Roy Keane

I know that this will come across as being a bit odd, but we need to consider where Roy's coming from and also his "demons". The man has an addictive and self-destructive personality. He kicked the bottle (not in the Staunton sense) and just about prolonged his career. He left so many question marks surrounding his career that it must haunt him (his moves abroad which he scuppered by chickening out and staying at home). If he had not used his ability as a footballer I don't believe there is much doubt that there were chances he'd have ended up quite badly in his life, I think it can kindly be called the gurrier mentality.

His bits about being "hurt" while at Sunderland (and United and Ireland) are frightening. It's hard to figure whether he's using it to excuse his behaviour or he's being brutally honest. Either way he is a) self-delusional, or b) very damaged. He knows little else other than football, or so he thinks, though he is so unsuited to such work at present that his next adventure will be another meltdown. He had his chances but he just couldn't complete it, no shame in that, but his apologists in the media will always love him into another position because he makes their lives so easy.

I think it's not fair on Keane to believe that every word he speaks in a 60 minute interview to a fringe Christian radio station in Cork is a calculated snipe or dig. I haven't listened to the interview but, as I've pointed out above, his case that the team's Irishness is more "diluted" now than it was in his time is just plain wrong, but I can't disagree with his view on the mooted arrival of O'Hara, Pennant et al.

I think we all agree that the team represents the diaspora, not just the Irish born & bred, but this isn't inconsistent with hoops1's view, though I believe he too is wrong in his initial statement.

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

So you've no relations who've ever left Ireland who claimed to be 'Irish' then??

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I don't think that's what hoops1 was saying though. He's saying it about those who only remember when they won't get picked for the Soctland and England.

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Originally Posted by Owlsfan

To me my team (Ireland) is a like a club and I don't give a fiddler's flam who turns up in the green jersey provided they give 100%. It doesn't cast me a thought.

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Pretty much sums up why I have no interest in international football anymore. It is supposed to be different from club football. And yet at the same time the likes of Stephen Ireland or Keane get criticised for turning their back on their country - pretty much double standards imo.

It is supposed to be different from club football Macy and that is why FIFA have to stop changing the eligibility rules. Surely the point of international football is that footballers from the same country (whether born there or diaspora) get together and represent their country. Clubs can buy in talent but in international football you should be forced to utilise the talents that are at your disposal. Qatar bringing over Brazilians, Europeans and Africans to try and ensure they qualify for major tournaments is a con. They might try hard and be committed but that doesn't mean it's right.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Pretty much sums up why I have no interest in international football anymore.

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Why bother posting here then? :)~

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Originally Posted by Macy

It is supposed to be different from club football. And yet at the same time the likes of Stephen Ireland or Keane get criticised for turning their back on their country - pretty much double standards imo

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Is it though? Sligo Rovers are supported primarily by people from Sligo, Everton by people from Liverpool, Sheffield Wednesday by people from Sheffield, Shamrock Rovers by people from south Dublin, Manchester United by....well, errr, ummm people all over the world but by and large clubs are supported by people from the area the club is based and the supporters don't care where the players come from so long as they play for the jersey. Ireland is my country (like Shamrock Rovers is my local side) and most of the players will be born in this country and if there are a few so-called mercenaries or plastics among them, so be it. Doesn't cast me a thought.

As for Keane and Ireland (S), it was all the bull*hit and smokescreens that went with it that annoyed me but it's all been said before.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Why bother posting here then? :)~

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Well I try not to care, but I would like to support the National team, it's just this type of bs and double standards makes it very hard.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Ireland is my country (like Shamrock Rovers is my local side) and most of the players will be born in this country and if there are a few so-called mercenaries or plastics among them, so be it. Doesn't cast me a thought.

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It devalues what it means to represent your country, imo. I think I've been long enough posting on foot.ie for people to know that where someone is born or brought up isn't the defining factor for me. The majority are happy with the current situation and will take any player going, no matter how tenious the link, just to improve the team. That's their perogative, but it doesn't mean we all have to embrace it. It will kill international football in the long run though, when you dilute it to an extent it's seen as an extra club side, more and more players just won't bother their hole playing international football, retire early etc.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Well I try not to care, but I would like to support the National team, it's just this type of bs and double standards makes it very hard.


It devalues what it means to represent your country, imo. I think I've been long enough posting on foot.ie for people to know that where someone is born or brought up isn't the defining factor for me. The majority are happy with the current situation and will take any player going, no matter how tenious the link, just to improve the team. That's their perogative, but it doesn't mean we all have to embrace it. It will kill international football in the long run though, when you dilute it to an extent it's seen as an extra club side, more and more players just won't bother their hole playing international football, retire early etc.

