Shannon Airport Discussion

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

As much as anyone else deserves one. I can't counter the stats you haven't presented for Cork being home to "more international businesses" but I could perhaps counter that Shannon has as large or even a larger hinterland.

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Shannon does not have a larger hinterland in terms of population as Cork Airport does. Nearly 500,000 in Cork County alone not including most of Kerry, large parts of Tipperary and Waterford where Cork Airport is more easily accessible than Shannon. All of Clare, Limerick, North Tipp would only account for a pop of around 350,000 add in Galway and it gets to 575,000 still less than Cork Airports hinterland.

In terms of companies unfortunately Limerick/Shannon region has one major multi national dominating employment and that is Dell. Cork fortunately has a broader spread with more companies therefore more business travel.

So in terms of air transport in and out of the South of the country Cork ticks more boxes for airlines wanting to do business, it also has not put all of its eggs in one basket (eg Ryan air sweet heart deals ****ing off the competition).

Also Shannon has been seen by other regions as having had its own way for far too long in terms of unfair advantages over other regions eg the Shannon Free Duty zone and the Shannon stop over so the plight of Shannon Airport is never going to get that much sympathy from other regions.

Maybe Cork is next, I don't know but it has survived far worse.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Maybe you'd like to outline the factors keeping them in Cork that don't exist in Shannon? Aside from ease of access for Corkonians.
...for now Pete. I won't say I told you so when Corks turn comes ...and it's coming.

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Population, Tourism, Business Travel, etc. There is a big difference between the two regions on these terms. Them is just the facts.
As for Cork is next ..... we'll just wait and see.

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Originally Posted by rebs23

Population, Tourism, Business Travel, etc. There is a big difference between the two regions on these terms. Them is just the facts.
As for Cork is next ..... we'll just wait and see.

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Rebs -while I accept neither your sums nor "facts" -my question, in so far as it was one, was somewhat rhetorical as I don't see this as a Cork VERSUS Shannon issue. I'm merely saying they will walk out on Cork for the same reasons they've dumped on Shannon. I don't believe they should be doing either.

Since I last posted here a close relative of mine, a highly skilled craftsman -not someone in a "pleb job" on a Dell production line or similar (no disrespect intended) has told me they've basically been put on protective notice as two of his employers major contracts in the tourism sector have been cancelled (one was actually under way!!) due to the Heathrow flights being taken from Shannon. I report this at all just by way of example that this is REAL up here. It's happening ...it's not scaremongering or hysterics.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Rebs -while I accept neither your sums nor "facts" -my question, in so far as it was one, was somewhat rhetorical as I don't see this as a Cork VERSUS Shannon issue. I'm merely saying they will walk out on Cork for the same reasons they've dumped on Shannon. I don't believe they should be doing either.

Since I last posted here a close relative of mine, a highly skilled craftsman -not someone in a "pleb job" on a Dell production line or similar (no disrespect intended) has told me they've basically been put on protective notice as two of his employers major contracts in the tourism sector have been cancelled (one was actually under way!!) due to the Heathrow flights being taken from Shannon. I report this at all just by way of example that this is REAL up here. It's happening ...it's not scaremongering or hysterics.

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But yet the ACTUAL figures I posted a few pages back show that the Aer Lingus flights don't bring in that many tourists (approx 20 on each flight).

Is it possible this is an easy scapegoat when laying off people rather than the truth, which is probably more to do with Ireland's uncompetiveness in the tourist sector in the face of rising prices and a very strong currency?

I can throw anecdotes back about lots of Americans I know not coming back to Ireland because its horrendously expensive for them these days.

You have basically ignored all the facts posted previously about Cork being a Aer Lingus hub which reduces their costs per seat and posted yet another anecdote in response.

The bottom line is that Aer Lingus are adding destinations out of Cork yet you are still spinning groundless stories about them being next!

All this debate about the economy of Shannon is really a separate topic.

Aer Lingus is a private company so has a duty to act in its shareholders best interests. They are no longer a semi-state company. Some local people may not like this but a majority of people voted for FF in the recent General Election so clearly it was not an important enough issue for them to change their votes.

As posted above the facts just don't back up the importance of a Heathrow link as clearly not enough passengers dependent on it. London is served by numerous other links & Gatwick has a lot of connections. I also see Ryanair is starting flights to Dublin which offers other options, you also have the possibility of CityJet from Paris offering even more options than Dublin.

If someone can't a flight via Gatwick, Dublin or Paris where exactly are they flying from? :confused:

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

But yet the ACTUAL figures I posted a few pages back show that the Aer Lingus flights don't bring in that many tourists (approx 20 on each flight).

