Northern players declaring for the Republic

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27/10/2006, 2:25 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

this "i'm irish and british" line we are being fed by the OWC men & NI supporters on this thread is nonscence.

if our OWC friends can move away from the cunning ruggers smoking pipes on their beds stories long enough and accept that to the dislike of a number of people on both sides of the boarder that there is a state called northern ireland where some of the peoples believe that they are british then it must also be accepted that there are people in that state who feel 100% irish and not one iota british as their ancestorial background has only recently come under the rule of the crown.

It is not nonsense - it's a reality.

You may dislike the fact that there is a place called Northern Ireland, but there is, and it forms part of the United Kingdom.

I fully accept that there are people in Northern Ireland who identify solely as Irish and desire to see Northern Ireland cease to be part of the United Kingdom, and to form part of a 32 County, Ireland.

That's all sorted.

The GFA upholds the right of anyone in Northern Ireland to identify as Irish and/or British.

The constitutional position will change if and when the majority of people in Northern Ireland see fit for change.

That's the deal that I, and the vast majority of nationalists/republicans, have endorsed.

However, that in itself will not "unite" Irish people from differing backgrounds.

What good a territory united, if it's people remain divided?

Not for me to suggest how to bring about a "united" people - but I would suggest that respecting their differing identities might be a useful starting point. It sure beats trying to bomb an identity out of existance.

I have long stated that their will be no "victories" for one side over the other on this island.

Either we all win together, or we continue to be divided forever.
27/10/2006, 2:33 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dodge

But, given these two options ONLY, would you prefer a player to play for NI youths and then declare for the republic OR play for NI youths, want to declare for the republic but be stopped, and then play for NI senior side knowing he wants to play for the Republic?

I wouldn't want any player to play for any of our teams, who was not giving 100% commitment.

Of the restricted two scenarios you pose, I would, very reluctantly, opt for the former.
27/10/2006, 2:35 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

if there's a crown or a union flag involved, it's not an Irish team as far as i am concerned. while i dont claim to speak for my fellow Irish on here there's a hell of a lot of others who agree...

Not looking good for the prospects of a "United" Ireland then, is it?:rolleyes:

PS. Northern Ireland do not play under the Union Flag.
27/10/2006, 2:38 PM
Dodge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

I wouldn't want any player to play for any of our teams, who was not giving 100% commitment.

Of the restricted two scenarios you pose, I would, very reluctantly, opt for the former.

AHA! SO you admit... (only kidding)

I wasn't try to pointscore or anything. I fully understand where you're coming from as regards your nationality etc and like billsthoughts earlier I'm one of those who wish the Northern teams well.
27/10/2006, 2:41 PM
EalingGreen

Originally Posted by gspain
I assume that applies to the breakup of a country eg former Yugoslavia or Soviet Union.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

do you not think it applies here? a kid has an Irish passport, but theyre telling him they dont want him to play for that country....

I think Gspain was partly correct.

An example of the effect of the break-up of a country was with Andrei Kanchelskis, who was born in the Ukraine when it was part of the USSR. AFAIK, he wished to continue representing Russia, and was not able to be blocked from this by the new Ukrainian FA, never mind forced to play for them.

Anyhow, I think it was primarily intended to apply to a country which was taken over, or subsumed, by another country. An example would be Hong Kong, where FIFA recognises that although HK is no longer an semi-autonomous British Territory, it is still allowed to keep its own separate team and Associate Membership of the Asian Confederation*.

Anyhow, Merc 67's attempt to relate this particular clause to such precedents is flawed, since the Irish situation is not analogous to either.

It might be so if NI were to cease to be part of the UK, and a "Norn Iron Kanchelskis" were to refuse to play for any new team which replaced it.

Similarly, if e.g. the ROI were invaded from overseas by some foreign power (unlikely, I know), ROI-born citizens could not be compelled to represent the new power.

