Lisbon Treaty

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Originally Posted by Macy

To be out debated by Mary Lou is some going - and he was thought as a potential leader of FF only a few years ago!

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That sounds bad as she is hopeless. He will never be FF leader.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Martin was on the Last Word last night and was asked repeatedly to give one benefit to Ireland of the treaty being passed. He couldn't...

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...because there isn't any benefit to us.

Even the date of the referendum is timed, so that the little Slovenians have to deal with the fall out if we vote the "wrong" way, rather than the all-powerful Sarkosy in July. :rolleyes:

Its being portrayed as if "you vote no, you're anti Europe" and that really shows the yes side have nothing to say.

Listening to Martin being singularly incapable of listing just one thing that would benefit Ireland was a revelation.

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Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan warned today that a No vote on the Lisbon Treaty would be a "step into isolation for Ireland."

Mr Lenihan, who made the comments after a meeting of EU finance ministers in Brussels, said a No vote would damage the Irish economy.

Earlier in the day, the Minister addressed the EU American Chamber of Commerce where he said that membership of the European Union had brought “countless benefits” for Ireland.

“We are the only Member State to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty. We have an opportunity to demonstrate once again our strong commitment to Europe, which has been of such enormous benefit to Ireland, and our strong commitment to the principle of reform of institutions to improve their efficiency and effectiveness, said Mr Lenihan.

“A Yes vote to the Lisbon Treaty will ensure that Ireland remains at the centre of a more effective and efficient European Union. It is precisely this status that has brought us the high level of foreign direct investment that we have achieved thus far. I believe the single market will become even more important as we focus on export led economic growth to compensate for the readjustment of housing construction to more sustainable levels,” he said.

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The same tactic again. :rolleyes:

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Labour MEP, Proinsias De Rossa said that the treaty would safeguard and promote public services. “The Treaty makes considerable progress in the long-running campaign to achieve better protections for public services in the context of EU competition law,” said Mr De Rossa.

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And this waffle benefits us in what way?? :confused:

Brian "I never read the Treaty" Cowan doesn't help matters. Still though just because out elected leaders are idiots should not be a reason to vote No.

The debate on both sides has been fairly useless. Why the Yes side cannot come up with tangible benefits many on the No side just coming up standard anti-EU "think of the children" claims.

The ignorance of the No camp doesn't negate the ignorance of the Yes camp. At its most basic, there has to be an argument for, or there shouldn't be an argument at all.

Amending legislation to retain the status quo doesn't make sense; and let's be honest, has to be considered pretty shifty.

This treaty is all about power distribution for politicians, not countries or their citizens.

adam

I'm in favour of a federal Europe, a common defence force and any pan-European enterprise you care to mention, but I plan to vote against the treaty. What made up my mind was this quote from Patricia Callan of the Small Firms Association: "The Lisbon Treaty will safeguard our low corporate tax regime, our attractiveness as a destination for foreign direct investment and our flexible labour market."

I think we all understand what euphemisms like that coming from loathsome organisations like IBEC and the SFA actually mean. No wonder the employers' lobby is backing it so strongly.

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

The ignorance of the No camp doesn't negate the ignorance of the Yes camp. At its most basic, there has to be an argument for, or there shouldn't be an argument at all.

Amending legislation to retain the status quo doesn't make sense; and let's be honest, has to be considered pretty shifty.

This treaty is all about power distribution for politicians, not countries or their citizens.

adam

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Thats the first post that I've looked at and thought "that makes sense, he's calling it as most of the ordinary folk have seen it so far, and he's not trying to pull the urine out of another poster!"

I really want someone who supports voting "yes" to submit a tangible reason for doing so. GavinZac is trying to but the condescending nature of his posts get annoying after a while.

I plan to vote against the treaty. It actually has very little to do with the contents of the treaty.

Nice was voted against in a fair referendum here, and the vote was ignored. The EU constitution was voted against in Holland and France, and those votes have been ignored - the constitution repackaged as this treaty and kept away from referenda in every country but here. The politicians of Europe are not taking no for an answer. I think that attitude has to be beaten out of them.

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

I'm in favour of a federal Europe, a common defence force and any pan-European enterprise you care to mention

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For the record, me too, although I'd highlight the word defense. Chad isn't defense. And of course this treaty isn't about any of those things.

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

What made up my mind was this quote from Patricia Callan of the Small Firms Association: "The Lisbon Treaty will safeguard our low corporate tax regime, our attractiveness as a destination for foreign direct investment and our flexible labour market.".

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You liked the 1980s? Would be interesting to hear your alternatives to the above :rolleyes:

I will vote Yes as I could not find anything in the Treaty I disagreed with. I have mainly ignored the politicians efforts.

BTW I have no problem with the EU peace enforcing. The UN is a lame duck & we complain too much about the US. I would approve the EU going to Sudan without UN approval.

