Eligibility proposal

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21/12/2007, 9:52 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Which is British.

Indeed.

I am an Irishman, born and bred, with British Citizenship.

I was born and bred in the part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland) which is part of the United Kingdom.

The Irish rugby team, represents the Irish Rugby Football Union.

The IRFU administers rugby across two jurisdictions.
21/12/2007, 9:59 AM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

If that is the attitude of Southerners to the all-Ireland rugby teams, one wonders why they are surprised at people from NI who don't want an all-Ireland football team.

The attitude of most 'southerners' (sic.) IMO was this:

It's the team of the people of Ireland. The majority want to hear the SS at Irish games. The majority of the players sing it. I'd say that the majority would accept a compromise that doesn't diminish the teams Irishness. I'd be happy with both flags (Irish and NI) and two anthems providing neither are the national anthem of England/Britain.

But hey why spoil a post with the facts. Your quote of me is basically this: If you don't like the current situation of rugby - which has bent over backwards to accomodate unionist feelings - then nothing is going to appease, bar of course the Union Jack (or the allegedly Irish part of that flag) and GSTQ - then go and support someone else or set up your own unionist and British team from the 6C and enter the 6N (7N it would become). If you find that offensive, tough!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

I thought the Soldier's Song was used for all games, home and away, until fairly recently?

No it wasn't. In fact GSTQ was used upto the seventies by the Welsh RU as our anthem and it even mentioned 'respect for our visitors' in the programme. (GSpain thinks it was to do with some royals turning up, but I'm waiting to see the proof that they actually did. Di only turned up for romps with Bum Chin if the rumours are true (Well they were strong eough to split up Bum Chin's marriage to that bird on VH1). Happy days for you I bet. :rolleyes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

But many Irishmen and women are British.

Another example of relegatiing Irishness to a regionality. :D The answer is to have two anthems like South Africa - The SS and one representing NI - instead of the current sh*t. If you want GSTQ for rugby then play the SS along with it NI games aswell.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

And many Irishmen and women are not Southern Irish, so why should they accept the Soldier's Song?

You don't seem to have a very even-handed approach!

Pretty stupid statement here. Many non 'southerners' accept the SS because they believe it the anthem of the Irish nation and that they have Irish as a nationality not as a regionality to another country.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Absolutely not.

Miniority interests should be respected but majority interests should be adhered to. If matches are to played in the country of Ireland, out of respect to its people and the state, the national anthem should be played every time an international sporting event takes place within its territories.

Minority interests only work one way with these people. Ask them to recognise any of the symbols of Irish nationalism and they bring up the foreign country argument. Fine! That's why I'm so glad FIFA have decided to allow anyone eleigible for Irish citizenship to play for Ireland. There's certainly no shortage of support from the O6C when I go and watch Ireland play.
21/12/2007, 10:01 AM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

...I was born and bred in the part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland) which is part of the United Kingdom...

I just love how you coined that. Not 'born in a part of the United Kingdom which is part of Ireland.' Thanks for clearing up the hierarchy of your Irishness. :D
21/12/2007, 10:03 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Indeed.

I am an Irishman, born and bred, with British Citizenship.

I was born and bred in the part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland) which is part of the United Kingdom.

The Irish rugby team, represents the Irish Rugby Football Union.

The IRFU administers rugby across two jurisdictions.

Good for you. I'm glad we cleared that up.

The IRFU has accommodated minority interests through the adoption of a neutral flag and the adoption of a neutral rugby anthem. But as I've already stated, whilst minority interests should be respected, majority interests should be adhered to.
21/12/2007, 10:04 AM
Absinthe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil http://foot.ie/inc/img/buttons/viewpost.gif
As a proud Irishman, I can assure you that the Soldiers Song and Tricolor will never represent my nationality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Which is British.

Maybe you should sing GSTQ as a mark of respect to Darron Gibson the next time he lines up for you then?
21/12/2007, 10:06 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

I just love how you coined that. Not 'born in a part of the United Kingdom which is part of Ireland.' Thanks for clearing up the hierarchy of your Irishness. :D

:confused:

Whatever.
21/12/2007, 10:09 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

But as I've already stated, whilst minority interests should be respected, majority interests should be adhered to.