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I don't think international football will be 'killed' by Granny-rulers in the long run - the principal FIFA rules on the issue have been in effect for a very long time, going back to Shay Brennan in the 1960s. As Stutts has pointed out, there are far fewer Granny-rulers in the Irish squad now than there were 15 years ago. Pre-Bosman, international football was top dog, but now with so much money in the club game, and the elite clubs becoming horrendously wealthy multinational entities, international football has been overtaken as a spectacle, and in terms of prestige, sponsorship and popularity. That would be my worry about the international game, long-run.

Things like Simon Cox being picked as our seventh-choice striker don't really make me fear for the future of international football. The situation with Qatar has been dealt with and forbidden by FIFA, and really isn't relevant.

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Originally Posted by Macy

I think I've been long enough posting on foot.ie for people to know that where someone is born or brought up isn't the defining factor for me. The majority are happy with the current situation and will take any player going, no matter how tenious the link, just to improve the team. That's their perogative, but it doesn't mean we all have to embrace it.

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I don't really think many embrace the likes of O'Hara, who has said straight out he'll consider us if all else fails. However, there is nothing any of us can do about the rules, so if O'Hara does end up wearing green, most of us probably won't agree with it, but we're not going to be so put out that we'll stop supporting Ireland altogether. Therefore, the only alternative is to hope he does a good job for us and support him like we do the rest.

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Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

It's slightly more complicated than just saying that you ha e Irish heritage and that being enough. I'm surrounded by Irish Americans who are well meaning but don't have a clue about modern Ireland. So I think an effort needs to be made to understand the true culture of Ireland to consider yourself Irish (the Kevin Kilbne test if you will) My boy already has a passport and will spend meaningful amounts of time in Ireland.

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So would a lot of natives too?

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

So would a lot of natives too?

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In fairness though they at least wallow in the ignorance by living there. No it's more that many Irish-American's worship a country that doesn't, and perhaps never did, exist. It can be hard to relate to and it would be utterly patronizing if it wasn't so sincere. The Irish American Heritage Centre here in Chicago is a different world sometimes.

My thinking is that an effort needs to be made to consider yourself Irish. That's my test anyways.

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Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

In fairness though they at least wallow in the ignorance by living there. No it's more that many Irish-American's worship a country that doesn't, and perhaps never did, exist. It can be hard to relate to and it would be utterly patronizing if it wasn't so sincere. The Irish American Heritage Centre here in Chicago is a different world sometimes.

My thinking is that an effort needs to be made to consider yourself Irish. That's my test anyways.

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I agree with you on this point, and that effort has to be more than just drinking Guinness and wearing green on St. Patrick's Day. Compare them with Kilbane who wore his Irish shirt to the England tryouts or Connolly whose father took him to Croke Park for the All-Ireland hurling final in 1987 to support Galway. Never been to the Heritage Center here though so I can't attest to that, I do know its on the northwest side though and see signs for it on the Kennedy.

I think people in Ireland perhaps have an idea of Irish Americans as maybe their first cousins or siblings who do still have roots in Ireland when in reality most Irish Americans are probably 5th or 6th generation who through their fathers have retained an Irish name. Not sure if thats the case in England.

Knowing Roy he probably thought he deserved the captaincy over Townsend in '94 and is still mad about that.

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Originally Posted by Macy

I don't think that's what hoops1 was saying though. He's saying it about those who only remember when they won't get picked for the Soctland and England.

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How does one know though really how a particular player might feel at any point in their life unless the player concerned actually comes out and says something on the matter? As has been mentioned earlier, it's very possible that a sense of Irishness can develop as a second or third-generation individual matures and seeks to learn more about their heritage. Maybe their parents didn't instil a sense of pride in heritage from a young age, but should they necessarily be chastised for this if willing to investigate? And what about Barry Maguire, for example?

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Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

In fairness though they at least wallow in the ignorance by living there. No it's more that many Irish-American's worship a country that doesn't, and perhaps never did, exist. It can be hard to relate to and it would be utterly patronizing if it wasn't so sincere. The Irish American Heritage Centre here in Chicago is a different world sometimes.

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Hehe, I do like this painting on the website:

http://irish-american.org/images/sto...9/IMG_0105.jpg

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Originally Posted by Fergie's Son

In fairness though they at least wallow in the ignorance by living there. No it's more that many Irish-American's worship a country that doesn't, and perhaps never did, exist. It can be hard to relate to and it would be utterly patronizing if it wasn't so sincere. The Irish American Heritage Centre here in Chicago is a different world sometimes.

