Jesus wept.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
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Jesus wept.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Why Jaysus??
As in an explanation would be good.
It's quite a paradox that the people who most want a United Ireland are the people who dislike, even loathe, 'Northern Ireland' the most. Very evident in this debate here. The impression which comes across forcefully is that the 'two tribes/North & South' partition looks copper fastened for ever.
Naw, don't agree with that at all.
Give it 200 years...
Gerry, Marty and the boys were a tad out with the 2016 prediction then.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
So, "it's only a matter of time", but it might be a hell of a long time.;)
A Poll conducted by the IFA amomgst blockbookers would be interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Why would they limit their research to the blockbookers? The IFA is the governing body of football for the whole of Northern Ireland, not just those current fans who go can afford to go to games.
Because they're easily identified and contacted, and provide a sample large enough to be representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
The opinions of current fans are probably of more use to the IFA than a random selection of non-fans, Bellylaugh readers or obsessive internet users in England.Quote:
not just those current fans
Given that NI play only four or five home games per year, a block booking is affordable to most. Even if you don't think it offers particularly good value.Quote:
who go can afford to go to games
It depends on what your objective is.
If you want to confirm the status quo, then by all means limit the poll to block bookers.
If you want to gauge whether a move away from GSTQ would make for a more broadly representative team, then you'll have to expand the pool.
I suspect the IFA has little interest in diluting the team's core British identity and as such would be loath to undertake research that might not support that.
Which is completely fine, by the way, but you'd then have to accept that there will continue to be a substantial part of the country's football community that has little to no interest in the Northern Ireland team.
More easily identified and contacted than, say, another equally large sample of people from Northern Ireland?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Why is that? Shouldn't they seek to consult a much broader NI crowd than current NI fans, given that they purport to represent the region?Quote:
The opinions of current fans are probably of more use to the IFA than a random selection of non-fans, Bellylaugh readers or obsessive internet users in England.
To canvass the opinion of NI fans in a way that's both representative of them, and effective to carry out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Er, obviously no- since every time this issue raises on this and any other forum, I always say I'd prefer a distinct NI anthem to replace GSTQQuote:
If you want to confirm the status quo, then by all means limit the poll to block bookers
A poll of block bookers isn't 'limited', as I explained- they are people demonstrating their support for the NI team in a straightforward and affordable way.
I don't, actually. More important to gauge what NI fans actually think on the issue, and as a result to make the anthem (or whatever) more representative of them.Quote:
If you want to gauge whether a move away from GSTQ would make for a more broadly representative team, then you'll have to expand the pool
No ****, Sherlock. I wouldn't be too keen on the idea myself, assuming that you mean making the team less representative of its fans?Quote:
I suspect the IFA has little interest in diluting the team's core British identity
Such research- a weighted poll of 1,000 NI adults?- would presumably identify significant groups of people who are uninterested in football, and/or want a united Ireland yesterday. Why would the IFA realistically care what they think? However any research question is worded it's unlikely to identify a significant group of nw fans who'd be attracted by a knees up to Danny Boy, Ireland's Call, or some dirge written by Snow Patrol.Quote:
and as such would be loath to undertake research that might not support that
And in any case, so long as the IFA don't actually break any laws or breach the peace with their anthems, competition names or long-standing bans on large sectors of the community, everyone else will probably lose interest in this issue and find some other exaggerated controversy to get outraged about.
I've always accepted that a significant number of them support the RoI, so what's new? As above, I imagine an insignifcant number of those would be attracted to Windsor by a new anthem. Do you seriously think otherwise?Quote:
you'd then have to accept that there will continue to be a substantial part of the country's football community that has little to no interest in the Northern Ireland team
Er, yes- since a self-selected group such as NI fans are easier to contact- you just put a flyer in their renewal form, merchandise catalog or whatever. You don't need to conduct a complex Gallup poll weighted for the right number of Sinn Fein and DUP voters, or the like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
And- more importantly- they don't need to be filtered to exclude the uninterested or irredeemably biased. You already know they support NI, that's the whole point of asking them what they think.