Some argue that even if born in NI, a player may still have Irish/ROI Nationality, so should be allowed to to represent the FAI.
No-one is suggesting that he have British Identity forced upon him, or be forced to represent NI, which is what this clause deals with.
Rather, some others are arguing that if someone is born within the territory of one Association, then he can not represent another Association unless he has a qualifying connection with it (parent/grandparent/residency).
This latter was what FIFA appeared to be saying when faced with the situation of e.g. Qatar giving Passports and Nationality (and huge amounts of dosh) to talented young Brazilians and claiming them to play for the Qatar side.

* - Hmmm, a British territory ceasing to be, yet keeping its international team... There's an interesting idea ;)
27/10/2006, 2:45 PM
Merc67

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Anyhow, Merc 67's attempt to relate this particular clause to such precedents is flawed, since the Irish situation is not analogous to either.

No-one is suggesting that he have British Identity forced upon him, or be forced to represent NI, which is what this clause deals with.

i didnt compare the situation to the precedent you claim, so you cannot say i attempted to relate to them.

this situation is about your fa wanting to compel everyone from that jurisdiction to play for the ni team. that IS forcing them to play for ni.
its not an immediate postwar situation as you mentioned, but it is similar.
27/10/2006, 2:52 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

He must have been a Brit so if his idea of good fun is thrashing places up abroad :)

Somehow, I don't imagine Fergus Slattery was too far away from the fun, or Johnny Moloney, for that matter. Perhaps they, like Messrs. McBride, McKinney, Milliken, Kennedy and Gibson, were "closet Brits" as well...

(Imagine that, eh, five Ulstermen, two Leinstermen and no Munstermen in a Lions Squad. Must have been the influence of that other West Brit, Coach Syd Millar...;) )
27/10/2006, 2:54 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

this situation is about your fa wanting to compel everyone from that jurisdiction to play for the ni team. that IS forcing them to play for ni.
its not an immediate postwar situation as you mentioned, but it is similar.

I'm not so sure it's about anybody forcing anyone to do anything.

There is obviously confusion about FIFA eligibility rules.

The IFA and FAI will sit down, discuss it, get guidance from FIFA, and agree to move forward.

Anyone who does not want to play for Northern Ireland is no asset to Northern Ireland.

Nobody is "forced" to play for Northern Ireland.

Any player is perfectly capable of saying to the IFA to "shove it up yer arse" -whether FIFA rules permit them to then play for another Association is what is up for debate.
27/10/2006, 3:00 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

im sure that wasnt for me:) but no, it didnt do that at all, though it is a good article.

notice that its the british and irish lions they are two different things!

as for willie mc, ive yet to meet him personally, when i do ill post the resultant 'chat' on here:)

In 1974, they were simply known as "The British Lions". This was a throwback to their origins, when the whole of Ireland was an integral part of the United Kingdom.

As for McBride, no-one calls him Willie Mc - he's usually known as "Willie John" (it's an Ulster thing), or Bill, to his mates.

Anyhow, if you were to repeat to him some of the things you've posted here, I don't know whether he'd employ a British fist or an Irish one, but you won't be posting anything from anywhere for a very long time! :D
27/10/2006, 3:07 PM
Stuttgart88

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Somehow, I don't imagine Fergus Slattery was too far away from the fun, or Johnny Moloney, for that matter. Perhaps they, like Messrs. McBride, McKinney, Milliken, Kennedy and Gibson, were "closet Brits" as well...

(Imagine that, eh, five Ulstermen, two Leinstermen and no Munstermen in a Lions Squad. Must have been the influence of that other West Brit, Coach Syd Millar...;) )

Yep, but they weren't captain!

Was only having a joke anyway. Pretty crappy behaviour all round. Soccer players would be slaughtered for that type of behaviour these days. Different times I suppose but I always think rugby players can pass off loutish behaviour much easier than soccer players.
27/10/2006, 3:08 PM
Merc67

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

In 1974, they were simply known as "The British Lions". This was a throwback to their origins, when the whole of Ireland was an integral part of the United Kingdom.

as you may have noticed the name is no longer the same, reflecting the fact that irish = no longer British:)
27/10/2006, 3:18 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

as you may have noticed the name is no longer the same, reflecting the fact that irish = no longer British:)

Oh, some of us Irish still are Merc67.;)
27/10/2006, 3:23 PM
co. down green

don't you think it would be astonishing if they would presently ignore possible young players from up the road in NI, especially when at least some of them would be amenable to an approach?