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Dont forget that Chicago and its culture are only great to Chicagoans. The midwest in general, might not have great heritage centers pertaining to any country. I loathe going there on business. You might find better Irish American Stock elsewhere that are more intuned with the History you value. An Irish American friend I know just wrote a Phd dissertation on 'Ireland: 1900-1920.' I assure you he understands his Irish roots.
But you should submit a test for all of us plastic paddy's just lucky enough to spend summers there like I was, then decide If we can root for the national team or not.
And another question I might ask is, why do you not live in Ireland? Surely not for the weather.

To be fair, even to the most detached Irish-Americans, their Irishness is based on individual thought. However 'misguided'.

It may be not definitive to most, but is part of the beauty of what makes up the different strands of Irish culture through its wider population, which has been dispersed for centuries.

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Originally Posted by Crosby87

Dont forget that Chicago and its culture are only great to Chicagoans. The midwest in general, might not have great heritage centers pertaining to any country. I loathe going there on business. You might find better Irish American Stock elsewhere that are more intuned with the History you value. An Irish American friend I know just wrote a Phd dissertation on 'Ireland: 1900-1920.' I assure you he understands his Irish roots.
But you should submit a test for all of us plastic paddy's just lucky enough to spend summers there like I was, then decide If we can root for the national team or not.
And another question I might ask is, why do you not live in Ireland? Surely not for the weather.

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Yes and everyone loves our loud, obnoxious New Yorkers and their festering cesspool of a city. :rolleyes: Having worked at a tourist spot I can say that the vast majority of the people leaving tell me how much they enjoy the city and its unique attributes. If you loathe coming here on business you and your "more intuned" Irish Americans can kindly stay the **** away.

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Originally Posted by Supreme feet

I don't think international football will be 'killed' by Granny-rulers in the long run - the principal FIFA rules on the issue have been in effect for a very long time, going back to Shay Brennan in the 1960s. As Stutts has pointed out, there are far fewer Granny-rulers in the Irish squad now than there were 15 years ago. Pre-Bosman, international football was top dog, but now with so much money in the club game, and the elite clubs becoming horrendously wealthy multinational entities, international football has been overtaken as a spectacle, and in terms of prestige, sponsorship and popularity. That would be my worry about the international game, long-run.

Things like Simon Cox being picked as our seventh-choice striker don't really make me fear for the future of international football. The situation with Qatar has been dealt with and forbidden by FIFA, and really isn't relevant.

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I agree totally.

In fact, the Irish team was never more popular among the Irish than when we had way more granny-rulers than we do now.

I think that change is finally beckoning within FIFA and European football's new Financial Fair Play era could well lead a reversal of the international game's prestige versus the club game.

Controversially, I think I actually want Blatter to win another term. For all his faults, I think he stands up for the international game and stands up to club football very well. I don't think Bin Hamman will be as strong. I'm confident that FIFA is about to enjoy its "Salt Late City" moment and that governance and ethical standards will improve because of the scrutiny currently beginning to be applied, not least by MPs like Damien Collins over here.

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Originally Posted by theworm2345

Yes and everyone loves our loud, obnoxious New Yorkers and their festering cesspool of a city. :rolleyes: Having worked at a tourist spot I can say that the vast majority of the people leaving tell me how much they enjoy the city and its unique attributes. If you loathe coming here on business you and your "more intuned" Irish Americans can kindly stay the **** away.

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New York doesnt hold a candle to Chicago. One of my favourite cities in the world.

But lets keep this on topic - I wonder what Roy Keanes favourite cities are?

Cork you bloody idiot!

Never liked Chicago but I can understand people who do. Eskimos? Silly argument anyway, they call themselves "The Second City." Who calls themselves that? Its the Brussels of the US.
Second to whom? Most think Vegas and LA are better so wouldn't that make it "The Fourth City?" (At least)? I know a lot of people, including Grant Achatz, rate San Fran better on food alone.

My point is I don't think many "Irish-Americans" portend to be as Irish as people born and raised in Ireland. I enjoy watching the Irish team and will continue to do so and if Admin wanted to ban me due to the Xenophobia that is perpetrated by some of the slower readers on here, he would have done so many posts ago. I have a good auld Irish last name. Im proud of it.
I dont care to come on here to have silly arguments and I apologize for contributing to it. The Irish team is better off with players like Mc G and Jimmy Mac and with fans around the world proud of their Irish Heritage. And yes, I know how to pronounce "Saoirse". (Fairplay almost no one seems to know, Irish American or not.)
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