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...still comes to about 20,000 tourists a year traveling through Shannon.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Is it possible this is an easy scapegoat when laying off people rather than the truth, which is probably more to do with Ireland's uncompetiveness in the tourist sector in the face of rising prices and a very strong currency?

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Absolutely there's an element of that. BUT the instances I refererred to aren't multi-nationals in the manufacturing sector that are going to move on anyway because that's just what they do ...these are high end/ high spend, long established tourist locations who's confidence is seriously shaken because of the removal of the Heathrow slots. They may well be making a knee jerk reaction but this is what's happening.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I can throw anecdotes back about lots of Americans I know not coming back to Ireland because its horrendously expensive for them these days!

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...and I'd likely agree with them. As I said in an earlier post I think they product offered to any tourist anywhere in Ireland is often shoddy and overpriced. Deserves a thread of it's own.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

You have basically ignored all the facts posted previously about Cork being a Aer Lingus hub which reduces their costs per seat and posted yet another anecdote in response.

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Yet another anecdote?:confused: Two relevant and related points ORA. Just two. The first from an interview with the american golf tourist who'd think twice about coming here if he can't get in through Shannon and the second concerning a local working in a support industry who's job is under threat exactly because that kind of tourist is being put off.
Nor have I ignored the facts about Cork being an Aer Lingus hub. As I've said I don't see this as either or.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

The bottom line is that Aer Lingus are adding destinations out of Cork yet you are still spinning groundless stories about them being next!

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Groundless stories? Where are you getting this stuff? I ventured an opinion and never claimed it to be more. Following the logic that has led Aer Lingus to up stumps from Shannon -they will go from Cork and anywhere else thereafter when they find a more lucrative route to transfer the slots to. As some keep reminding me ...to do otherwise is to default their shareholders. :rolleyes:

I see Shannon is to lose its weekly winter link to Minsk............its just one blow after another.....

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Originally Posted by pete

All this debate about the economy of Shannon is really a separate topic.

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In fairness the two are interlinked in a way and I suspect a lot of companies may be using the Shannon Heathrow line as an excuse to take the heat off them in terms of upcoming job losses and in one paticular company using it as an excuse to get the unions off their back.
I work a lot in the Mid West (at least 1 or 2 days a week) and it is a region that is facing a lot of problems in terms of the mix of industry present (too reliant on It manufacturing type industry), ending of stopover, etc, etc.
Tough times ahead but very little to do with the Shannon Heathrow link.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I see Shannon is to lose its weekly winter link to Minsk............its just one blow after another.....

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Its a blow for the children of Belarus that come over to Ireland on that flight, you smart arse.

I still don't understand what destinations are gone with the Heathrow flights? Please someone list a few of them...?

:confused:

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Originally Posted by Ceirtlis

Its a blow for the children of Belarus that come over to Ireland on that flight, you smart arse.

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Won't somebody please think of the children......

Sure it makes their journey a bit more difficult but the rest of the country manages to host Chernobyl kids without a direct link to Belarus.

What a waste of cabinet time discussing the Shannon thing all day.

Merrion Rd QBC discussion tomorrow?

Bet O'Dea is showing his true gombeen-ism as I speak.

FF muppets.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Merrion Rd QBC discussion tomorrow?

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The problem with that bus lane is that there's no room for a bus to overtake cyclists so it ends up moving as the speed of the slowest bike it comes up behind.

I was talking to an international businessman and a group of wealthy American tourists who say that they are seriously considering moving their business to the other side of Donnybrook over the issue.

My local councilor is threatening to resign over this neglect of the south east of the city but I think that anyone who voted for the FF/PD/GP axis can have no cause for complaint. The voters need to realise that the only way this country will make progress is by petty infighting between the regions and only voting on the basis of local issues.

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Originally Posted by Student Mullet

I was talking to an international businessman and a group of wealthy American tourists who say that they are seriously considering moving their business to the other side of Donnybrook over the issue.

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They are clearly trying to make the QBC an excuse for outsourcing those jobs to Tallaght. Could they not use the Stillorgan QBC?

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Originally Posted by pete

As posted above the facts just don't back up the importance of a Heathrow link as clearly not enough passengers dependent on it. London is served by numerous other links & Gatwick has a lot of connections. I also see Ryanair is starting flights to Dublin which offers other options, you also have the possibility of CityJet from Paris offering even more options than Dublin.