Players such as Gibson & Wilson have stated that they have grown up supporting Ireland (as do a large proportion of the population in the North), and while I agree, it would be hard to produce concrete evidence of their reasoning for opting to play for Ireland, I think you may well find that as Irish citizens, who support their national team, it was probably a pretty easy choice for them, and no more difficult a choice than that of a young Dublin or Cork lad.

I think the whole issue has been blurred for far to long and the sooner UEFA confirm the qualification issue and young players from the North are aware of the situation regarding their international choices , it will fail to be a talking point.

It is however important for the FAI to put structures in place to cater for young players form Belfast, Derry, Lurgan etc. who wish to represent Ireland at international level and an extension of the current development and training programmes etc..into the 6 Northern counties would put in place the necessary provision for these young players to develop without them having to use the IFA structures at youth level, as has been the case in the past
27/10/2006, 3:49 PM
galwayhoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Anyhow, I think it was primarily intended to apply to a country which was taken over, or subsumed, by another country.
.........
Similarly, if e.g. the ROI were invaded from overseas by some foreign power (unlikely, I know), ROI-born citizens could not be compelled to represent the new power.

sounds vaguely familar!

as we've been saying these lads should not be forced to represent the new power who have subsumed the island initally and remain in part of it :p
27/10/2006, 3:51 PM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"The excuse that NI is in the UK and must wrap itself in the paraphanalia of unionism is rubbish" You are being rather selective in your reading.You have failed to recognise and head what myself and Ealing Green have consistently stated on this thread.We both favour the "paraphanalia of unionism" being dropped at Northern Ireland representative matches ie, essentially a new sporting anthem and a new flag.

To be replaced by what? Other paraphanalia of unionism. You already admit you object to the tricolour for the same reasons.

Why should nationalists accept this when inclusivity could be acheived by having two athems and two flags? Simple enough I would have thought. Or is it that you can stomach nationalists playing for you but can't stomach their nationalism?

I mean, I'm hardly someone that has time for British nationalism but even I have to admit that the playing of just the Soldier's Song at Irish rugby matches is not inclusive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"Unionism is a combination of being Irish and British, ..."
Unionism is a political ideal. My Irishness and my Britishness are my birthright.

Sorry mate, but this is a discussion about what 'country' one wants to play for, and therefore politics. You're trying to muddy the waters with some cack about being British and Irish at the same time, while being hostile to the democratic wishes of the majority of all the people that live in Ireland. If you had dual - nationality, I'd accept your protests about being Irish and British, although dual nationality doesn't mean you can use one nationality to subjugate the other. However, you admit you don't, so you're just plain British to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"Northern Ireland as an entity remaining as it is, is not a prerequiste to unification. I'd fully support NI retaining huge autonomy in return for Irish unification" Unification will not come about by telling people born and bred in Northern Ireland what they are and what they are not. Even in a so called "united" Ireland, I will be Irish and British. What's more, any "Eire Nua" would fully respect, and uphold, that. British identity on this island is not going away anytime soon.

British identity doesn't need to go away. I'm not for telling anyone what country's passport they should hold, so cop on and grow up. In fact it's the British government that will stop you getting a British passport, not the Irish.

As stated above, I have no objection to you being British, having British citizenship etc. Despite your pathetic harking back to the 'Brits Out' of 1921, 'Brits Out' means British power being removed. With the exception of a brief pogrom in Bandon, there has never been any attempt to force unionists out of the 26 counties. If you look at the last census, the British make up the biggest minority in the 26C.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"I'm an Irish citizen born and bred in England...'' Good for you - I respect your identity. I identify somewhat differently to you.

