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I hope Stan sends Gibson on tonight for a run out (after hearing from FIFA - don't want us getting points deducted!) and it's the end of this matter. Worthington can then concentrate on getting N Iron to Switzerland/Austria next year, whilst Gibson blossoms into the greatest player since Zidane!!!
Gibson has been representing the Republic in competitive international underage tournaments for a few years now, without objection. His transition from underage to 'B' international to senior has been smooth, and unsullied by controversy or interference - until now.
The IFA, and Worthington in particular, have stirred the issue, but it seems significant to me that through all this debate, we have ammassed nothing but speculation and (biased) opinion. If someone from the Northern side can present and quote official FIFA regulations concerning citizenship that expressly deny Gibson from playing for Ireland, then the argument may well be valid.
In an earlier post, I quoted a line from the good Friday Agreement which, as I interpret it, guarantees joint citizenship for Irish/Northern Irish residents. Is citizenship not the issue?
Gibson has played in U-17 tournaments for Ireland, and FIFA have remained laissez-faire. Darron Gibson is a current Republic of Ireland international. Unless somebody with a good legal brain can prove otherwise, I will continue to think of him as such.
EalingGreen I've been honestly trying to see your side of the argument and I am in fact sympathetic to the problem where some of the players born in your province wish to play for the Republic but I must state that looking at some of the postings on the subject you and most of your mates on ourweecountry.com are seriously the most stubborn, deluded and unreasonable bunch of posters I have ever had the misfortune to come across.
You seem to state that being born in a place is the defining trait of one's nationality yet you fail to mention:
1. There is no country called Northern Ireland in the first place.
2. Being born in a place is simply one aspect of many that determine nationality and is often not the most important.
3. Every team in world football (including your own) and in sports in general is littered with people that represent countries they were not born within the boundaries of.
A quote I like from you is that 'personal political convictions should not be a consideration when deciding someones nationality'. So what should be then? Financial gain? Career enchancement? Place were you were born even if you never lived there for any length of time? C'mon get real ffs.
You also annoyingly bring up the case of the Qatar football team and it's Brazilian imports on an increasingly regular basis yet this has no relevance whatsoever in anyone's eyes in the current universe which we inhabit to Gibson's case. What has this to do with Darron Gibson?
I also see the thread on ourweecountry.com addressing the same issue has degenerated into slating a perfectly reasonable poster who had some decent facts just because he didn't agree with some of the bigots. Unreal.
Take my advice expand your horizons and stop associating with the same ignorant, stubborn and small minded brigade that like to frequent that other forum. Then you might actually start to understand the concepts logic, freewill, compromise and reason.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
And in the same post you say this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
And in another post.....Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
OK, last post. I'm driving myself up the wall.
From espn, june 21; 'A number of players were able to play for a country as long as they lived there but their citizenship ended if they moved away from that country,' FIFA spokesman Andreas Herren said.
'This new ruling, in effect, protects the players. If a good young player was to leave a small club in one country for a big club in another country and lost his right of citizenship, he would also jeopardise his international career.
'All any country has to do is grant that player full unconditional citizenship and he is eligible to play for that country whether he lives there or not.'
Good Friday Agreement; "The birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."
I rest my case.
Instead of being trying to be all PC about it read the ourweecountry thread and see if you come to the same inclusion. It's not the same at all. I never stated all or even most NI fans fall into this category or even all posters on ourweecounrty.com. But a large proportion of the latter undoubtedly do.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
EalingGreen is being totally unreasonable on this subject and that's why I'm pulling him up. We disagree on many subjects and he doesn't get slated.
can someone call up a favour in FIFA and get he/she to sign up on here and post what FIFA stipulates on this matter.
Credit to EalingGreen though, he can manipulate any post he wants, which he does quite well, but what exactly are they waiting for from FIFA? I mean he has represented Ireland for many years and is in our senior team, if anything were to change it would have happened by now. Which leads me to my next point, if gibson had faded into the abyss and was "useless", yet wanted to play for ireland and had done at underage, EG wouldn't be here at all.
