Setanta Cup - The Verdict

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02/04/2007, 12:01 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnnaghRed

You old name-dropper you. Go on then, tell me what you've heard from the IFA.

8 league cup wins huh? Maybe the bigger clubs treat it with a bit of disrepect, preferring instead to concentrate on their league campaigns?

Looks like Derry will be giving it their best shot this season again, eh?

What i'm slabbering about is you looking down your nose at the Irish League.

A league in which teams like Ards, Ballymena and Glenavon boasted a higher number of League and/or cup wins during your spell within its ranks.

I made no claims regarding Portadown, you brought them into the equation....probably coz they were one of the few teams you could lord it over :rolleyes:

Incidentally, urban legend has it that Portadown evicted a few of your relatives prior to building Shamrock Park, and as a result had a gypsy curse hanging over them until 1989...the year before their first title win.

Annagh Red - you're the worst type of WUM : i.e. a not particularly good one, who has to resort to personal abuse to bolster their otherwise rubbish WUMness. I don't find your rascist attitude towards travellers particualrly endearing either.

I don't give a feck what the Irish League was like in 1973 - all i care is about right now. And right now the Irish league is a one horse show. Apart from Linfield it's pure muck. And it's particularly muck in comparison to the EL. You getting humped 7:0 at home by Cork should've made you painfully aware of that. I don't need to look down my nose at the Irish League - results in the Setanta cup and Europe over the last 3 seasons do that objectively for all to see.

As for the IFA person - they told me exactly what I've stated above. That there are ongoing problems with Loyalist paramilitaries and your social club. If you have a problem with that, speak to the IFA/the local hoods/your social club/all of the above.

Now go away and stop trying to be a WUM. I know you've got to get your kicks somewhere, but you're boring me even more than a 1:1 home draw with Larne would...
02/04/2007, 12:38 AM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymro

Steve,

Barry Town won several ties in Europe during their reign of terror/brilliance (delete as applicable according to club loyalties). Highlights included drawing 3-3 with Aberdeen and beating Porto 3-1 both at Jenner Park. They were a very good side in their day.

Rhyl, Carmarthen, Llanelli all have won ties in the last few years. TNS probably would have by now with all the money pumped into them if they hadn't had to play Liverpool and Man City in that time.

Now I don't support those clubs as most of them are financially backed (paticularly Barry) but still credit where credit's due.

I don't care that Welsh clubs have notched up "several" moral victories in Europe, for the simple fact that they count for little. Prior to Longford's disagraceful capitulation in Europe 2 years ago, only one Welsh team (Barry) had ever progressed a round in Europe. Beating Porto in a 2nd leg when you're already 8:0 down firom the first may have made Barry fans feel happy for a day, but losinhg 9:3 on aggreagte is no caused for celebration to be fair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymro

It's all well and good you and your mates saying the Eircom League is light years ahead of it but I don't recall that being the case on either of the occasions when our sides met your sides in Europe.

I think you're being very dismissive about the Longford-Carmarthen result. It happened and you can't ignore it and dismiss it like that. I honestly don't know how anyone can fluke a 5-1 win. 1-0, 2-0 or even 3-0 maybe, but not a 5-1 win.

Even supposing you're right and that was just a sheer flukey result. There was another meeting a few years back where Cork played Cwmbran. They only won on away goals, and that was in the inaugural season of the Welsh Premier. Standards have improved enormously since then.

Cork versus Cwbran "a few years back"...?!?!? :confused: It was in 1993 ffs - 14 years back ! The Eircom League is light years on in terms of ability since then. Even in the last 3-4 seasons there's been a noticeable improvement in our league - as evidenced by European results. When Welsh clubs are regularly navigating one round of European competition - let alone making it to the 3rd - then maybe we can have this chat in a sensible fashion.

As for Longford versus Carmarthen - despite seeing the game with my own eyes I have absaolutely no idea what happened. In the 22 years that I have been following Irish and lower-level football I have never seen a team so disinterested and inept as Longford were in the 2nd half of that game. Were I into conspiracy theories, I'd have run a chemicals test on the water supply in the away dressing room.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymro

Incidentally, what matches have you seen Steve?

Inter-Cable Tel Cardiff v Barry Town (from memory 1994/5 season)
Connah's Quay v Porthmadog (1996/7 season)
Carmarthen v Longford (2005)
2007 Welsh Premier Cup Final (on TV).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymro

I saw the FAI final last year and I was impressed, but no way would I say it's miles ahead of what the top teams here are capable of. The bottom few teams are maybe different as we've got an 18 team league so top talent always tends to turn up at the top few clubs.