You certainly do. I do not wish to interfere in who runs Britain. I don't support the annexing of any part of British territory by a foreign country (unless it doesn't belong to them). I don't support the break up of Britain (e.g. Scottish independence). You can have a German Lady as your ruler as far as I care (J*s*s, imagine 7 years of Th*tch). Your stance - if you still insist on calling yourself Irish - however is more like the Oswald Moseleys and William Joyces who would have welcomed the Nazis.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Not looking good for the prospects of a "United" Ireland then, is it?:rolleyes: PS. Northern Ireland do not play under the Union Flag.

No they play under the British anthem instead.

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Similarly, if e.g. the ROI were invaded from overseas by some foreign power...

It already is.
27/10/2006, 3:53 PM
galwayhoop

BTW kanchelskis represents ukraine, did so at the world cup and AFAIK continues to do so.

he is on record as saying that the only badge he will kiss is the national crest so i can't see how he'd want to stay on with russia but if he did it was for other reasons
27/10/2006, 4:17 PM
geysir

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Rather, some others are arguing that if someone is born within the territory of one Association, then he can not represent another Association unless he has a qualifying connection with it (parent/grandparent/residency).
This latter was what FIFA appeared to be saying when faced with the situation of e.g. Qatar giving Passports and Nationality (and huge amounts of dosh) to talented young Brazilians and claiming them to play for the Qatar side.

Mercs/dosh and passports, the brainchild of none other than Phillipe Troussier when manager of Qatar.
27/10/2006, 4:19 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

BTW kanchelskis represents ukraine, did so at the world cup and AFAIK continues to do so.

he is on record as saying that the only badge he will kiss is the national crest so i can't see how he'd want to stay on with russia but if he did it was for other reasons

Unless we're talking about another Andrei Kanchelskis, I beg to differ:

Andrei Kanchelskis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia [Abbreviated by EG]

Full name Andrei Antanasovich Kanchelskis
Date of birth January 23, 1969
Place of birth Kirovograd, USSR (Ukraine)
Position Midfielder
Current club FC Krylya Sovetov Samara

National team**
? USSR/Russia 23 (3)/36 (5)

** National team caps and goals correct
as of 2006.

Andrei Antanasovich Kanchelskis (Russian: Aндрей Канчельскис, born January 23, 1969 in Kirovograd) is a Ukrainian football midfielder who claimed Russian citizenship after the fall of the Soviet Union. He currently plays for FC Krylya Sovetov Samara in Russia. He is a dynamic goal scoring winger with great pace.

Although Kanchelskis was born in Ukraine and his heritage is Lithuanian, he chose to represent Russia. He was capped 23 times for the Soviet Union national team, scoring three goals, and 36 times for Russia, scoring five goals. After leading a player boycott against head coach Pavel Sadyrin and therefore missing the 1994 FIFA World Cup, the only senior major international tournaments Kanchelskis played in were Euro 92 and Euro 96.
27/10/2006, 4:22 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

Mercs/dosh and passports, the brainchild of none other than Phillipe Troussier when manager of Qatar.

I wonder whether he "trousered" any of it for himself? :D

(Sorry, that was awful. I fear the medication is wearing off. Nurse? NURSE?)
27/10/2006, 4:22 PM
Merc67

as an aside, which may or may not cut this thread short:)

how can one be 'proud' of a state that was 'created' by a few lads in 1920 with a rubber and a pencil and was redrawn on numerous occasions to cut out the fellas who now want to play for the 'other' part of the island? it's always baffled me how ppl say theyre proud of the north as a state. perhaps the people, yes, but a gerrymandered, manufactured, undemocratic abstract existence as it is.... i dont get it:D
27/10/2006, 4:23 PM
galwayhoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Unless we're talking about another Andrei Kanchelskis, I beg to differ:
I]

my mistake
27/10/2006, 4:26 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Was only having a joke anyway. Pretty crappy behaviour all round. Soccer players would be slaughtered for that type of behaviour these days. Different times I suppose but I always think rugby players can pass off loutish behaviour much easier than soccer players.