A bit of a boot in the balls that for "parity of esteem" and an "Ireland of equals".

Majority rule, with tokenism.

Way to go.:D
21/12/2007, 10:11 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

A bit of a boot in the balls that for "parity of esteem" and an "Ireland of equals".

Majority rule, with tokenism.

Way to go.:D

And what's your solution?
21/12/2007, 10:11 AM
Absinthe

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

Good for you. I'm glad we cleared that up.

The IRFU has accommodated minority interests through the adoption of a neutral flag and the adoption of a neutral rugby anthem. But as I've already stated, whilst minority interests should be respected, majority interests should be adhered to.

Have they? I dont believe they have played in Dublin since the gamve in Belfast against Italy. I will be very surprised if only 'Ireland Call' is sang. I will also be pleasantly surprised if the Tricolour is not on 'official' display. i.e. The crowd can wave whatever they like, it genuinely doesnt bother me, but the team should be represented by the IRB flag.
21/12/2007, 10:12 AM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Great arguement for the retention of GSTQ at Northern Ireland matches.

Basically, the "Ireland" rugby team, is a ROI rugby team, with a few folk of "minority interest" invited to play.

As a proud Irishman, I can assure you that the Soldiers Song and Tricolor will never represent my nationality.

You carry on keeping it. I frankly couldn't give a sh*t. I'd say the majority of NI fans want to keep it - where you going to put 'No Surrender' in Danny Boy? - Nationalists have been able to watch, and have watched a team standing for an Irish anthem for years. Now FIFA have confirmed they can be on that team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blanchflower

Incidentally, what about flags? What flags were/are flown to represent the Irish rugby team at away matches?

I haven't been to many rugby games since the mid eighties (tickets hard to get hold of) when the team was heavily Ulster based. A game at Murrayfield in 1985 had the tan flag you call 'the St Patrick's Cross.' You may as well have put up the Butchers' Apron as far as I'm concerned. FFS: What's wrong with the Tricolour and the NI flag?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absinthe

Maybe you should sing GSTQ as a mark of respect to Darron Gibson the next time he lines up for you then?

Taking the name of a drink you have first thing in the morning as your username. Love it! :D
21/12/2007, 10:14 AM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absinthe

...the team should be represented by the IRB flag.

Don't you mean IRFU?
21/12/2007, 10:14 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absinthe

Have they? I dont believe they have played in Dublin since the gamve in Belfast against Italy. I will be very surprised if only 'Ireland Call' is sang. I will also be pleasantly surprised if the Tricolour is not on 'official' display. i.e. The crowd can wave whatever they like, it genuinely doesnt bother me, but the team should be represented by the IRB flag.

As the team represents Ireland, and as the team is playing matches within the terriorities of Ireland, the Irish national anthem should be played and the national flag of Ireland should be displayed.
21/12/2007, 10:14 AM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

No my position is that minority interests should be respected but majority interests adhered to.

That doesn't answer my questions.

If Lansdowne Road/Croke Park hosted, say, a World Cup semi-final between South Africa and France - are you saying that the Soldier's Song should be played?

By your logic, God Save the Queen should have been played at the Italy match. Is that your position?
21/12/2007, 10:18 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifk101

And what's your solution?

In terms of the IRFU representative team?

I've already given it.

You support "majority rule", with tokenism.

You are against "parity of esteem".
21/12/2007, 10:26 AM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

In terms of the IRFU representative team?

I've already given it.

You support "majority rule", with tokenism.

You are against "parity of esteem".

That's exactly what we have from the IFA.
21/12/2007, 10:29 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

That's exactly what we have from the IFA.

I was replying to ifk.

He is obviously a supporter of the IFA stance.

Watch the blood pressure.:D
21/12/2007, 10:34 AM
GavinZac

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Indeed.

I am an Irishman, born and bred, with British Citizenship.

I was born and bred in the part of the island of Ireland (Northern Ireland) which is part of the United Kingdom.

The Irish rugby team, represents the Irish Rugby Football Union.

The IRFU administers rugby across two jurisdictions.

If you're describing yourself as Irish because you were born on the island of Ireland, wouldn't that exclude you from being British, as you weren't born on the island of Britain? Furthermore, wouldn't that then make you, by citizenship, simply a citizen of the UKGBI?
21/12/2007, 10:35 AM
ifk101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

In terms of the IRFU representative team?

