James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

If it was a Northern Irish born player switching to England, I'm sure it would be met with anger by the Northern Ireland fans.

Of course, in order to do that, a Northern Irish born player would need to have an English born parent or grandparent to have a chance of such a switch. I think you'll be a long time waiting to put your question to the test.

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No, I'm referring to English-born players. Take Michael Keane switching to the England from Ireland, with worries that Sean McGinty will follow suit.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

1. O'Neill was absolutely wrong to even entertain the notion of approaching either McClean or Wilson.
2. What do you define as a 'sectarian flag'?
3. I said he comes across as a bit of a sectarian bigot. In his press statements eg, 'not many Catholics' in the squads (how many is not many James?), it comes across that he is uncomfortable with Protestants. He seems eager to bang on about where he says his prayers...why?

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Fair of you to acknowledge that. But that only served to exemplify some of the double-standards that I feel are more at large from Northern Ireland's side.

A flag which holds sectarian connotations.

Again, I don't live in the North and, honestly, I have barely ventured into the North but I'm presuming that where McClean lives, for the most part, the lines between 'protestant' and 'catholic' are fairly black and white. I don't think he intends any sectarian bigotry in his comments, I think that should be set aside as naivety on his part and the actual intention of the comments should only be interpreted. It's not as if he's interchanging 'african-american' with the 'N-word' with the actual intention of bigotry.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

What does that mean, exactly?

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How many times must I ask? I'm just wondering are there flags in Windsor Park which make sectarian references? I've never been.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Do you mean the lines between where people say their prayers?

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Not at all, I'm referring to the fact that McClean's comments infer a black and white, protestant/unionist and catholic/republican approach. I'm only saying that when McClean speaks he uses these terms maybe due to a combination of habit and belief. I'd go for habit, rather than belief.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Same rules apply.

If we have any player in our set up who harbours realistic ambitions of playing for England at Senior International level, they should do the right thing and chase their dream with England.

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At times, the benefit of the player should come before the association though. I don't hold any grudge against Micheal Keane realising that his ambition to play for England could be realised, now that he was playing regular for Man United's reserves and making the bench for the first team at his age. It was far more difficult for him to envisage that when he was playing under 17 for Ireland.
It's very difficult for a player to know, at a young age, whether they have a realistic shot of playing senior football for the national side they so wish. The player may not realise that their ambition is realistic until the age of 22, as was the case for James McClean.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

Official capacity? Who cares about the official capacity? I don't think James is worried about how the British State chooses to represent itself.
Why are you being deliberately obtuse about this?

You can be offended at whatever the hell you want to be if you attend an Irish rugby match. If the fact that Denis Leamy or Donnchadh O'Callaghan is in the team I think the presence of them should offend more than a Tricolour.

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For the record, James is not quoted as saying he was offended by the Union Jack.

And where on earth do people get all these add-on supposed quotes/interpretations from?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Some fans bring them - I suspect will see more fans with them, going forward.

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Weren't you disputing this under your more obstinate persona on another forum? Why do you think their appearance will become more prevalent? Is that a good thing or bad thing, in your opinion?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

3. I'm sure some of republicanism's founding fathers would be well impressed by young James using the word "Catholic" as being interchangeable with "Republican".

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They'd probably think he was misguided, naive and careless.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Correct - he is merely uncomfortable with it.

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Does such make him a sectarian bigot? I wouldn't have thought so. It's not his national flag.

As far as the Union flag is concerned, it's no more or less sectarian than, say, the Irish tricolour. NI fans can wave it all they want; it is their flag, after all.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

As far as the Union flag is concerned, it's no more or less sectarian than, say, the Irish tricolour. NI fans can wave it all they want; it is their flag, after all.

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Indeed they can, but they can't force people who don't want to play for them to play for them.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Indeed they can, but they can't force people who don't want to play for them to play for them.

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Agreed. They can't have their cake and eat it.

Talk of Irish nationals like McClean being unwilling to play for a British association due to bigotry, sectarianism or some chip on their shoulder is therefore misguided. They simply identify as neither British nor Northern Irish and would rather play for the FAI, through whom their national identity is actually channelled.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

1. No, I have never disputed that some Northern Ireland fans bring Union Flags to Northern Ireland matches. I think we will see a few more in future because some fans will object to those they perceive wish to see the demise of Northern Ireland giving off about Union Flags at Northern Ireland matches. I'd prefer the Union Flags we're not brought, but it doesn't exercise me that they are because it is the flag of Northern Ireland. I would like to see more St Patrick's Crosses at our matches.

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Clearly, to some, the unionist identity of the Northern Ireland team is vastly more important than cross-community relations. And these same people accuse everyone else of damaging the so-called "cross-community" team.

Not Brazil: I'm not sure why you differentiate between realistic and unrealistic ambitions. When it comes down to the morality behind it what's the difference?

If a player wants to play for another country, I don't see why if they can or not should change your opinion. Surely you either don't want any players playing for you who want to play for someone else, or you want them all? I doubt there's many 18,19,20 year olds who are confident they'll get capped for their first choice country. I don't see why McClean hedging his bets is any different from someone less talented doing the same.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I think, to some, they are not prepared to dilute their identity to appease those who wish Northern Ireland and it's international football teams didn't exist - or so they say.