A few posts later you state the following, in reference to the Welsh premier :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymro

The top sides would definitely be OK in the Conference

If that isn't an admission that the Welsh league is way weaker than the EL then what is ? Most EL fans would confidently state that the best teams in our league would be on a par with lower English Championship and mid-to-lower SPL teams. And we don't just say that through EL-tinted glasses - we see enough of our own league and of those other leagues to make a judgement. If you're judgement is that the Welsh best would only do "OK" in the Conference, then I rest my case.
02/04/2007, 8:36 AM
charliesboots

any chance of locking this thread Mod or even dumping the some of the sh!t into rubbush?
02/04/2007, 3:08 PM
Cymro

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I don't care that Welsh clubs have notched up "several" moral victories in Europe, for the simple fact that they count for little. Prior to Longford's disagraceful capitulation in Europe 2 years ago, only one Welsh team (Barry) had ever progressed a round in Europe. Beating Porto in a 2nd leg when you're already 8:0 down firom the first may have made Barry fans feel happy for a day, but losinhg 9:3 on aggreagte is no caused for celebration to be fair.

You win the Barry v Porto point. But then I'd already acknowleged that when challenged by Ret�oir and I highly doubt that any Eircom League side would beat Porto over two legs either.

Also, yes, only Barry had won a tie in Europe, but in the last two years three Welsh sides have won ties in Europe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Cork versus Cwbran "a few years back"...?!?!? :confused: It was in 1993 ffs - 14 years back ! The Eircom League is light years on in terms of ability since then. Even in the last 3-4 seasons there's been a noticeable improvement in our league - as evidenced by European results. When Welsh clubs are regularly navigating one round of European competition - let alone making it to the 3rd - then maybe we can have this chat in a sensible fashion.

3-4 years ago.......about the time summer football was introduced to the League of Ireland? It's obvious summer football has had a very positive effect on the performances of Eircom League clubs in European competiton. I've seen enough European games involving Welsh sides to know that match fitness plays a large part in it. I've lost count of the number of times that I've been watching a Welsh side in Europe and they've conceded in the last 5 minutes of either half. Often these have been crucial away goals too. It would be interesting to see how Welsh sides would fare with the advantage of summer football. Unfortunately, there are major stumbling blocks to this, so I doubt we'll see it happen in the forseeable future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

As for Longford versus Carmarthen - despite seeing the game with my own eyes I have absaolutely no idea what happened. In the 22 years that I have been following Irish and lower-level football I have never seen a team so disinterested and inept as Longford were in the 2nd half of that game. Were I into conspiracy theories, I'd have run a chemicals test on the water supply in the away dressing room.

I assure you, if Longford were anywhere near as good as you think they were they would have done Carmarthen, interested or not. If the gulf in quality is as big as you say (not forgetting Longford finished sixth that year in a league, that, from reading some posts here, you deem to be better than League One) then I'm certain they would have beaten Carmarthen with their eyes closed. The fact that they didn't, and more importantly, lost 5-1 (!) more casts doubt on your opinion of the Eircom League than it does my opinion of the relative levels of the EL and Welsh Premier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Inter-Cable Tel Cardiff v Barry Town (from memory 1994/5 season)
Connah's Quay v Porthmadog (1996/7 season)
Carmarthen v Longford (2005)
2007 Welsh Premier Cup Final (on TV).

Two games from the early years of the league then (oh and didn't you use the fact that the EL 'has come light years on since then' in your earlier argument). It is really very easy for me to simply say the same, that the Welsh Premier has come on in leaps and bounds over the last few years. In fact, I can back this up with recent European results, and there is no summer football switch here to cast doubt on those facts.

Plus there's of course the cornerstone of your argument: the Carmarthen v Longford match. See above.

This year's Welsh Premier Cup final (which you mention you saw) was Newport v TNS. TNS had to go to Newport in front of a hostile crowd and play on a crap pitch. Yet they still fully outplayed a Newport side chasing promotion to the Conference under those conditions.