Don't play dumb. What NI fans think is obviously of value to the IFA; what most non-fans think isn't, provided the IFA stay within the rule of law and don't explicitly exclude others.Quote:
Why is that? Shouldn't they seek to consult a much broader NI crowd than current NI fans, given that they purport to represent the region?
As I suggested in a previous reply to you, expecting sports administrators to do much more than represent their fans and stay within those broad legal limits is a bit pointless. Particularly in a polarised situation like NI where we know what 90% of the voters think on most aspects of the overriding single issue locally.
This isn't going to be an election issue or force a constitutional amendment. The most you'll get is a phone in to Wendy or Nolan, if they don't float your boat hand in a petition or something.
That's what I was trying to clarify. You're only interested in those who currently support the team, however the IFA's current policy - in public at least - is to expand the support base by attracting more people from nationalist backgrounds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Well I mean putting a smaller emphasis on the overt symbols of British nationalism (i.e. the anthem) to create a more agreeable environment for those who don't identify with those symbols, like the way the IRFU doesn't use Amhran na bhFiann outside of the Republic.Quote:
No ****, Sherlock. I wouldn't be too keen on the idea myself, assuming that you mean making the team less representative of its fans?
Well you filter out people who aren't interested in football by only surveying people who are. The people who want a United Ireland yesterday will presumably answer that GSTQ and related symbols are irrelevant to them, which would support your position.Quote:
Such research- a weighted poll of 1,000 NI adults?- would presumably identify significant groups of people who are uninterested in football, and/or want a united Ireland yesterday. Why would the IFA realistically care what they think? However any research question is worded it's unlikely to identify a significant group of nw fans who'd be attracted by a knees up to Danny Boy, Ireland's Call, or some dirge written by Snow Patrol.
I have no idea, but I imagine the current crop of football fans are stuck in their ways. Presumably you'd like the Northern Ireland team to still exist in the future though, and I'd wager future generations of kids from nationalist backgrounds would be more favourably disposed to a team that's more broadly representative of the entire population. That said, the status quo seems to be alright with everybody except those who cry about nationalists opting for the Republic.Quote:
And in any case, so long as the IFA don't actually break any laws or breach the peace with their anthems, competition names or long-standing bans on large sectors of the community, everyone else will probably lose interest in this issue and find some other exaggerated controversy to get outraged about.
I've always accepted that a significant number of them support the RoI, so what's new? As above, I imagine an insignifcant number of those would be attracted to Windsor by a new anthem. Do you seriously think otherwise?
Surely according to the claims of the farcical 'Football For All, surely the IFA and related anthem/flag should reflect the wishes of the whole populace??
Not a few thousand people who mainly seem to have large girths...
Maybe they were;doesn't mean it won't happen though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
;)
Not quite. While they're the priority for the reasons I described, I'm also interested in potential new fans, even large groups which represent whole sectors of society.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
As I've said many times on here, realistically such new fans are more likely to come from the unionist (or non-nationalist, if you prefer) community. Nationalist football fans in NI tend to support the Republic as we know. That's not to say a more welcoming atmosphere for them wouldn't be welcome, they just aren't the priority as I see it; they already support another team.