Joke appreciated :D , also the point about double standards being applied to footballers ("hooligans") and rugby players ("decent chaps, out for a bit of harmless fun") :(
27/10/2006, 4:29 PM
EalingGreen

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

i dont get it:D

There's quite a bit you "don't get", it would appear.;)

Still, it will make a good epitaph for your tombstone.:rolleyes:
27/10/2006, 4:37 PM
galwayhoop

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

In 1974, they were simply known as "The British Lions". This was a throwback to their origins, when the whole of Ireland was an integral part of the United Kingdom.

As for McBride, no-one calls him Willie Mc - he's usually known as "Willie John" (it's an Ulster thing), or Bill, to his mates.

Anyhow, if you were to repeat to him some of the things you've posted here, I don't know whether he'd employ a British fist or an Irish one, but you won't be posting anything from anywhere for a very long time! :D

why are we talking about rugby - this is a soccer forum - oval ball need not apply.

BTW is merc67 supposed to feel freightened that big bad billy mc (who qualifies for a free bus pass) is gonna get him for his nationalist views :D :D
27/10/2006, 4:38 PM
Merc67

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Still, it will make a good epitaph for your tombstone.:rolleyes:

not on my life:)
27/10/2006, 4:56 PM
Not Brazil

"To be replaced by what? Other paraphanalia of unionism. You already admit you object to the tricolour for the same reasons"

A "neutral", new, anthem and flag for sporting occassions in Northern Ireland, that offends no one.

"Why should nationalists accept this when inclusivity could be acheived by having two athems and two flags? Simple enough I would have thought

One, new, "neutral" anthem would be preferrable.

"Sorry mate, but this is a discussion about what 'country' one wants to play for, and therefore politics"

Yes, I'm aware of that...mate.

"You're trying to muddy the waters with some cack about being British and Irish at the same time, while being hostile to the democratic wishes of the majority of all the people that live in Ireland. If you had dual - nationality, I'd accept your protests about being Irish and British, although dual nationality doesn't mean you can use one nationality to subjugate the other. However, you admit you don't, so you're just plain British to me"

Not "muddying the waters" at all. The overwhelming majority of people in Ireland have settled the constitutional question of Northern Ireland - it's done, agreed, over.

I may be "plain British" to you, but what you think of my identity is irrelevent. It's what I know I am that counts.

"In fact it's the British government that will stop you getting a British passport, not the Irish"

Err...no, they wont.

"As stated above, I have no objection to you being British, having British citizenship etc"

Feel free to "object" all you like - I AM British...and Irish.

"Your stance - if you still insist on calling yourself Irish - however is more like the Oswald Moseleys and William Joyces who would have welcomed the Nazis"

How so?

Pathetically trying to link my identity with those of Nazis. Disgusting slur, showing a complete ignorance of history and my hertitage. Grow up and wise up.

Irish/British. Deal with it.

Born and bred on the island of Ireland, like my forefathers before me.

A supporter of the IRISH Football Association.

You may denounce my Irish identity (like you have your own place of birth) all you like - I will never denounce it. I'm proud of it.

"No they play under the British anthem instead"

It is the National Anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern IRELAND.
27/10/2006, 5:05 PM
Merc67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Irish/British. Deal with it.

why? just cos??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

"No they play under the British anthem instead"

It is the National Anthem of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern IRELAND.

it was written well before the north was created. a *******ised state with an adopted anthem.
yet is is only England and the north that use it.....:rolleyes: sad aint you..trying to be more British than the Eng...I mean British....

Frequently, when an anthem is needed for one of the component countries of the UK�at an international sporting event, for instance�an alternate song is used:

Wales has its own recognised anthem in "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau".
England generally uses "God Save the Queen", but has used "Jerusalem" or "Land of Hope and Glory".
Northern Ireland generally uses "God Save the Queen" at events associated with the British tradition, and the Irish national anthem "Amhr�n na bhFiann" at events associated with the Irish tradition.
Scotland uses either "Flower of Scotland" or "Scotland the Brave", or traditionally "Scots Wha Hae"; although the only official anthem is "God Save the Queen".
At international football matches, England and Northern Ireland both use "God Save the Queen", while Scotland uses "Flower of Scotland", and Wales uses "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". There has been some debate about replacing "God Save the Queen" with "Land of Hope and Glory" for England matches.
At international rugby league matches, England have used "Land of Hope and Glory" but in their 2005 internationals, changed to "God Save The Queen". Scotland uses "Flower of Scotland" and Wales uses "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". At Great Britain matches, "God Save the Queen" is played, which recently led to Irish-born Brian Carney bowing his head and not singing along.
In international rugby union, England uses "God Save the Queen", Scotland "Flower of Scotland" and Wales "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". Ireland (a team representing both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland) sing "Ireland's Call", a song which attempts to unite the two traditions on the island. The song is sung at Ireland's home and away games. At home games it is also accompanied by the Republic of Ireland's national anthem "A Soldier's Song".

strange how others change, and the wannabe brits up north dont... one team for one tribe...
27/10/2006, 5:09 PM
EalingGreen

Re. Lopez

Not Brazil,
Being English, Lopez will surely recognise the phrase:
"Leave it, he ain't worf it" :rolleyes:
27/10/2006, 5:23 PM
youngirish

This thread has gone way off the football. If Not Brazil and EalingGreen consider themselves British and Irish then that's their right. Comparing them to fascists and slating their right to choose how they define themselves is nonsense. They seem reasonably open-minded and less bigoted than many people (uinionists and nationalists) that I've met from the north (and to a lesser extent from the south) so I think some of the stick is a bit unfair.
27/10/2006, 5:34 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

why? just cos??

it was written well before the north was created. a *******ised state with an adopted anthem.
yet is is only England and the north that use it.....:rolleyes: sad aint you..trying to be more British than the Eng...I mean British....

Frequently, when an anthem is needed for one of the component countries of the UK�at an international sporting event, for instance�an alternate song is used:

Wales has its own recognised anthem in "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau".
England generally uses "God Save the Queen", but has used "Jerusalem" or "Land of Hope and Glory".
Northern Ireland generally uses "God Save the Queen" at events associated with the British tradition, and the Irish national anthem "Amhr�n na bhFiann" at events associated with the Irish tradition.
Scotland uses either "Flower of Scotland" or "Scotland the Brave", or traditionally "Scots Wha Hae"; although the only official anthem is "God Save the Queen".
At international football matches, England and Northern Ireland both use "God Save the Queen", while Scotland uses "Flower of Scotland", and Wales uses "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". There has been some debate about replacing "God Save the Queen" with "Land of Hope and Glory" for England matches.
At international rugby league matches, England have used "Land of Hope and Glory" but in their 2005 internationals, changed to "God Save The Queen". Scotland uses "Flower of Scotland" and Wales uses "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". At Great Britain matches, "God Save the Queen" is played, which recently led to Irish-born Brian Carney bowing his head and not singing along.
In international rugby union, England uses "God Save the Queen", Scotland "Flower of Scotland" and Wales "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". Ireland (a team representing both Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland) sing "Ireland's Call", a song which attempts to unite the two traditions on the island. The song is sung at Ireland's home and away games. At home games it is also accompanied by the Republic of Ireland's national anthem "A Soldier's Song".

strange how others change, and the wannabe brits up north dont... one team for one tribe...

Thanks for sharing that with us Merc57,

Taking away your bile, you state exactly the reasons why I would like to see a new, sporting anthem for Northern Ireland games.;)

You obviously have missed the numerous previous occassions when I have stated that, on this thread.:rolleyes:
27/10/2006, 5:34 PM
Merc67

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngirish

This thread has gone way off the football. If Not Brazil and EalingGreen consider themselves British and Irish then that's their right. Comparing them to fascists and slating their right to choose how they define themselves is nonsense. They seem reasonably open-minded and less bigoted than many people (uinionists and nationalists) that I've met from the north (and to a lesser extent from the south) so I think some of the stick is a bit unfair.

you're prob right fella. no hard feelings lads, ye seem like two blokes i'd gladly have a pint and a row with:)
27/10/2006, 5:36 PM
galwayhoop

looks like a seemingly plausible thread has once again been dragged down by the OWC boys who want to lecture us uninformed.

wake up. cop on. you cannot be british and irish - end of discussion.