Furthermore they beat in the semis a Cardiff side containing two ex-EL players who I know were very highly rated over in Ireland. Jason Byrne and David Forde. Proving that not all Eircom League players are like Kevin Doyle......what's your answer to that one Steve? Surely a player like Byrne who's scored hundreds of goals in your super duper league should be able to put at least three beyond the journeymen from Llansatffraid. :rolleyes:

That Cardiff side also contained four players with fairly recent experience in the Premiership, by the way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

If that isn't an admission that the Welsh league is way weaker than the EL then what is ? Most EL fans would confidently state that the best teams in our league would be on a par with lower English Championship and mid-to-lower SPL teams. And we don't just say that through EL-tinted glasses - we see enough of our own league and of those other leagues to make a judgement. If you're judgement is that the Welsh best would only do "OK" in the Conference, then I rest my case.

Firstly, you make an assertion that the top EL teams would be Championship standard. Back that up with results please. I haven't noticed any EL sides play Championship sides recently, and without actually having that to go on it's hard to know where they would actually be. I don't really disagree with you about SPL sides because of Derry's win over Gretna. But then lower SPL sides (and certainly SD1 sides) are really not that great.

Secondly even if you are correct in that assertion, it in no way means that all EL teams are of the same standard. To be honest, if Longford can't beat Carmarthen when there's a tie against Copenhagen at stake for the winners then it really doesn't say much about the strength of the lower half of your league. And I re-iterrate, Longford were sixth in your league that year.

Going on the recent cup final that I saw but more importantly the facts, I am absolutely sure that while the Eircom League may well be ahead of the Welsh Premier, the gap is nowhere near as big as you'd like to make it. Unless you can come up with some significant evidence to convince me otherwise, I see no reason to change my opinion.
02/04/2007, 4:35 PM
CuanaD

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwiftsSupporter

We won our semi-final today so now we've a better chance of getting into the Setanta next season:)

:ball:
Well done

When is the Final?
02/04/2007, 4:51 PM
SwiftsSupporter

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuanaD

:ball:
Well done

When is the Final?

Thanks. May 5th.
02/04/2007, 4:54 PM
pete

Came into this thread late but cannot believe someone is suggesting the Welsh League on a par with the LOI. Moral victories for the LOI/eL are a thing of the past as we prefer to discuss victories now.

The Carmarthen result was shameful event in recent eL european results. The eL got more european ranking points last season than wales have got for the last 5 years. The are 12 places between both leagues & that will increase in the coming years :rolleyes:
02/04/2007, 5:24 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymro

Going on the recent cup final that I saw but more importantly the facts, I am absolutely sure that while the Eircom League may well be ahead of the Welsh Premier, the gap is nowhere near as big as you'd like to make it.

So we're both agred that the EL is better than the Welsh League. Thank fcuk for that - I was dreading having to trawl through your post and respond to everything in it....! :eek:

As Pete pointed out - the stats are clear here for our league's comparative performances in Europe. And congratulations on having 3 Welsh teams progressing beyond a 1st round in Europe over the last few years. We had all 4 progress in a single year in 2006. Come back and see me when that happens in Cyrmu.....

Nos da Vienna....
02/04/2007, 6:49 PM
AnnaghRed

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

you're the worst type of WUM : i.e. a not particularly good one, who has to resort to personal abuse to bolster their otherwise rubbish WUMness

I had to look and see what a "WUM" is, and yes you are right, I was being a WUM, but at least i'm putting it on.

I get the feeling your arrogance and ease at getting on the wrong side of people just comes naturally.

The LoI has taken a giant leap forwards in the past couple of seasons.And perhaps our series of results against Cork since Setanta One best emphasise that.

Summer football has undoubtably improved their performances in europe, but the whole set-up just has a professional look and feel about it. Certainly when compared to the IL.

While Linfield's performances in the Setanta have been second to none, I seriously doubt if even they could sustain that level of competitiveness over the course of a season.

And with the tough shedule they've had lately, it wouldn't surprise me if they come un-stuck tonight against Drogheda. Though their previous results should see them qualify regardless [no WUMness intended].

While personally speaking I hope Pats beat Cork and Dungannon maintain their interest by knocking about 10 past Portadown.
03/04/2007, 10:03 AM
NY Hoop

Where does Jeffries get the K in Drogheda?

IMO good for the competition that linfield are still involved given that our clubs are getting through to the latter stages with ease. No good for the future of the competition if EL clubs are winning it every year.

KOH
03/04/2007, 3:13 PM
Cymro

Quote:

Originally Posted by pete

Came into this thread late but cannot believe someone is suggesting the Welsh League on a par with the LOI. Moral victories for the LOI/eL are a thing of the past as we prefer to discuss victories now.

Please point out where I said this, I merely suggested the gap is not as big as you think and what's more I've used facts and statistics to back it up.