Indeed. As far as I know- not that far, as I live in England am not an IFA official in any capacity- it's the same in private. I simply think it's the wrong priority, as I say above.Quote:
however the IFA's current policy - in public at least - is to expand the support base by attracting more people from nationalist backgrounds
Well, to repeat again: I certainly don't identify with- or like- GSTQ, yet I've been watching NI games since the 70s and don't find the anthem a major factor in setting the environment. Actually I'm normally tranferring from pub to seat via toilets while it's playing. So funnily enough, I don't think changing the anthem, if it happens, will make that much difference to the atmosphere, nor indeed the people who turn up.Quote:
Well I mean putting a smaller emphasis on the overt symbols of British nationalism (i.e. the anthem) to create a more agreeable environment for those who don't identify with those symbols
I'm not a RU fan so merely quoting others second hand, but assuming that comment is serious it's misplaced. Almost all the NI unionist RU fans I know think the lack of AnbF outside the Republic is irrelevant; if the IRFU wanted to make a real symbolic gesture they'd stop playing it at Lansdowne.Quote:
like the way the IRFU doesn't use Amhran na bhFiann outside of the Republic
That's my point. Other people (ie those who aren't ever likely, realistically, to show at an NI game) are largely irrelevant to the IFA. Remember, they aren't a government agency or political party- they don't have to be accountable to the wider electorate as long as they operate within the law, as I said.Quote:
Well you filter out people who aren't interested in football by only surveying people who are
Maybe, but I daresay they also relfect the society they live in. Which, in NI means 90% of voters voting around a single issue, as I mentioned.Quote:
I imagine the current crop of football fans are stuck in their ways
That's nice.I'll match your wager: in 25 years, I expect the NI side will be running out to something other than GSTQ, because before then I imagine support for something more distinct will have grown. Always assuming FIFA still use national anthems generally of course. And then your notional generation of nationalist kids* will likely be doing one of two things- either happily supporting NI, or conversely gurning about their alientation because there still isn't a united Ireland in 2036. Either way, my suggested strategy will be vindicated ;)Quote:
Presumably you'd like the Northern Ireland team to still exist in the future though, and I'd wager future generations of kids from nationalist backgrounds would be more favourably disposed to a team that's more broadly representative of the entire population
* I saw a press report today about the proposed closure of one of NI's two teacher training colleges. Nationalist and unionist hacks rounded on the Alliance guy for having the temerity to even suggest that they merge. If that ever happens, I wonder how that will affect segregated education and its knock on effect on football supporting?
That group doesn't include me. If they want to emigrate, fine: it would be better if they hadn't amassed numerous cps for NI adult sides first.Quote:
That said, the status quo seems to be alright with everybody except those who cry about nationalists opting for the Republic
Surely it should be about appealing to future generations, rather than a few paranoid fools stuck in the past?
And you'll all be glad to know that our rotund 'friend' 'enjoyed' his own 'Jeremy Clarkson moment' earlier when he referred to members of this board in rather disparaging terms...
:eek:
Surely it's obvious they would object to its existence (Rather like unionists are to a UI).Quote:
Originally Posted by Straightstory
And quite understandable, given they were the indigenous population who were most disadvantaged.
It's hardly rocket science...
:rolleyes:
Where have the IFA stated this publicly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Why do the IRFU use it in the Republic?Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
Anyway, perhaps GSTQ followed by a uniquely Northern Irish Anthem is the way to go, based on the practice of the IRFU.
That's rather presumptive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
I think it would be very close between the retainers and changers.
Not according to Rather Rotund...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
"the lack of AnbF outside the Republic is irrelevant"
So it would make no difference to those NI unionist RU fans that you know, if the IRFU used AnbF along with Ireland's Call, for the away game anthems?
That the issue is more with Ireland's Call not being a specific sport anthem for NI? or just use Ireland's Call exclusively home and away?
I think the whole GSTQ debate is a non issue. It doesn't make a button of difference to me what song they play, they can change it to "Shiny Happy People" for all I care, really think it will have a neglible effect on changing the minds of ROI fans.
Anthems are only symbolic, they are only superficial. Identity runs much deeper and I think supporting NI is the anathema of what Irish identity is.
NI fans are excercising their Britishness by playing GSTQ, and fair play to them, Irish men from the 32 counties are excercising their Irishness by playing for Ireland. That's the beauty of freedom of expression.
