Shay Given

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Originally Posted by Serb

I also thought it was interesting how he described the first goal: ""The [opening] goal was just a blur, I think he's only five yards away from me. Probably when you see it on a replay on TV, it looks like it's savable but when he hits it that hard, you just don't have the time to react. Replays do nothing for goalkeepers". I'm not sure I really buy it, but then again, I've never been a top international goalkeeper.

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I think anyone moving in under 0.1 second in the Olympics sprints is disqualified as a false start.
Most reaction time are in the 0.13s to 0.15s band apparently.
Anyhow I used the VLC player which has quite good controls on it to slow the video down.

The clock was on 10.38 seconds when Torres struck the ball and it didn't chance to 10.39 until the
ball had hit the back of the net and was on it's was down, so I would estimate Shay had 0.05 seconds to save it
as he was about half way between Torres and the back of the net.
So basically no keeper in the world could have saved that by reacting to where the ball was going, all you can
do is basically guess/predict where he is going to put it.
So had he been in an Olympic 'goal saving competition' he would have be disqualified for cheating, ie moving before the ball was struck!!
Same goes for the Fabragas goal I would imagine.

Shay was dead right, I think Roy Keane says he should have saved it, but sometimes Roy has expectation above and beyond reality!!

From watching the game at the time, my first opinion was that short of the spectacular, he had no chance with the 1st or 4th. Not even the fastest reflex reaction goalkeepers that you get in Handball would have had an earthly. But it's the other situations that happened with Shay that lead some to wonder and scrutinise all goals conceded.
As Stutts I think pointed out, the fisted deflection was poor, I don't agree that he should have (or even could have) chested it. I think this is just one of Shay's old weaknesses as distinct from getting old, not deflecting the ball away from danger.
In the pre-game warm ups, Shay is the player I would be drawn to observe like a magnet, he is thee consummate professional.

I don't think he has much chance with the 1st or 4th goals. Stekelenburg also couldn't deal with Gomez's second against Germany - and that ball wasn't travelling near as fast as Torres' shot.

On the 4th goal you have to wonder what Paul Green and Keith Andrews are doing. First goal Dunne comes up with a world class tackle and the rest of the team just ball watch while Torres does his thing. You let players like Torres and Fabregas shoot at will and as hard as they like from 5-10 metres out and you really can't be blaming the goalkeeper.

Paul Green vs Cesc Fabregas, it's like something straight out of my worst nightmare.

And Shay pulled off the save of the tournament so far. No problems with reflexes there.

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Originally Posted by brine3

On the 4th goal you have to wonder what Paul Green and Keith Andrews are doing. First goal Dunne comes up with a world class tackle and the rest of the team just ball watch while Torres does his thing. You let players like Torres and Fabregas shoot at will and as hard as they like from 5-10 metres out and you really can't be blaming the goalkeeper.

Paul Green vs Cesc Fabregas, it's like something straight out of my worst nightmare.

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Green was on the post, yelling out at the lack of cover.
Fabregas came all the way from left side to the right side, right through no man's land, no one picked him up, astonishing by any standard, by any team, at any time. Green was blameless or least culpable

I don't want to come down all hard on Shay but as an ex-keeper I know what can be expected and I just think he got his hands up slow to the first one. I've seen him and other keepers save that type of shot many many times before. Maybe it's down to the lack of high intensity training in the last few weeks, but something has been amiss. He did make a super save but when top keepers go into reverse as they get older I rarely see the decline stop. I said to my mate during the warm up that I was worried and surprised by how he was dealing with shots, punching shots hit at him instead of either catching the ball or taking the heat out of it with his palms. I also think he doesn't look lean enough and it looks to me like he has put on a few pounds in the last year or two. Look at Buffon - similar age I think - but very low body fat. He looks in much better shape, although maybe not a fair comparison as Buffon is of a longer build.

It's an old habit of his not deflecting shots away from danger. In that game he must deflected 5 or 6 shots with his palm, back into the danger areas.
I think the decline (if we can call it at this stage) was more evident in the Croatia game.

I wrote off the Armenia goal as a lapse. Then came the Estonia goal at home which he just missed I think. It doesn't mean that 90% of what he does isn't still excellent but I think the cracks have begun to appear. It's like when your dog's whiskers start to go grey.

Point taken about the parrying back into play but when did fisting shots rather than palming them come into his game? I no like. Maybe it's because I last played using the old Mitre multiplex balls and the new balls require different techniques.

I forgot about those previous lapses in the qualifier and play off, his decline has been mapped, maybe one day soon on a Donegal beach, somebody will trip over a pair of huge goalkeeping gloves left behind and note the footsteps in the sand leading out to sea.