Steve, yes we are agreed that the EL is better than the WPL but not by that much! You don't have to go through my post point by point but I would appreciate it if you did as I would be interested to hear what you have to say about it.

And again pete dismissing the Carmarthen result. As I said fellas, it happened and probably goes to show that your league outside the top 4 is not that special. And we don't have moral victories we have actual victories. Our league coefficient is on a par with the Northern Irish league and getting stronger. With summer football it would undoubtedly improve........

Cue angry posts from residents denying the legitamacy of my points!
03/04/2007, 3:18 PM
Cymro

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

So we're both agred that the EL is better than the Welsh League. Thank fcuk for that - I was dreading having to trawl through your post and respond to everything in it....! :eek:

As Pete pointed out - the stats are clear here for our league's comparative performances in Europe. And congratulations on having 3 Welsh teams progressing beyond a 1st round in Europe over the last few years. We had all 4 progress in a single year in 2006. Come back and see me when that happens in Cyrmu.....

Nos da Vienna....

Steve, I did address performances in Europe, see my latest post. Summer football has obviously influenced the performances of Irish teams in Europe. Prior to summer football (in the modern era) your results were nothing special.
03/04/2007, 3:46 PM
NY Hoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymro

Steve, I did address performances in Europe, see my latest post. Summer football has obviously influenced the performances of Irish teams in Europe. Prior to summer football (in the modern era) your results were nothing special.

Prior to summer football our results were abysmal.

KOH
03/04/2007, 4:31 PM
BleusAvantTout

Back to Setanta.....................according to the assertions of DCFC fans they are a better club than even the great Real Madrid sides of the late 1950s!! :rolleyes:

These same fans must have all been banned from ILF!!! :cool: :D
03/04/2007, 4:49 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by BleusAvantTout

Back to Setanta.....................according to the assertions of DCFC fans they are a better club than even the great Real Madrid sides of the late 1950s!! :rolleyes:

These same fans must have all been banned from ILF!!! :D

Grow up BAT. I wouldn't mind if yer banter was half funny... :o
03/04/2007, 5:06 PM
dcfcsteve

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cymro

Steve, I did address performances in Europe, see my latest post. Summer football has obviously influenced the performances of Irish teams in Europe. Prior to summer football (in the modern era) your results were nothing special.

You listed a handful of one-off victories in Eurepe, and ignored my call for you to come back when all 4 Welsh clubs progress a round in Europe together.

In your enthusiasm to give us the rare positive results for Welsh clubs in Europe, you also neglected to mention the following negative aggregate results against practically unheard of/weak opposition since 2000 :

2000 TNS 2 : 6 Levadia Maardu.
2000 Cwmbran 0 : 2 Nistru Unisport
2002 Caersws 1 : 3 Marek Dupnita
2003 Bangor 2 : 6 Gloria Bistrita.
2003 Barry 2 : 4 Varder Skopje
2004 Aberystwyth 0 : 4 Dinaburg
2006 TNS 0:2 MyPa 47
2006 Carmarthern 1 : 8 Tampere United

The quality of opposition listed above is just poor. The EL 's only genuinely poor result in Europe in recent years has been Longford. Meanwhile, we've clocked-up some seriously respectable results against quality teams. Not just beating a junior team in the 2nd leg of a tie when you're 8:0 down already - but knocking-out the likes of Hadjuk Split, Malmo, Gothenborg, Djurgardens, Nijmegen, Ghent, Helsinki, Apollon Limassol - and all in the last 3 years. You simply cannot ignore the fact that our Euopean results beat the Welsh ones hands down - as shown by our relative rankings.

Summer football has certainly helped in this - but if you're trying to tell me that the only difference between the Welsh and Irish leagues is Summer football, then you're delusional. The complete lack of money in your game, due to atrociously low levels of support - way lower than even our graveyard First Division - should be evidence enough alone to make you understand there is a sizeable gap. Football these days is all about money. The EL doesn't have a lot - but it certainly has spades more than the Welsh Premier....

All that aside - let's just agree to differ on this, as I acn't be arsed to keep going round in circles.
03/04/2007, 6:07 PM
BleusAvantTout

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Grow up BAT. I wouldn't mind if yer banter was half funny... :o

IMO not half as :o as DCFC....you know it's true!!! :D
03/04/2007, 8:40 PM
monkey magic

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Ghent

don't mean to be a nip-picker but didn't boh's loose that game???
03/04/2007, 9:13 PM
Cymro

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

You listed a handful of one-off victories in Eurepe, and ignored my call for you to come back when all 4 Welsh clubs progress a round in Europe together.