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Originally Posted by pete

I will vote Yes as I could not find anything in the Treaty I disagreed with.

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That's a very odd way of putting it. Did you find anything you agreed with, anything that will tangibly benefit you or your country?

Any chance of adding a poll to see which way people intend to vote? I know it's private but if people don't want to say then don't vote in it.

I think most people in this thread have already declared what way they will vote.

Not sure if this should be in th Lisbon Treaty thread but walking in this morning it became clear that both sides of the "argument" are treating the public with utter contempt.

Your choices are:

"Vote for Jobs" / "Vote for Ireland"

and

"People dies for your freedom" / "It will cost you"

These people are well funded and it is apparent that they certainly think that there are enough uninformed people out there to make a difference in this election.

Utterly feeble.

It comes back to one of my other ridiculous threads - we don't live in a democracy - if we did, there would be a much better way of avoiding this kind of intellectually moribund referendum

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Originally Posted by dahamsta

That's a very odd way of putting it. Did you find anything you agreed with, anything that will tangibly benefit you or your country?

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The EU needs changes for decision making & voting because there are 27 members now. I largely see the Treaty as an administrative device. The qualified majority voting changes seem realistic and fair. I am also happy that we keep control over tax policy. I can't remember what direct benefit the previous Treaties gave Ireland.

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Originally Posted by pete

The EU needs changes for decision making & voting because there are 27 members now. I largely see the Treaty as an administrative device. The qualified majority voting changes seem realistic and fair.

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The EU doesn't need change with regard to decision making. The current system used will protect Ireland's say. The majority voting system (and related voting rights) is weighed very heavily against Ireland/other small and new EU countries, and is very unfair.

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Originally Posted by mypost

The EU doesn't need change with regard to decision making. The current system used will protect Ireland's say. The majority voting system (and related voting rights) is weighed very heavily against Ireland/other small and new EU countries, and is very unfair.

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How is it very unfair? Why should a country as small as ours have anything near the same voting rights as Germany, France or Britain for example?

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Originally Posted by mypost

The EU doesn't need change with regard to decision making. The current system used will protect Ireland's say. The majority voting system (and related voting rights) is weighed very heavily against Ireland/other small and new EU countries, and is very unfair.

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Voting power is not weighted against Ireland or any other small countries. Ourselves, as well as the other small countries, have a greater say per person than the bigger countries.

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Originally Posted by holidaysong

Voting power is not weighted against Ireland or any other small countries. Ourselves, as well as the other small countries, have a greater say per person than the bigger countries.

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Whats wrong with all countries having an equal say irrespective of population

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

Whats wrong with all countries having an equal say irrespective of population

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The current system is undemocratic. It would allow say Cyprus to veto legislation that the other 26 countries representing hundreds of millions of people want passed.

The new system still ensures that smaller countries get more votes per head of population & it also ensures need a minimum percentage of countries to get votes passed which ensures big countries can't force through on their own.

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Originally Posted by pete

The current system is undemocratic. It would allow say Cyprus to veto legislation that the other 26 countries representing hundreds of millions of people want passed.

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So if it allows Cyprus to veto legislation, how is it undemocratic? :confused:

The proposed system is undemocratic. It requires merely majority voting. "If you're in the minority well, fk you". :mad:

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Originally Posted by pete

I largely see the Treaty as an administrative device. ... I can't remember what direct benefit the previous Treaties gave Ireland.

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I think that's a part of the problem with this treaty. A lot of the previous ones contained a big ticket item. Nice allowed the 12 new countries to join, Maastricht brought in the euro. Both issues you could hold an opinion on. From what I can tell, this treaty does little other than redistribute the voting weights in Europe so it's difficult to get excited about it.

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Originally Posted by mypost

So if it allows Cyprus to veto legislation, how is it undemocratic? :confused:

The proposed system is undemocratic. It requires merely majority voting. "If you're in the minority well, fk you". :mad:

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You may not be aware but the definition of democracy is basically majority rule. :rolleyes:

Vetos will still remain but just removed for some areas.

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Originally Posted by pete

You may not be aware but the definition of democracy is basically majority rule. :rolleyes:

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The definition of democracy is your voice gets heard. Only happening for 3 million people regarding this constitution. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by mypost

The definition of democracy is your voice gets heard. Only happening for 3 million people regarding this constitution. :rolleyes:

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Other countries have their own rules. Who are we to tell them they must have a Referedum?

:confused:

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Originally Posted by mypost

The proposed system is undemocratic. It requires merely majority voting. "If you're in the minority well, fk you". :mad:

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I asked google a question today

Define: Democracy

Here's what came up.

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[SIZE=-1]majority rule: the doctrine that the numerical majority of an organized group can make decisions binding on the whole group [/SIZE]

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:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by pete

Other countries have their own rules. Who are we to tell them they must have a Referedum?

