politicians are so keen to push this through at all costs.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

If thats what we want as a nation, then so be it, but neither side have bothered to properly inform the people of the consequences.

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I don’t think either side know the consequences. Hence the scaremongering by the Yes side and the No side playing up ignorance and confusion amongst the electorate.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

The idea that we can somehow stall the process ad infinitum is ridiculous as is attempting to suggest that every country ratifying the Treaty is out of step with the view of the people.

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Its not stalled its rejected. Over. Finito. Any suggestion otherwise makes the process –by which I mean the reform of the EU structures - meaningless anyway. If politicians and governments are going to just do what they want anyway regardless of its own rules then what is the point in trying to dress it up and give it any legitamacy at all.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

We voted No for spurious reasons dreamt up by a plastic paddy from Watford with a hidden agenda, with the consequences of our vote being completely misrepresented to the people.

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Plastic Paddy from Watford???:confused: Please say what his hidden agenda was?
I think we did vote no on very spurious reasons but equally if we had have voted yes it would have been for very spurious reasons as well.

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Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

The EU worked fine before Lisbon and works fine now. You would have to wonder why certain politicians are so keen to push this through at all costs.

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Sure we need more enlargement, don't we?? :confused::rolleyes: The fact that Nice handles enlargement as well as Lisbon does, seems to escape those in Brussels. This is a power grab by France and Germany, plain and simple. They've always wanted to rule Europe, and they thought that railroading the conjob through without referendums, they could. Until we stepped in.

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Originally Posted by mypost

We go on as we are now. The Constitution has been rejected by 3 countries, representing over 10% of the population. .

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Factually incorrect. The Lisbon treaty has been rejected by one country. Us. The Dutch and French position on the Constitution is about as relevant as the view that we somehow hold the power in the EU.

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Originally Posted by mypost

They can't do anything without Ireland, and so, talk of a "two-speed" Europe is just another aimless threat really. With political support from the UK, Scandinavia, and Eastern Europe for us representing roughly half of the bloc, there's no chance of that happening either.

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What a ridiculously naive post.

By your argument all EU nations either would be in the Euro or there would be no monetary union? Did you miss what happened with that? Where there's a will there's a way.

Once Europe starts turning the screw we'll come crawling back to the table.

ORA, it's a bit rich to call mypost's comments "ridiculously naive" at the same time as your own "factually incorrect" statement. Technical correctness is not the same as reality. The reality is that the Lisbon Treaty was a very slightly amended consitution. You know, he knows it and everyone else that isn't naive knows it.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Once Europe starts turning the screw we'll come crawling back to the table.

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They can turn the whole table if they like, it's not going to change my stance. Freedom with democracy, is more important than fedaralism with dictatorship.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

ORA, it's a bit rich to call mypost's comments "ridiculously naive" at the same time as your own "factually incorrect" statement. Technical correctness is not the same as reality. The reality is that the Lisbon Treaty was a very slightly amended consitution. You know, he knows it and everyone else that isn't naive knows it.

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Fair enough, but the no side seem to use the finer detail of European law to prop up their argument so I was throwing a bit of the detail back.

The European Constitution is legally different but practically identical to Lisbon in the same way Ireland is legally secure in its current blocking position but practically getting pushed to the outside.

I take your point, but tbh I'm sick of the dishonesty from both sides in this debate. Each side uses the dishonesty and deception of the other to justify their own dishonesty and deception, and that kind of debate is just a circular waste of time and effort. We're not politicians here, for the most part, it would be nice to see a little straight talking, acceptance of different points of view, etc. You know, adult talk.

adam

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

We're not politicians here, for the most part, it would be nice to see a little straight talking, acceptance of different points of view, etc. You know, adult talk.

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Adult talk on the internet seems to amount to calling someone a sophist instead of a poopoohead.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Fair enough, but the no side seem to use the finer detail of European law to prop up their argument so I was throwing a bit of the detail back.

The European Constitution is legally different but practically identical to Lisbon in the same way Ireland is legally secure in its current blocking position but practically getting pushed to the outside.

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We're not the only country to have voted against Brussels diktats, and nothing happened to the ones before us. They were all threatened with two-speed Europe, loss of influence, thrown out of the EU, etc, and nothing happened. That's because nothing can happen. Practically and legally, the EU has to and does run as a family of 27 independent states.

Next up in the charade is Napoleon's day trip on Monday. Despite his arguments to save Europe, he has no right to interfere in the Irish political process, and it's not his decision to fest another referendum on us. There will be resistance to it from the people of Ireland whatever happens. When the outcome of our referendum is accepted and the EU Constitution in whatever guise is aborted, then the debate shall end. Until then...

Just returned from the Dublin protest against the Sarkosy visit. Good turnout, considering the time of day it was on, with speakers from France, Germany, and Austria making their voices heard, along with No side politicians and campaigners here. :)

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Originally Posted by mypost

Just returned from the Dublin protest against the Sarkosy visit. Good turnout, considering the time of day it was on, with speakers from France, Germany, and Austria making their voices heard, along with No side politicians and campaigners here. :)

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I can't see why the No side are protesting against him, he's their biggest asset! :D

Forgot about the protests yesterday. Would have good entertainment to look out for some of the wacko section.

Farmers moaning about the end of days. Over 50% of all farm & agrifood jobs to be lost. They may have some points but they always overdo it on the doom & gloom stuff. Fishermen also moaning about quotas. Sure if no quotas then all the fish would be gone. :rolleyes:

How any of this has anything to do with Lisbon escapes me...

I have noticed in the media that the Lisbon No vote has now turned into a debate whether the EU has been good for us or should we stay in it. Of all the stupid debates...

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Originally Posted by pete

Forgot about the protests yesterday. Would have good entertainment to look out for some of the wacko section.

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Pro: We could rest assured that they were segregated away from the rest of us in one feld swoop. :cool:

Con: Turning up would arise suspicion of guilt by association with them. :eek:

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Originally Posted by dfx-

Pro: We could rest assured that they were segregated away from the rest of us in one feld swoop. :cool:

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Apparently there was free fish too & we all know how expensive wild fish is.