Ah well, optimism can be blind, but having optimism can make you beleive you might see again.
This FIFA quote is in reference to 2 players who were given partial citizenship by the Israeli gov which would have ended should the 2 players leave the country. FIFA told them in no uncertain terms to feck off with the partial citizenship and give the players full citizenship rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by Supreme feet
FIFA do not have a one size rule fits all. They take each situation individually and apply the criteria usually to support the player.
Did they really say that? I never knew that the irish had spread there colloquial terms that far afield, and mores the point that it was so popular!Quote:
FIFA told them in no uncertain terms to feck off with the partial citizenship and give the players full citizenship rights.
Well if the aim is to support the player, then Gibson will be fine.
Ealing Green you dontget many compliments on here but in fairness your post is well worded and I dont believe you or Steve Bruce and the rest of the Northern lads who come on here are any more prejudiced than the rest of us.
However the lad wants to play for Ireland and imo should be allowed to.
He doesn't get any insults either, but he does get fair-minded discussion. There have been very few negative comments about him, but plenty about his post, which is fair enough its a forum for discussion after all! :)Quote:
Ealing Green you dontget many compliments on here but in fairness your post is well worded and I dont believe you or Steve Bruce and the rest of the Northern lads who come on here are any more prejudiced than the rest of us.
However the lad wants to play for Ireland and imo should be allowed to.
I think what you might be refering to is the fact that no matter what anyone says he keeps coming back with the same rhetoric, which to me sometimes comes across a bit desperate and clutching at straws, but im not insulting him or his integrity!
one word,Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Father Ted.
thats two?!Quote:
one word,
Father Ted.
you don't say
To continue the EG love in.
Maybe it's because I'm a fellow Ulsterman but I generally dont disagree with EG any more than other posters. I do have to ask though where he gets the time for such monumental posts!
The worry I have around the DG situation is this: A number of countries would love to 'buy' an international team, esp teams in the Middle East as we have seen in Athletics. We cannot allow Qatar to buy a team of Brazilians. Now the thing that has stopped them is that generally players playing for you have to have been born in your territory (or parents/grandparents). The move to a citizenship focus is dangerous. Any country can create any rule regarding citizenship. The Israeli example being referred to was thrown out because the citizenship only applied as long as the people lived in the country. However if you were Qatar you could get aroudn this by giving permanent citizenship to any Brazilian who has played professional football. The prosepct of international teams being bought like this depresses me more than any other in football.
Into this comes the DG situation. The only reason DG is eligible for us is becasue of the fact we have given citizenship to all people born in NI. ( I think this is admirable by the way). The problem for FIFA is how do they distinguish between this and Qatar wanting to give citizenship to BRazilian footballers. I see 3 possible solutions:
You can only play people not born in the territory if their citizenship is agreed with the country the person is born in (The UK has agreed to the rule but I would guess Brazil would not)
You can only play if the rule giving you citizenship is applied to all people in the other association. (I would guess Qatar dont want to give citizenship to all Brazilians)
Or FIFA hold a list of sepcial cases, the onyl ones I can think off are NI/ROI, Israel and Jordan(?) and possibly for Croats born in Serbia etc.
If the choice is between a rule saying you must be born in the territory or one saying any country can give citizenship to anyone else I'd go for the former and sympathise with Gibson etc.
There is a Palestinian team as recognized by FIFA. Similar cr@p to the north-its not a real country so I presume the rules are different.
in fairness the lads from the north who want to represent us have their rights enshrined in a few international treaties , they have a far more legal basis to be recognised than a couple of brazilian chancers looking for a few quid. As many lads from up there have represented us then i see no reason why uefa or fifa will ever rock the boat on the issue, it will most likely be left to the individual to decide.
There is no real problem there because FIFA sniffed out a stroke being pulled and put a full stop to that by requiring at least 2 years residency.Quote:
The problem for FIFA is how do they distinguish between this and Qatar wanting to give citizenship to BRazilian footballers. I see 3 possible solutions:
FIFA appear to examine different arbitration issues on an individual basis.