In your enthusiasm to give us the rare positive results for Welsh clubs in Europe, you also neglected to mention the following negative aggregate results against practically unheard of/weak opposition since 2000 :

2000 TNS 2 : 6 Levadia Maardu.
2000 Cwmbran 0 : 2 Nistru Unisport
2002 Caersws 1 : 3 Marek Dupnita
2003 Bangor 2 : 6 Gloria Bistrita.
2003 Barry 2 : 4 Varder Skopje
2004 Aberystwyth 0 : 4 Dinaburg
2006 TNS 0:2 MyPa 47
2006 Carmarthern 1 : 8 Tampere United

The quality of opposition listed above is just poor. The EL 's only genuinely poor result in Europe in recent years has been Longford. Meanwhile, we've clocked-up some seriously respectable results against quality teams. Not just beating a junior team in the 2nd leg of a tie when you're 8:0 down already - but knocking-out the likes of Hadjuk Split, Malmo, Gothenborg, Djurgardens, Nijmegen, Ghent, Helsinki, Apollon Limassol - and all in the last 3 years. You simply cannot ignore the fact that our Euopean results beat the Welsh ones hands down - as shown by our relative rankings.

Some of the teams you mentioned are poor. But quite a few are Romanian/Finnish sides and as Steaua Bucharest/HJK have proven their leagues are by no means bad.

You also list Tampere and MyPa as bad teams as part of your argument against WPL and Helsinki as a good one as part of your argument for the League of Ireland. Yet they play in the same league! So how'd you work that one out?

In fact if I remember correctly one of the sides you mention, MyPa had beaten Dundee United in Europe the previous year prior to playing TNS. So no disgrace for TNS there.

And for the record, Longford lost the previous year to Vaduz of Liechtenstein, further evidence should you need it that the majority of teams in your league are not that great.

Yes, I have been quick to mention the successes of Welsh sides in Europe and slow to mention the failures. I do recall Shelbourne losing to a Maltese side a few years back though, prior to the advent of summer football. And that's just one case I can think of off the top of my head. If I did a bit of digging I'm sure I could find more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Summer football has certainly helped in this - but if you're trying to tell me that the only difference between the Welsh and Irish leagues is Summer football, then you're delusional. The complete lack of money in your game, due to atrociously low levels of support - way lower than even our graveyard First Division - should be evidence enough alone to make you understand there is a sizeable gap. Football these days is all about money. The EL doesn't have a lot - but it certainly has spades more than the Welsh Premier....

Prior to summer football I think Irish sides were more or less in the same boat as Welsh ones-for a while in the late 90s we were ahead of you in the UEFA coefficient rankings. It's only really in the last 3-4 years that Irish sides have climbed the rankings significantly. I'm not saying that's entirely down to summer football but it has certainly played a big part. And not once did I ever say the only difference was summer football. What I said was that summer football if implemented in the Welsh Premier would probably see an improvement in European results similar to the one that Irish sides have experienced. Whether that would be enough to put the two leagues on a par, well we won't know unless it's tried.

Next you mention money. Well for a start I'd be willing to bet there's a significantly bigger amount of money in the Championship and League One (and possibly even League Two) than even the best sides in Ireland. Casts a bit of doubt on your earlier statement in this thread. i.e. that top League of Ireland sides would be comfortably Championship. that is, going on your assertion of the importance of money to the modern game.

Secondly, there are two full time teams in the Welsh Premier and nearly all the clubs have financial backers. Mainly, because European football is so lucrative clubs are prepared to spend beyond their natural means to achieve it. TNS are a good example of this, and as I said can frequently match clubs on much bigger crowds. Don't let the attendance figures fool you into thinking all teams are your typical bunch of butchers, bakers and candlestick makers etc. Sure you get some teams who are happy to survive, but the majority are looking to push on to bigger and better things. My local side Port Talbot have just built a new 1,000-seat stand, for example. If there was no money in the Welsh game they'd hardly be able to pay their bills never mind upgrade their grounds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

All that aside - let's just agree to differ on this, as I acn't be arsed to keep going round in circles.

Can I just remind you. You were the one who initially attacked the Welsh Premier. I'm just defending it. And doing a good job by the way. ;) If you want to quit the argument now, that's fine by me.
03/04/2007, 9:14 PM
Cymro

Quote:

Originally Posted by monkey magic

don't mean to be a nip-picker but didn't boh's loose that game???

Oh dear. :o

Thank you sir for pointing out his error......:D

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