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I don't understand the major fuss over it all. If passengers want to go to London from Shannon, they can go from Shannon to Stansted with Ryanair with no trouble. :confused: Heathrow's only a cab/tube fare away.

On the other hand, the government's stance is staggering. "We can't intervene" they cry. Well, they could when Ryanair threatened to take over the airline. :rolleyes:

In reality, none of them, nor the public at large care very much about things in this country outside Dublin. If Aer Lingus threatened to pull out of Dublin, the clamour for the government to intervene would mean, that they would have to act, commercial decision or not.

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Originally Posted by mypost

In reality, none of them, nor the public at large care very much about things in this country outside Dublin.

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And that is something we can all agree on. An unfortunate fact of life.

I have just started reading thsi and cant believe how some people on here are so smarmy about this. The most important factor here is the buisiness Factor for the whole west coast from North Kerry to Mayo and not just the Shannon region as the FF Spin Doctors are trying to isolate it too.

Anyone working for any factory in that region dependent on bringing in Clients/Customers from around the world will feel this in the long term whether it be new projects or their own jobs being withdrawn.

The whole transferring of the slots to Belfast had to include Government participation and Bertie obviously thought that his massive reputation as a great political leader would be enhanced by this but he seemed to think the people of the west and midwest would just rollover and die.

We are spending close on €1 billion euro this year on projects in the north and that money is coming out of all of our pockets.

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Originally Posted by gufct

Anyone working for any factory in that region dependent on bringing in Clients/Customers from around the world will feel this in the long term whether it be new projects or their own jobs being withdrawn.

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Please give just one example of route that customers/clients cannot travel to Shannon from?

:rolleyes:

heres one route pete heathrow :rolleyes: . There are over 50 Routes 2 of the top of my head are shangai and hong kong that will no longer be able to get connecting flights to Shannon directly without having to get an extra flight or train or bus connection and if you have clients that you are selling your product or service too what do you tell them get a bus to stansted,gatwick or god forbid Luton.

Aer Lingus have carte blanche to pull all their routes out of any airport including Belfast now and the government surely cant make any intervention.

If the clients from Hong Kong and Shanghai, etc, really want to go to Shannon, they can go via Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt, etc, etc. They will have to get a connecting flight anyway, so if not Heathrow, there are other options. If they don't want to do that, then they aren't very committed to investing in the Western region, are they??

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Originally Posted by gufct

I have just started reading thsi and cant believe how some people on here are so smarmy about this. The most important factor here is the buisiness Factor for the whole west coast from North Kerry to Mayo and not just the Shannon region as the FF Spin Doctors are trying to isolate it too.

Anyone working for any factory in that region dependent on bringing in Clients/Customers from around the world will feel this in the long term whether it be new projects or their own jobs being withdrawn.

The whole transferring of the slots to Belfast had to include Government participation and Bertie obviously thought that his massive reputation as a great political leader would be enhanced by this but he seemed to think the people of the west and midwest would just rollover and die.

We are spending close on €1 billion euro this year on projects in the north and that money is coming out of all of our pockets.

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Doesn't even merit a response.

Most, if not all of what you have said has been disproved earlier in the thread.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Doesn't even merit a response.

Most, if not all of what you have said has been disproved earlier in the thread.

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He he hee.

disproved by who steve?

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Originally Posted by gufct

disproved by who steve?

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Who is Steve?

A starter for ten is your assertion that the decision to move the slots to Belfast was as a result of government intervention.

Either substantiate this or admit you are talking out of your hat.

The Government have denied this and it would run contrary to any generally accepted corporate governance rules that apply to a private, listed company.

Once you've addressed that, we can move on to pulling the rest of your post to pieces.

Bertie Ahern puts more into the peace dividend than he does in actually running the country and if you believe the waffle that the first he knew of this was the friday before it was announced then im sure you believe all the rest of the bull **** since from his highly paid advisors.

The government totally underestimated the reaction to this and its plain to see that Bertie has gone into hiding since and I wouldnt like to be him when he sets foot in any of the affected areas not "The Shannon Region" anytime in the next year. This debate will not go away despite what our friends in Dublin think.

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Originally Posted by gufct

heres one route pete heathrow :rolleyes: . There are over 50 Routes 2 of the top of my head are shangai and hong kong that will no longer be able to get connecting flights to Shannon directly.

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Hong Kong can be accessed via Gatwick. I'll give you Shanghai although could go via HK & daily traffic would be minimal.