That'll depend on how you define "Irish identity".Quote:
Originally Posted by French Toasht
I'm proud of my "Irish identity", and am happy to express it through support for the Irish Football Association's representative team.
The emerald green shirts, the celtic cross, and the shamrocks have a nice Irish feel to them too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Genuinely moronic.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
As opposed to being actually pompous...
Not to mention hypocritical.
:rolleyes:
PS.How can being factually correct, be 'moronic' ??
Methinks you need to check the facts. In anything it's understating those.
I see. You don't care if the NI team becomes more broadly representative of the people of NI. Is a national team supposed to be representative of its fans only, or the football fans of the nation/region/statelet it is named after? In a place like NI, you'd think the IFA would attempt to bridge division, rather than reaffirm it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
The IFA cares about those who wanted a United Ireland yesterday when they decide to leave NI for a team more representative of them. As the governing body for football in Northern Ireland, they have a duty to all football fans/players in the area, not just those who are content with the status quo. It's a very insular attitude to suggest that the IFA should effectively only care what unionists think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
That's no reason to dismiss the idea of attempting to be much more inclusive and as alluded to, more broadly representative.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Why would opinion polls need to be filtered? Sounds odd to me. How about conducting a poll of, say representatives from the various football teams under the auspices of the IFA? Would their opinions be as valid to the IFA as that of NI fans? If not, why not? What about the players who actually play for NI, is the team supposed to be representative of them too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I don't say that the IFA shouldn't listen to current fans - of course they should - I just think they should attempt to reach out to the entirety of NI, including the "irredeemably biased", if they're ever to be taken even a wee bit seriously by that section of society. Surely that's what the IFA want? They don't want to play second fiddle to the FAI.
As I said I don't suggest prohibiting the IFA fans. What most football fans think is very much of value to the IFA. These are the people the IFA relies on, for players, grassroots support, etc.. To suggest that only current NI fans should have a say is remarkably blinkered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I don't think it's particularly unreasonable to expect those who govern the game in NI to attempt to be inclusive of as many football fans in NI as they can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Fair play Predator, but is it really worth generating the highly likely tedious response??
I'd say that GR is just being realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
That's a little facetious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Why would the IFA consult those who do not form part of its support base?
Whilst I would disagree that the GSTQ debate is a complete non-issue, I entirely agree with your second point.Quote:
Originally Posted by French Toasht
One of the more ridiculous arguments offered against the proposition for change on OWC was that "it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to those who already support the Republic (or 'beggars' - to use OWC terminology), so what's the point?".....or words to that effect.
Answer - It's to try and secure more support from future generations of football fans in NI.
So, so stupid! (but then you do have to remember that many of them truly believed that the FIFA eligibility rules worked in their favour)
But what about 'Football For all' ?? Isn't it supposed to appeal to the whole populace?
Any anthem change should reflect the whole of the Six Counties, especially the indigenous population...
Football For All is basically a community relations project, whose mission statement is as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
"...the Football For All Project, which is managed by the Irish FA Community Relations Department, aims to create a fun, safe and inclusive culture throughout all levels of Football.
Football For All is committed to tackling both sectarianism and racism. The guiding principles of Football For All are Education, Support and Communication.
The Football For All team is currently working with a wealth of partners in the community, using the universal power of Football, to promote Good Relations."
It's overall aim then is to provide the part emboldened above, by undertaking the work outlined in points 2 and 3.
If that leads to more people supporting the NI side, then that's an added bonus.
By indigenous you mean.....nationalists? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
It's hard to find anything that reflects the whole of the Six Counties. Aside from a new composition, the only song that could possibly do it is Danny Boy, but even then imagine the arguments over whether it's the Derry Air (arse), or Londonderry Air? Only in NI, I suppose.
