Lisbon Treaty

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14/07/2008, 5:27 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

I didn't vote for McAleese (didn't we have an uncontested election last time the Presidency came up?) so it doesn't make a shred of difference to me who the figurehead/scapegoat of the EU is

I didn't vote for her either, but she was democratically elected when there was an election, so she rightfully, represents our country on the world stage. Not some Eurocrat.
14/07/2008, 5:44 PM
jebus

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

I didn't vote for her either, but she was democratically elected when there was an election, so she rightfully, represents our country on the world stage. Not some Eurocrat.

No problem with her representing Ireland on a world stage, would rather an actual politician to be president of Europe though, someone who has been elected in their own country for sure, but putting someone who's in a sham of a position like the President of Ireland in that position, well you may as well give it to the Queen
14/07/2008, 5:53 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

No problem with her representing Ireland on a world stage, would rather an actual politician to be president of Europe though, someone who has been elected in their own country for sure, but putting someone who's in a sham of a position like the President of Ireland in that position, well you may as well give it to the Queen

Again, looking for a perfect world.

Said politician, would be a representative of the big 5, and thus hold the Presidency. Said politician would neither reflect the political or practical position of Ireland, nor give the country a second thought in his dealings/decisions, nor can be replaced by our electorate. Bad for democracy, bad for this country, and bad for the EU.

On that basis, I'd rather have the "sham" position of the President of Ireland representing us.
14/07/2008, 5:56 PM
pete

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

I didn't vote for her either, but she was democratically elected when there was an election, so she rightfully, represents our country on the world stage. Not some Eurocrat.

There was no election for McAleese second term.

At least with a new EU Presidency it would be elected by the leaders of the nations. As it stands Sarkozy only elected by the French so we have no say at all. Getting the Presidency for 6 out of every 162 months is worthless.
14/07/2008, 5:59 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete

At least with a new EU Presidency it would be elected by the leaders of the nations. As it stands Sarkozy only elected by the French so we have no say at all. Getting the Presidency for 6 out of every 162 months is worthless.

Worthless to who??

As it stands, each country is entitled to host the Presidency for an equal length of time. That is imo, the correct way of conducting business in the EU. With the new EU Presidency proposals, there would be no public elections. Much like the ratification process. That signifies the ignorance and arrogance that the public are held in by Brussels. The President must be accountable to the people he represents.
14/07/2008, 6:35 PM
jebus

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

Worthless to who??

Worthless to me and the Irish public. If we had scrapped the Presidency in this country when no would stood against McAleese would this country be any worse off for it? Would anyone other than some people that still think we're fighting for Dev's country even care?
14/07/2008, 8:09 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

If we had scrapped the Presidency in this country when no would stood against McAleese would this country be any worse off for it?

:confused:

Quote:

Worthless to me and the Irish public.

The Presidency issue is one of the driving forces of my opposition to Lisbon, I see it as a surrender of soverignty if passed. I am happy with the current arrangements on the issue.
14/07/2008, 8:12 PM
GavinZac

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

:confused:

The Presidency issue is one of the driving forces of my opposition to Lisbon, I see it as a surrender of soverignty if passed. I am happy with the current arrangements on the issue.

The 'presidency' makes them the president of the European Union. It does not make them your head of state.

Regardless, the President is as much our 'head of state' as Lizzie is in Australia.
14/07/2008, 8:18 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by GavinZac

The 'presidency' makes them the president of the European Union. It does not make them your head of state.

Should Lisbon be ratified everywhere, the European Union becomes a country in 2014, with it's own constitution, it's own flag, it's own anthem, it's own President, it's own Foreign Minister. It would be made of 27 states, that are all subservient to Brussels. Our head of state would have no legitamacy, neither would our foreign minister. We would officially be represented by the EU President, not the President of Ireland. The Irish Constitution would be obsolete, the Dail would be toothless and worthless, as would the lower/upper parliaments in all other states. That is a surrender of national sovereignty, which I'm not prepared to concede.
14/07/2008, 8:22 PM
jebus

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

:confused:

If we got rid of the office of the President of Ireland tomorrow what difference would it make to our day to day life?
14/07/2008, 8:24 PM
GavinZac

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

Should Lisbon be ratified everywhere, the European Union becomes a country in 2014

:confused:

Quote:

with it's own constitution,

um, no?

Quote:

it's own flag

it has one

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it's own anthem

it has one

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it's own President

It has one

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it's own Foreign Minister.

it has one

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It would be made of 27 states, that are all subservient to Brussels.

it already is, in the sections where EU law is applicable.

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Our head of state would have no legitamacy

Frankly, she doesn't

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We would officially be represented by the EU President, not the President of Ireland. That is a surrender of national sovereignty, which I'm not willing to concede.

You already have, guv'.
14/07/2008, 8:32 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

If we got rid of the office of the President of Ireland tomorrow what difference would it make to our day to day life?