Shannon should pull out all the stops to get Cityjet Paris CDG route. Cityjet are owned by Air France which will appeal to Business Travellers (no collecting bags like Aer Lingus passengers in Heathrow) & its 2nd busiest airport in Europe. BTW you can fly direct to Shanghai too.

If you need to travel to South America can already do it via Madrid or the USA.

BTW Shannon Airport is run by local authority so why can't they negotiate with new airlines themselves? :confused:

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Originally Posted by gufct

Bertie Ahern puts more into the peace dividend than he does in actually running the country and if you believe the waffle that the first he knew of this was the friday before it was announced then im sure you believe all the rest of the bull **** since from his highly paid advisors.

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Ooooh somebody is bitter about the peace process.....

You clearly think us Northerners are scratching around in our rags begging for Heathrow flights. You clearly are unaware that Belfast already has has 8 BMI flights a day to Heathrow. And probably another 30 to other London area airports. Therefore its a bit more competition for BMI but nothing more. The other European flights are much more attractive.

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Originally Posted by gufct

The government totally underestimated the reaction to this and its plain to see that Bertie has gone into hiding since and I wouldnt like to be him when he sets foot in any of the affected areas not "The Shannon Region" anytime in the next year. This debate will not go away despite what our friends in Dublin think.

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Bertie was on holiday. God help him that he chose to stay on holiday when a privatised airline discontinued a route......

Affected areas? Do Aer Lingus fly in the cure for foot and mouth?

Back up your assertions that the Aer Lingus flights to Shannon will have a material economic impact on the region or leave the discussion.

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Originally Posted by pete

BTW Shannon Airport is run by local authority so why can't they negotiate with new airlines themselves? :confused:

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Its run by the Dublin Airport Authority (formerly Aer Rianta) and is state owned

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Its run by the Dublin Airport Authority (formerly Aer Rianta) and is state owned

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But I believe they Managed locally for day to day activities.

Aer Lingus have rejected Ryanairs request for an EGM. They believe Ryanair are attempting to circumvent the competition authoritys ruling.

Meanwhile Enda Kenny nailed his colours to mast in an unequivocal pro-Shannon statement. He was visiting the area and pointed out that the stated strategic interests the government said they held a share to protect were Shannon, Cork and Dublin. Fine words from an opposition leader of course.

Could make for an interesting time if, as expected, Ryanair head for the high court and get their EGM which puts the government back on the hook Aer Lingus are trying to lift them off. Then the Government are again faced with having to vote with Aer Lingus board (effectively against Shannon).

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

Meanwhile Enda Kenny nailed his colours to mast in an unequivocal pro-Shannon statement. He was visiting the area and pointed out that the stated strategic interests the government said they held a share to protect were Shannon, Cork and Dublin. Fine words from an opposition leader of course.

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It'll be more interesting to see how 2 Quota's O'Dea votes on the opposition motions that'll surely come. Or more tellingly when he tows the FF line and votes against intervention what effect it will have on his votes. That'll be the time the people of the region can give their true opinion on the debacle to the likes of Killeen, O'Dea, Power et al. But will they?*

*I think we already know the answer - they'll forget the strategic interest, because he was once nice to their granny and give him the number 1.

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Originally Posted by Macy

It'll be more interesting to see how 2 Quota's O'Dea votes on the opposition motions that'll surely come. Or more tellingly when he tows the FF line and votes against intervention what effect it will have on his votes. That'll be the time the people of the region can give their true opinion on the debacle to the likes of Killeen, O'Dea, Power et al. But will they?*

*I think we already know the answer - they'll forget the strategic interest, because he was once nice to their granny and give him the number 1.

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That's it in a nutshell. Niall Collins -who only got elected for the first time a few months back for FF in Limerick West was on Newstalk this morning giving loads about the effect on the region and then didn't even have to be pressed to admit that he won't vote against the government if it comes to it because he'll lose his precious whip and will be rendered an "ineffective" representative. His logic was FF through and through.

I woke up this morning and it was like Groundhog Day, this issue is still being given airtime (or at least it appeared to still be the main item on Newstalk).

On the basis that re-nationalisation of either the old Aer Rianta airports or Aer Lingus is not on anyone sane's agenda (regardless of whether its the right thing to do I think we can all agree its unlikely to happen) then the story is pretty much finished.

Interestingly, SAA are dangling all sorts of incentives to carriers willing to oeprate the route such as co-marketing budget and heavily reduced landing fees. This is similar to what they already provide to Ryanair.

Maybe if these had been offered to Aer Lingus earlier the whole mess could've been avoided?

Latest news...