Apartheid-enabler? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
In seriousness though, I think it's fair enough that the IFA cater for their own fans/players only. How would a player poll sound? They're the ones who have to stand to attention after all. My personal Irish identity (and that of the wider nationalist community) and the concept of supporting NI as my/our representative national football team are inherently incompatible. Just like I've said with regard to changing their anthem to something purporting to be broadly representative of both the unionist and nationalist communities making no difference to me, they could change the anthem to 'Rule Britannia' and I wouldn't see any reason to be offended by it, no matter how puzzling and misguided it might seem. As French Toasht highlights, as important as symbolism is to people, it's still only superficial in the sense that identity cuts much deeper. There are possibly some from a nationalist background who might be turned off by the current overtly British symbolism surrounding the IFA team and would play for NI otherwise, but, generally, I just don't think it's any of our concern, to be honest. It's not bitterness or anything as I'm not one to wish NI any ill will. Well, some of the time anyway. :p
Me thinks he doesn't know that Gather Round and yourself know each other.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Or, perhaps he does know and just thinks you're moronic....which is equally possible.
I'm not sure if you're serious Fly, but you've answered your own question. Their prospective support base should encompass the entire football loving population, but it doesn't, for various reasons and it seems obvious to me that it is in the IFA's interests to be as inclusive as possible. I could be wrong of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
Listening to Armstrong talk on the radio, he's stated that it is one of the things that has come up among players, even though he said he personally had/has no problem with God Save the Queen. Why would he bother running with the idea at all? Unless he's some kind of lose cannon, which seems possible.
Aye. But latter is a little harsh, unless of course he includes the 'Great Round One'...Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
;)
As trust me, is nowhere as 'liberal' as he likes to appear. Though the sad thing is probably still a relative 'moderate'!
:eek:
I am serious. The IFA is not a ministry of the NI Assembly; it doesn't have a public remit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
They do no not need to consult you or I because the answer in the first instance is fairly obvious, and will not lead to you or I supporting them.
I suspect that they already know that anyway because.....well.....the dogs in the street know it. Just like I also suspect that they know a change of anthem could only increase their support base in the long term, if only marginally so. But, I also suspect that many of them are afraid to make that leap and/or don't believe that the short to medium term hassle, and possible loss of support, is worth it.
If, on the other hand, the IFA and the majority of Northern Ireland supporters do not realize that a change of anthem could secure them more support from future generations of football fans in NI then they are well and truly thick. Though I suspect that's not entirely the case, don't you?
Why the IFA felt the need to pay Gerry Armstrong to go on some sort of fact finding mission is beyond me. I would've gladly offered my services for free, and all it would've taken was a 2 minute phone call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
You think that the IFA may be flying a kite with Gerry?Quote:
Originally Posted by Predator
Are the IFA capable of such thinking? Anything's possible.
Though keep in mind that this is the organisation that kept pressing FIFA to enforce their rules on player eligibility, and then, dissatisfied with the response and in a masochistic state of mind, took their case to the Court of Arbitration for Sport using the same strategy as before.
Hmmm.....maybe the whole player eligibility debacle was a gigantic ruse aimed at achieving a change of anthem!!!
http://209.85.122.87/5902/57/0/e14535/e14535.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by The Fly
You'd have 'worked' for The IFA, Fly??
:rolleyes:
Though your point about the ruse could even have a grain of truth...
;)
I agree with other posters here that this talk about a change of anthem is a superficial attempt to highlight the issues of players looking South. The issues between both communities are such that such a step would mean basically nothing. NB's comment of a few pages ago that essentially he would be supporting the other three teams in Ireland's group shows the feeling among Unionist supporters. They dislike everything we stand for and as another poster mentioned he is quite moderate in his views. Therefore, for many Nationalists such views alienate them and no amount of bu##s##t PR activity will change centuries long mistrust.
The peace walls which separate communities would have to come down before I would believe real progress had been made in NI. Maybe 'We are Family' by Sister Sledge might be appropriate, but it will take centuries for real reconciliation to occur. Until then, many young NI players will continue to look South for acknowledgement and acceptance.