Shay Iolanthe Perrin?

Whether it's now or in a few years time I really hope the old guard hang around Irish football. They have been an inspiration and can continue to be so well into the future.

We've 2 more years under Trap and this system, I don't really see the point in anyone stepping down. There'll obviously be a massive overhaul post 2014 including a new manager but until then its last hurrah territory.

It's been interesting this Euros watching some of the successful teams in a similar position to us having relatively small pools of players, most of them stick with their older better players and I'd have to say that almost all of them have performed fantastically. Shevchenko, Svennson, Mellberg, Rommedahl, Karagounis etc are all mid 30's and well based their best at club level but are invaluable for their countries and really roll back the clocks for their country at tournament time. Age might affect a players ability week in week out but for targeted games theres no problem whatsoever in having older players, its a great advantage in fact for their experience.

The key is to have a good mix. Funny that you should mention Denmark, because they have no problem playing the 20 year old Christian Eriksen in the centre of midfield. I don't see Trap doing that...

given to quit after italy game

Not sure why so many are so eager to get rid of one of the few international class players we have. He hasnt been flawless but he's done more right than wrong in the 2 games and he certainly didnt look like an old crock when he was flying accross the goal to make the save of the championships so far from Xavi.

Its always easy to blame the keeper when things are going wrong (or the referee..... another popular scapegoat when we're losing) but maybe folks will appreciate him a bit more when he's no longer in the team to keep the score down

I don't think "get rid" is the right term. I think Westwood is probably at least as good as Shay at this point and deserves his chance. Without KW there's no way I'd trust Henderson, Randolph or whoever to take Shay's spot until they're ready and I'd be desperate for Shay to stay on.

I think Shay has been one of the best keepers of the EPL era. Even 18-24 months ago I'd have said he's one of the league's best but a new younger generation of keepers like Hart, Krul, Vorm, Mignolet and Al Habsi are snapping right at the heels of the old guard. The Jury is out on De Gea but he has plenty of time to convince. I was never a great fan of Howard or Schwarzer and I've never liked Sorensen, but I'll accept that Friedel is a good example of an ageing keeper still earning his corn.

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Originally Posted by the bear

given to quit after italy game

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I like how they come up with that heading out of an interview where Given directly said "I'll consider it over my holidays with my family."

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Originally Posted by geysir

It's an old habit of his not deflecting shots away from danger. In that game he must deflected 5 or 6 shots with his palm, back into the danger areas.
I think the decline (if we can call it at this stage) was more evident in the Croatia game.

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I think you have to take into account that priority one is to actually prevent a goal.
Trying to deflect it increases the chance you don't get enough on it and it ends up in the back of the net.
A second point is who was first to the ball, a Spaniard of course!!
Again a failure to nark players, had all the players in the box been marked it would not matter much where the ball went.
Shay might have deflected it to the other side fair enough but there was a second unmarked Spaniard there waiting to know it in.

We basically chase the ball around like a bunch of school boys it's like watching 9 year olds playing, everyone chasing the ball.

So there you have it, a play to the left who took the shot, can't push it that way or he will another go, an unmarked
player in the centre and an unmarked player on the right. Great choice, I guess Given could have tried to deflect it
over goal because as good as the Spanish are I don't think any of them have yet mastered the art of flying!!

Shay's excellence for us cannot be doubted. He's the best Irish goalkeeper I've seen.
But, he's not been the same since he's left Newcastle, or more particularly since he had the bad shoulder injury. He's senses were dulled at times, and he was culpable for a few goals in the last campaign.
Russia's first was a prime example I felt at the time.

Nobody likes seeing our great players on the wane, thankfully our press give them certain leeway, and I think that is true in the case of Shay these past season.

TC, why don't you get your teeth into a new thread,
Ireland v Italy perhaps?
;)

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I don't think "get rid" is the right term. I think Westwood is probably at least as good as Shay at this point and deserves his chance. Without KW there's no way I'd trust Henderson, Randolph or whoever to take Shay's spot until they're ready and I'd be desperate for Shay to stay on.

I think Shay has been one of the best keepers of the EPL era. Even 18-24 months ago I'd have said he's one of the league's best but a new younger generation of keepers like Hart, Krul, Vorm, Mignolet and Al Habsi are snapping right at the heels of the old guard. The Jury is out on De Gea but he has plenty of time to convince. I was never a great fan of Howard or Schwarzer and I've never liked Sorensen, but I'll accept that Friedel is a good example of an ageing keeper still earning his corn.

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Van Der Sar seemed to get better every year. I like Shay and don't want to see him go, but he hasn't been the same player since Hart took his place at city. Westwood looks decent but i dont think he has done anything to prove him better than Given.