* Aer Lingus tell civil servants about future plans to leave Shannon.
* Civil Servant waits 6 weeks before telling the Minister or SAA
* DAA aware of Shannon pull out but don't tell the SAA
* Ryanair report Aer Lingus for releasing commercially sensitive information breaking Stock Exchange Rules
* SAA Chairman resigns (says was because DAA not sharing information)

Aer Lingus say will make average 75 pounds profit in Belfast or 15% of turnover. Flying to 8 other routes aside from Heathrow. It is fairly obvious Aer Lingus looking to expand from their reliance of Republic of Ireland hubs which is good strategic decision.

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Originally Posted by pete

* Aer Lingus tell civil servants about future plans to leave Shannon.
* Civil Servant waits 6 weeks before telling the Minister or SAA

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More like...

• Aer Lingus tell civil servants about future plans to leave Shannon.
• Civil Servants tell Dempsey and Bertie
• Dempsey and Bertie say "jesus, I didn't hear that!"
• Civil Servants therefore don't put it in writing
• News breaks that Aer Lingus told Civil Servants
• Dempsey and Bertie say, "we never knew that - have a look at the documents if you don't believe us"
• Bertie then sticks up for his Civil Servant (as he'd played the game perfectly).

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Originally Posted by pete

Latest news...

* Aer Lingus tell civil servants about future plans to leave Shannon.

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The letter was to the Minister. From working in the civil service, there is absolutely NO WAY the minister's office did not receive that letter.

Person who called Aer Lingus would be classed as top ranking civil servant. (i.e his next promotion would be on the basis of government appointment only)

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Originally Posted by Macy

More like...

• Aer Lingus tell civil servants about future plans to leave Shannon.
• Civil Servants tell Dempsey and Bertie
• Dempsey and Bertie say "jesus, I didn't hear that!"
• Civil Servants therefore don't put it in writing
• News breaks that Aer Lingus told Civil Servants
• Dempsey and Bertie say, "we never knew that - have a look at the documents if you don't believe us"
• Bertie then sticks up for his Civil Servant (as he'd played the game perfectly).

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Possibly.

I did not think of it until Ryanair lodged the complaint but Aer Lingus admitting they basically told one shareholder about future Commerical plans & not the others looks like a serious breach of the rules. Fran Rooney did something similar at Baltimore (conference call with brokers) which started his demise & ultimate sacking.

RTE News

Yawn.

So what if he knew. Was it supposed to go like this:
Civil servant tells Bertie AL are pulling the Shannon-Heathrow route. Bertie says "murders and gang-related crimes are going through the roof, the health system seems to have an inverse relationship as the more money we put in it the worse it gets, poor planning and low education spending is creating immigrant ghettos, the bubble in the housing market that has kept my party rich, and in Government [in that order] has just burst, but I'll clear the desk and focus all my attention on 4 flights a day to an airport in the middle of nowhere......"

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Yawn.

So what if he knew. Was it supposed to go like this:
Civil servant tells Bertie AL are pulling the Shannon-Heathrow route. Bertie says "murders and gang-related crimes are going through the roof, the health system seems to have an inverse relationship as the more money we put in it the worse it gets, poor planning and low education spending is creating immigrant ghettos, the bubble in the housing market that has kept my party rich, and in Government [in that order] has just burst, but I'll clear the desk and focus all my attention on 4 flights a day to an airport in the middle of nowhere......"

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No, its supposed to go like this

*They tell the relevent minister
*He deals with it
*He does not claim he hasn't seen letter

The Aer Lingus thing is a tough one as they'll (rightly IMO) claim they were telling the regulators rather than the shareholder

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Bertie says "murders and gang-related crimes are going through the roof, the health system seems to have an inverse relationship as the more money we put in it the worse it gets, poor planning and low education spending is creating immigrant ghettos, the bubble in the housing market that has kept my party rich, and in Government [in that order] has just burst,

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If only this part was true!

Goes back to the whole point of keeping the shareholding in the first place. Also serious questions on the non appointment of board members by the Government (still), apparently (conveniently) when votes were taking place to remove executive powers from the board.

imo the privatisation and intervention arguments are becoming secondary at this stage - it's clear that the Government is actually involved in a cover up about what it knew and when. I'd also suggest if it's true, based on the board giving away powers in the absence of Government nominees, it was actually conspiring to facilitate the move from the start.

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Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

4 flights a day to an airport in the middle of nowhere......"

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:rolleyes:

bearing in mind Limerick and Derry are very similarly sized how big do you think a place has to be to stop being an ah forget it I'm not even arsed.