All changes in national declaration have to be first reviewed by a FIFA committee where everything is checked out.
Generally there is no problem with a country that gives full citizen rights to citizens that are born and grow up in another football federation area.
FIFA recognises the rights of Irish citizens born in NI, Croats born in Serbia and Bosnians born in Croatia et.c. to declare for their country without having lived there.
There would be a storm of discontent all over the FIFA world if they messed around with that.
Having basically stated my opinion on this matter, I have neither the time or inclination to restate it - people must accept it or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Louth4sam
However, on a point of information, FIFA's Regs apply equally to all Members, unless an exception/exemption is specified. One such example is the status of the four British Associations:
Article 10 Admission
1 Any Association which is responsible for organising and supervising football in its country may become a Member of FIFA. In this context, the expression “country" shall refer to an independent state recognised by the international community. Subject to par. 5 and par. 6 below, only one Association shall be recognised in each country.
5 Each of the four British Associations is recognised as a separate Member of FIFA.
6 An Association in a region which has not yet gained independence may, with the authorisation of the Association in the country on which it is dependent, also apply for admission to FIFA
Regarding international player eligibility, there is NO exception/exemption specified for Irish players (either Association), therefore Gibson must satisfy FIFA that his eligibility for the ROI derives from the existing Regs.
And as regards these, the FAI is (presumably) depending on the following:
VII. ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR ASSOCIATION TEAMS
Article 15 Principle
1 Any person holding the nationality of a country is eligible to play for
the representative teams of the Association of that country. The
Executive Committee shall decide on the conditions of eligibility
for any Player who has not played international football in accordance
with par. 2 below, and either acquires a new nationality or is
eligible to play for the teams of more than one Association due to
his nationality.
2 With the exception of the conditions specified in par. 3 and 4 below,
any Player who has already represented one Association in a match
(either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category or
any type of football may not play an international match for a representative
team of another Association.
3 If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new
nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several Associations’
teams due to nationality, he may, up to his 21st birthday, request
to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international
matches to the Association of another country of which he
holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:
(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) at “A” international
level for his current Association, and if at the time of his
first full or partial appearance in an international match in an
official competition for his current Association, he already had
the nationality of the Association’s team for which he wishes to
play.
(b) He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition
in which he has already played for his previous Association.
A player may exercise this right only once.
Whereas, the IFA (presumably) considers that the above definition is now (since the Qatari/Brazilian case) required to be augmented by the following requirement:
ANNEX 2
ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR ASSOCIATION TEAMS FOR PLAYERS WHOSE
NATIONALITY ENTITLES THEM TO REPRESENT MORE THAN ONE ASSOCIATION
Article 1 Conditions
1. A player who, under the terms of Art. 15 of the Regulations Governing
the Application of the FIFA Statutes, is eligible to represent more
than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an
international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to
having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following
conditions:
a) he was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
b ) his biological mother or biological father was born on the territory
of the relevant Association;
c) his grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the
relevant Association;
d) he has lived on the territory of the relevant Association for at least
two years without interruption.
Therefore, if you go solely by Paragraph 1 of Article XV, then Gibson is OK to play for the ROI.
However, if the Article 1 Conditions of Annex 2 also need to be applied, then Gibson is ineligible.
And I have no doubt that when FIFA framed Annex 2 (in response to the Qatari/Brazilian business), that they never even considered that Irish Nationality might constitute a "grey area".
Therefore, I feel they require to make a policy decision as to whether people in Gibson's situation are subject to Annex 2, just like every other player, or whether his situation is exceptional, either by inference from or interpretation of the existing regs, or following the granting of a specific exemption/exception.
And it is also my guess that this policy decision is not an easy one, otherwise they would have nailed it down one way or another long before now.
Either that or they are not particularly keen to get involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
"And it is also my guess that this policy decision is not an easy one, otherwise they would have nailed it down one way or another long before now."