Under the Irish Constitution, she is head of state, that enforces bills and signs the laws of the land. So it makes a big difference to our day-to-day life. She represents the country on state visits. She has the power to dissolve/form a government, the power to call elections, the power to sign or refuse to sign bills, including the, (if ratified by first a referendum, then by parliament) Lisbon Treaty/EU Constitution. Under the EU Constitution, she would lose all those powers, and recognition. That would be authorised in a darkened room in central Europe. The surrender of national sovereignty, no matter how insignificant it looks, is a red line area afaic.
14/07/2008, 8:36 PM
GavinZac

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

Hypothetical rubbish. Under the Irish Constitution, she is head of state, that enforces bills and signs the laws of the land. So it makes a big difference to our day-to-day life. She represents the country on state visits. Under the EU Constitution, she would lose all those powers, and recognition. That would be authorised in a darkened room in central Europe. The surrender of national sovereignty, no matter how insignificant it looks, is a red line area afaic.

I know this isn't Wikipedia, but I can't help but stick a big fat [citation needed] under that.
14/07/2008, 8:41 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by GavinZac

You already have, guv'.

We haven't. Would you like to be reminded of that ref result again?? :confused:
14/07/2008, 8:48 PM
GavinZac

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

We haven't. Would you like to be reminded of that ref result again?? :confused:

If you mean EU law superseding Irish law, it already does. Every factor you mentioned, except the constitution, already exists. The laughable claim that somehow the EU president would become our head of state via the Lisbon Treaty, however, is about as far off the truth as your assertion that the No vote had anything to do with sovereignty in the first place.
14/07/2008, 8:54 PM
jebus

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

Under the Irish Constitution, she is head of state, that enforces bills and signs the laws of the land. So it makes a big difference to our day-to-day life. She represents the country on state visits. She has the power to dissolve/form a government, the power to call elections, the power to sign or refuse to sign bills, including the, (if ratified by first a referendum, then by parliament) Lisbon Treaty/EU Constitution.

All ********, she's there to go to sporting events and try and look pretty when she is abroad. She has no power, you know it so why pretend otherwise? Can you imagine is she called a press conference tomorrow and said she was dissolving the government? She'd be laughed out of the building.

The office of the President is no longer needed and should be done away with
14/07/2008, 8:57 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by GavinZac

If you mean EU law superseding Irish law, it already does. Every factor you mentioned, except the constitution, already exists.

Well you've finally admitted that Lisbon and the EU Constitution are the same thing. :eek:

Quote:

The laughable claim that somehow the EU president would become our head of state via the Lisbon Treaty

We would have a "President", but under the EU Constitiution, the EU President rules the continent. Our president would have no power, and therefore no official recognition. That's not laughable, that level of power is scary.

In any case, my main gripe is losing the right to the rotating Presidency, which we are entitled to. Are you going to deny that doesn't happen, as well?? :confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

All ********, she's there to go to sporting events and try and look pretty when she is abroad.

:D All *********

Quote:

She has no power, you know it so why pretend otherwise? Can you imagine is she called a press conference tomorrow and said she was dissolving the government? She'd be laughed out of the building.

Where does Bertie Ahern go to dissolve/form the government?? The Press Office?? Prime Time?? Rather no, he goes to the President and formally signs out and in the government with her. On the advice of the sitting Taoiseach, only the President can authorise an election, and if the government can't be formed (as it almost wasn't last year), she has the power to call another election. She authorises and hands over the seals of Office to the new government. Every bill passed by the Dail, has to be signed into law by the President. Just because she doesn't spend 3 days a week howling and yelling in the Dail, and in the papers every day, doesn't mean she has no power.
14/07/2008, 9:17 PM
OneRedArmy

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

:Where does Bertie Ahern go to dissolve/form the government?? The Press Office?? Prime Time?? Rather no, he goes to the President and formally signs out and in the government with her. On the advice of the sitting Taoiseach, only the President can authorise an election, and if the government can't be formed (as it almost wasn't last year), she has the power to call another election. She authorises and hands over the seals of Office to the new government. Every bill passed by the Dail, has to be signed into law by the President. Just because she doesn't spend 3 days a week howling and yelling in the Dail, and in the papers every day, doesn't mean she has no power.

Can you give any examples of how a recent President has done anything other than ratification and follow precedent? (other than Mary McAleese making an ill-judged remark about comparing Northern Protestants to Nazis).

Its a figurehead role and many of the tasks you have mentioned above are also carried out by the Queen who is rarely viewed as having any power in the UK.
14/07/2008, 9:22 PM
John83

Quote:

Originally Posted by jebus

The office of the President is no longer needed and should be done away with

It's worthwhile having a constitutional check on laws being passed. Read up on Cearbhall O'Dalaigh.
14/07/2008, 9:25 PM
superfrank

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

On the advice of the sitting Taoiseach, only the President can authorise an election, and if the government can't be formed (as it almost wasn't last year), she has the power to call another election. She authorises and hands over the seals of Office to the new government. Every bill passed by the Dail, has to be signed into law by the President. Just because she doesn't spend 3 days a week howling and yelling in the Dail, and in the papers every day, doesn't mean she has no power.

All jobs anyone could do. The President is there for show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mypost

We would have a "President", but under the EU Constitiution, the EU President rules the continent. Our president would have no power, and therefore no official recognition. That's not laughable, that level of power is scary.

The EU President would have the same kind of jobs that the Irish President has now. It is not a position of power.

How many people have to tell you that before you realise it?

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