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Under the original constitution, approximately half of the EU states were scheduled to hold referendums. Most never got the opportunity.

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Originally Posted by mypost

Under the original constitution, approximately half of the EU states were scheduled to hold referendums. Most never got the opportunity.

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Because how many countries voted no?

I was going to vote no up until about a week ago, informed myself a bit using this thread and also bits and pieces here and there.

Surprised to see the vote so close, i would have taught the ''Yes'' camp would have been much higher considering all the main political parties are pushing for this.

IMO anyway if anyone informed themselves to even the jist of the treaty they would see it's good for Ireland and Europe as a whole, so with that i'd conclude that anyone who's too lazy to inform themselves are also the crowd who are too lazy to register or even vote on the day, so i'd say at the ballot itself there will be much more pushing for a ''Yes''.

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Originally Posted by gilberto_eire

IMO anyway if anyone informed themselves to even the jist of the treaty they would see it's good for Ireland and Europe as a whole, so with that i'd conclude that anyone who's too lazy to inform themselves are also the crowd who are too lazy to register or even vote on the day, so i'd say at the ballot itself there will be much more pushing for a ''Yes''.

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People who haven't read the document are lazy? The actual document is both long and difficult - the clause "46) Articles 27 A to 27 E, on enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above." will give you a taste if you haven't tried it yourself. There's little to be gained for the average punter to actually read it. Instead, you've read a summary. Whose summary? Was their a bias to it?

Among the Yes camp will be those who unconditionally do whatever their political party tells them (a condition for which I enthusiastically endorse euthanasia), which strikes me as a fairly intellectually lazy group too. Truth is, the vast majority of people voting in this referendum will not have read the treaty. I'll warrant that over half of them won't have even read a summary.

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Originally Posted by SligoBrewer

Because how many countries voted no?

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How many other countries would have voted no? The Brits for starters....

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Originally Posted by gilberto eire

if anyone informed themselves to even the jist of the treaty they would see it's good for Ireland and Europe as a whole

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You fail to say why it's good for Ireland.

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Originally Posted by john83

"46) Articles 27 A to 27 E, on enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above."

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We have to pass this?? :confused:

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Originally Posted by mypost

We have to pass this?? :confused:

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We have to vote on it, yes. Most substantial pieces of legislation are pretty convoluted, amendments doubly so.

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Originally Posted by John83

The actual document is both long and difficult - the clause "46) Articles 27 A to 27 E, on enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above." will give you a taste if you haven't tried it yourself.

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If you read the consolidated text you'll find it much easier. Reading the edits to a document you haven't read is always going to be difficult.

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Originally Posted by John83

People who haven't read the document are lazy? The actual document is both long and difficult - the clause "46) Articles 27 A to 27 E, on enhanced cooperation, shall be replaced by Article 10 in accordance with point 22 above." will give you a taste if you haven't tried it yourself. There's little to be gained for the average punter to actually read it. Instead, you've read a summary. Whose summary? Was their a bias to it?

Among the Yes camp will be those who unconditionally do whatever their political party tells them (a condition for which I enthusiastically endorse euthanasia), which strikes me as a fairly intellectually lazy group too. Truth is, the vast majority of people voting in this referendum will not have read the treaty. I'll warrant that over half of them won't have even read a summary.

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I hardly meant i read the whole document itself:rolleyes:

I was referring to http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/index.html

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

If you read the consolidated text you'll find it much easier. Reading the edits to a document you haven't read is always going to be difficult.

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I actually have read it (them technically), though it's been a while. At any rate, the consolidated text has only been made available this month. I've been pretty ****ed off at that actually. I haven't had time to read it yet.

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Originally Posted by gilberto_eire

I hardly meant i read the whole document itself:rolleyes:

I was referring to http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/index.html

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Ah, yes, the Referendum commission. As much as I can't to read a summary by such an intellectual heavyweight as the Ombudsman ("I will be an ombudswoman"), I will actually read the damned thing myself first.

At any rate, well done on reading that much. Few enough will.

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Originally Posted by John83

I actually have read it (them technically), though it's been a while. At any rate, the consolidated text has only been made available this month. I've been pretty ****ed off at that actually. I haven't had time to read it yet.

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Cool,
I'll let you fill me in on what's in it so. I won't be at the game this Friday.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

Cool,
I'll let you fill me in on what's in it so. I won't be at the game this Friday.

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I'm unlikely to read it by Friday, John. Maybe the Treaty on European Union, but definitely not the other one.

EDIT: Will/won't. So much room for confusion. :)

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Originally Posted by gilberto_eire

I was referring to http://www.lisbontreaty2008.ie/index.html

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The Government appointed commission? Since Nice 1, the remite of the supposed independent information released to the public is severly restricted.