They well not be particularly keen, but they have no choice in the matter, since FIFA is the only body which can adjudicate between two of its Membership Associations when they are in dispute over a matter such as this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon 7
And they are doubtless aware that if the FAI goes ahead and includes Gibson in a e.g. a Euro Qualifier and their opponents consider that they (ROI) may have fielded an ineligible player, then those opponents will surely appeal and FIFA will have to decide before it happens again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
On that famous ANNEX 2
you leave out the important bit from the FIFA conference, the annex is not for players already covered by article 15.3
http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/federa...sid=92699.html
And it is not used against players who fall under 15.3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
+1
This thread should have stopped after 3 pages max. Its the same points over and over and over...
He can't play for anyone else now, can we close off this thread now?
Think we should now that the matter has reached a satisfactory conclusion.:)
I see all guests are blocked from viewing ourweecountry.com today. They must be fuming after Gibson played last night and have banned outsiders.
Could have been some wum gloating over Darron.
Reminds me of that Marine played by Jack Nicholson shouting to some poncy lawyer,
'You want the truth - you can't handle the truth'.
Well said, whenever I see Ealing Green at the top of a post I don't bother reading it any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
wow god forbid anyone have a different opinion to you on a forum!!!!:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy
if you dont like it dont read it. but dont try speak for anyone but yourself.
Well seeing as Darron made his debut for us last night it's a non issue and I will do as others have suggested and close the thread
I see the Gibson thread has been locked on the logic that he's played for us now and so that must be OK.
This is not a very powerful argument. The system seems to be self certifying with FIFA having the ability to retrospectively punish. It's a bit like filling in a tax return you cant say later well that's what my form said so it must be true.
Anyway thougth it might be good to have a thread for Gibson the player, thought he looked OK last night just worried about what his career over the next 12-24 months will look like, dont see him getting many matches at Old Trafford so possibly a loan move to e.g Birmingham
cavan_man, i think FIFA are being quite on the matter, because they were waiting to see if the IFAs bluff would be called. Now that he has played for us, the IFA might just leave it, and hence no sore head for FIFA. And its all cleared up. On the other hand you could be right.....but are the IFA that petty, probably.Quote:
This is not a very powerful argument. The system seems to be self certifying with FIFA having the ability to retrospectively punish. It's a bit like filling in a tax return you cant say later well that's what my form said so it must be true.
Dont let this start the, OMG gibson is a revelation, all that sensationalism. A decent prospect that is all for now.Quote:
Anyway thougth it might be good to have a thread for Gibson the player, thought he looked OK last night just worried about what his career over the next 12-24 months will look like, dont see him getting many matches at Old Trafford so possibly a loan move to e.g Birmingham
I would chew both my own legs off if FIFA were ever to rule against Gibson playing for ROI. It is nonsense to think that this would ever be the case no matter what some of the bitter shower up North think or say.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Jaysus YI....are you a closet Cannibal.....you will "eat your own head " in another thread!:D............is the diet getting to you...?Quote:
Originally Posted by youngirish
If FIFA were going to do something they would have done it by now. He's been in ROI youth teams for years and neither he nor the FAI made any bones about the fact that he was going to get a senior cap sooner rather than later.
I think he's got lots of potential but obviously it's early days for him. Good too that he's a central midfielder as since Keane and Holland retired we've been a bit short in the middle of the park. He seems confident, assured on the ball and has a good shot on him and unlike some of our other midfielders he's got a bit of physical presence about him too. He's a big lad. Not the quickest I'd say but not slow either.
Need him to develop now and gain experience.
agree Maroon - will be shocked if FIFA tried to prevent Gibson playing for ROI - mr worthington needs to forget about it and move on - he is fighting a lost cause imo
Will all this resurface if/when Marc Wilson, Rory Harkin, or any other player who's changed allegiance, gets called into the senior squad?
i dont see why it was locked other than the fact there seems to be a clique on here who seem to want to stifle any debate. if people dont want to debate it anymore why do they read it?
There is nothing left to debate, he can't play for the North anymore, so why keep it open?Quote:
Originally Posted by Billsthoughts