I've already given it.

You support "majority rule", with tokenism.

You are against "parity of esteem".

"Parity of esteem" isn't applicable here as you have pointed out that you are Irish so we share the same identity and we shouldn't have any conflicts of interests. As the vast majority of people on the island of Ireland identify with the Irish National Flag and the Irish National anthem, this identification should be respected and not ignored.
21/12/2007, 10:35 AM
Blanchflower

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

The attitude of most 'southerners' (sic.) IMO was this:

It's the team of the people of Ireland. The majority want to hear the SS at Irish games. The majority of the players sing it. I'd say that the majority would accept a compromise that doesn't diminish the teams Irishness. I'd be happy with both flags (Irish and NI) and two anthems providing neither are the national anthem of England/Britain.

But hey why spoil a post with the facts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lopez

Your quote of me is basically this: If you don't like the current situation of rugby - which has bent over backwards to accomodate unionist feelings - then nothing is going to appease, bar of course the Union Jack (or the allegedly Irish part of that flag) and GSTQ - then go and support someone else or set up your own unionist and British team from the 6C and enter the 6N (7N it would become). If you find that offensive, tough!

You're contradicting yourself. Your first post says you want a compromise, the second post says that unionists can f*ck off if they don't like the current set-up.:mad:

It's ludicrous to say that the IRFU has "bent over backwards" to accommodate unionist feelings. In the first instance, you view the "accommodation of unionist feelings" as something which is the result of the good-hearted generosity of the IRFU and for which unionists should be thankful. This indicates that you see the Ireland rugby team - not as a genuine all-Ireland team - but as essentially an ROI/nationalist institution with a bit of Northern/unionist involvement who need to be appeased out of politeness.

Second, it is hardly "bending over backwards" to rip up an ostensibly even-handed policy in respect of flags and anthems in order to introduce a new one-sided policy whereby Southern flags and anthems are used in the South, but matches in the North are treated as away matches.

Third, it is hardly "bending over backwards" to do nothing about introducing a neutral anthem for 50-odd years.

Quote:

No it wasn't.

Er, I've already stood corrected on that.

Quote:

In fact GSTQ was used upto the seventies by the Welsh RU as our anthem and it even mentioned 'respect for our visitors' in the programme.

Bizarre, if true.

Quote:

Another example of relegatiing Irishness to a regionality.

Not in the least. Those Irishmen and women who are British are no less Irish because of it. Don't attribute your narrow mindset to others.

Quote:

The answer is to have two anthems like South Africa - The SS and one representing NI - instead of the current sh*t.

That would mean changing the status quo, about which you said earlier people should feck off if they didn't like it.

Two anthems is fine by me, although I would have thought a single, neutral anthem would be preferable.

Quote:

If you want GSTQ for rugby then play the SS along with it NI games aswell.

That doesn't make sense. NI is not an all-Ireland team.

Quote:

Pretty stupid statement here. Many non 'southerners' accept the SS because they believe it the anthem of the Irish nation and that they have Irish as a nationality not as a regionality to another country.

Not stupid in the least. If Southerners object to the Northern anthem because they are not British, it is no more or no less stupid for Northerners to object to the Southern anthem because they are not Southern Irish. What some people "believe" about the Southern anthem is irrelevant.

Quote:

Minority interests only work one way with these people. Ask them to recognise any of the symbols of Irish nationalism and they bring up the foreign country argument. Fine! That's why I'm so glad FIFA have decided to allow anyone eleigible for Irish citizenship to play for Ireland. There's certainly no shortage of support from the O6C when I go and watch Ireland play.

I don't see what you're saying here. What have the "symbols of Irish nationalism" got to do with anything and who is being asked to, or refusing to, recognise them?

And your continual references to "Ireland" won't alter the fact that the team you refer to is only a 26-county team.
21/12/2007, 10:36 AM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by GavinZac

If you're describing yourself as Irish because you were born on the island of Ireland, wouldn't that exclude you from being British, as you weren't born on the island of Britain? Furthermore, wouldn't that then make you, by citizenship, simply a citizen of the UKGBI?

I am a British Citizen.

I am Irish by birthright.

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