They would tell you, with some validity, that Northern Ireland only exists because of the Union.

They would tell you, with authority, that the IFA is a British Association.

They would also tell you that they will give equal support to any player, regardless of background, who gives his all in a
Northern Ireland shirt - their support of Paddy McCourt, Niall McGinn, Shane Ferguson etc would suggest this to be the case.

I agree with Danny Invincible on this issue of flags etc - they are a red herring.

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So the idea of making the NI team as cross-community as possible is a bit disingenuous, when it staunchly remains a symbol of their unionist identity.

The IFA cited "Football For All" in response to McClean's comments about not feeling at home or welcome, but remained deafeningly silent when it came to the things that contribute to his, and others', discomfort. That is telling.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

1. No, I have never disputed that some Northern Ireland fans bring Union Flags to Northern Ireland matches.

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Was it just their appearance at Windsor Park you were disputing then?

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2. That's what I said in post #971

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That comment was directed more generally rather than at you specifically. I was backing you up.

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Originally Posted by Predator

So the idea of making the NI team as cross-community as possible is a bit disingenuous, when it staunchly remains a symbol of their unionist identity.

The IFA cited "Football For All" in response to McClean's comments about not feeling at home or welcome, but remained deafeningly silent when it came to the things that contribute to his, and others', discomfort. That is telling.

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The IFA already commented on the anthem issue a few months ago, via a written piece by Gerry Armstrong. They have no intention of changing it because they fear upsetting current NI fans who'd presumably view it as a dilution of identity, or so they say anyway. Deflection of responsibility?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

If it was a Northern Irish born player switching to England, I'm sure it would be met with anger by the Northern Ireland fans.

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Same brand of anger or a little less vitriolic?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

No issues with that whatsoever.

Such players should not wear a Northern Ireland shirt, unless they have chased their dream with the FAI and sought a switch to the IFA.

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Or play for the Republic where they have a chance of winning something.

I mean, there is no NI rugby team is there?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I would like Northern Irish born players, with boyhood dreams of playing for the South, to contact the FAI at Under 19 level, and ask them to be considered for inclusion in FAI representative sides.

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Why should these players have to contact the FAI? I think they should be treated with normal practice for any other player and be offered a call-up by an association for which they are eligible, namely the FAI.

Obviously, there are caveats in this proposal. But it offers players that are of sufficient quality the opportunity to play with the FAI, because the offer should be made on the football association's part, not on the players part. The FAI's net can be cast on the 32 counties and so selection process should reflect this.

Although this approach would create tension as another "poaching our players" racket would be inevitable and, of course, clearly ignorant of facts.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

The IFA already commented on the anthem issue a few months ago, via a written piece by Gerry Armstrong. They have no intention of changing it because they fear upsetting current NI fans who'd presumably view it as a dilution of identity, or so they say anyway. Deflection of responsibility?

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Can we take it that Gerry Armstrong's opinion in a regional paper constitutes the official IFA line? I'm not sure.

It is absolutely a deflection of their responsibility to the people of the north, for whom they govern football with FIFA's permission. If the IFA truly wanted to be "cross-community", they'd catch themselves on and become as neutral as possible. Ostensibly, however, they are more concerned about the identity issues of hardcore union-jack-waving, god-save-the-queen-singing unionists.

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Originally Posted by geysir

For the record, James is not quoted as saying he was offended by the Union Jack.

And where on earth do people get all these add-on supposed quotes/interpretations from?

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I should have said uncomfortable rather than offended. My bad.

Though since using words interchangeably is all the rage around here I figure. What the hell!!!

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Or play for the Republic where they have a chance of winning something.

I mean, there is no NI rugby team is there?

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I think you should investigate the reasoning behind the split in soccer before mentioning rugby union.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

The IFA already commented on the anthem issue a few months ago, via a written piece by Gerry Armstrong. They have no intention of changing it because they fear upsetting current NI fans who'd presumably view it as a dilution of identity, or so they say anyway. Deflection of responsibility?

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In this instance, the imbalance is obviously re-inforced. So, steps by the IFA to reflect the cross-community that exists is considered dilution? This merely serves to compound the fact that the current identity does not and will not facilitate certain members of the community, such as James McClean. Then again, certain people have expressed that he comes across as a bigot. The mind boggles.

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Originally Posted by Olé Olé

In this instance, the imbalance is obviously re-inforced. So, steps by the IFA to reflect the cross-community that exists is considered dilution? This merely serves to compound the fact that the current identity does not and will not facilitate certain members of the community, such as James McClean. Then again, certain people have expressed that he comes across as a bigot. The mind boggles.

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Yes, indeed. Some would have you believe that it's all James' problem for not warming to the union jacks, god save the queen and the like. He should be proud to play for the country he was born in! The IFA and IFA fans have no responsibility to bear. :confused:

Be nice if he scored against Man U today!!

Last minute goal costing them the title!!