1. if you accept GSTQ as your anthem, the british (or is it german) royal family as your monarchary and the union jack as your flag then you are british. you may be born on the island of ireland but your alligences are to britain, you can call yourself northern irish if you please because you recognise it as a legitimate state but you are not irish or an irishman.

2. i am an irishman, Amhr�n na bhFiann is my anthem, i bow to no king nor queen, i am a citizen of a democratic state (albeit partitoned) and not the subject of his/her majesty the king/queen of england and the tricolour is my flag.

EDIT: if you meet the criteria of both 1 and 2 then you may call yourself both irish and british
27/10/2006, 5:36 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Not Brazil,
Being English, Lopez will surely recognise the phrase:
"Leave it, he ain't worf it" :rolleyes:

EG,

Did you hear the joke about the guy born in England, says he's Irish, and tells a boy born in Belfast that he's not Irish?

I know.:rolleyes: :(
27/10/2006, 5:38 PM
crc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

That's the deal that I, and the vast majority of nationalists/republicans, have endorsed.
However, that in itself will not "unite" Irish people from differing backgrounds.
What good a territory united, if it's people remain divided?

For me you've hit the nail on the head.

FWIW, I don't consider that some people in Ireland are British simply because a part of Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. The hold their identity(ies) because of their history and heritage. If NI left the UK tomorrow, never to return, I would still respect the rights of those to consider themselves British because I don't consider it to invalidate their Irishness. Similarly, if the south were to rejoin the UK it wouldn't mean that I would be British, or stop being Irish.

There are no cookie-cutter Irishmen; Irishness is made up of a mosaic of influences as far as I'm concerned and we should attemt to embrace (or at least respect) these differences rather that beat each other up over them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Either we all win together, or we continue to be divided forever.

Never a truer word said.
27/10/2006, 5:40 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by crc

For me you've hit the nail on the head.

FWIW, I don't consider that some people in Ireland are British simply because a part of Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. The hold their identity(ies) because of their history and heritage. If NI left the UK tomorrow, never to return, I would still respect the rights of those to consider themselves British because I don't consider it to invalidate their Irishness. Similarly, if the south were to rejoin the UK it wouldn't mean that I would be British, or stop being Irish.

There are no cookie-cutter Irishmen; Irishness is made up of a mosaic of influences as far as I'm concerned and we should attemt to embrace (or at least respect) these differences rather that beat each other up over them.

Never a truer word said.

You Sir, are a proper United Irelander.;)
27/10/2006, 5:40 PM
crc

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Did you hear the joke about the guy born in England, says he's Irish, and tells a boy born in Belfast that he's not Irish?

:D :D :(
27/10/2006, 5:41 PM
Merc67

Quote:

Originally Posted by crc

There are no cookie-cutter Irishmen; Irishness is made up of a mosaic of influences as far as I'm concerned and we should attemt to embrace (or at least respect) these differences

what use is an 'irish identity' that wishes to be below another nation?? have these people no fecking pride? even the canadians and aussies eventually copped on and changed anthems etc... its an embarrassment, whatever country it happens in.
27/10/2006, 5:43 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by galwayhoop

wake up. cop on. you cannot be british and irish - end of discussion.

And there you have it folks - and we all lived happily ever after.:(
27/10/2006, 5:45 PM
Not Brazil

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merc67

what use is an 'irish identity' that wishes to be below another nation?? have these people no fecking pride? even the canadians and aussies eventually copped on and changed anthems etc... its an embarrassment, whatever country it happens in.

Ahh - the joys of a Union.:)

Lost on poor Merc67.
27/10/2006, 8:14 PM
lopez

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Pathetically trying to link my identity with those of Nazis. Disgusting slur, showing a complete ignorance of history and my hertitage. Grow up and wise up..

Ahhh, diddums. Did I hurt your feelings there by comparing you with those naughty nazis. :( The comparison is simple: You claim heritage of one country. You support the occupation of it by another. Oswald Mosely, Vidkung Quisling, Marshal Petain et al all claimed to be from one country and helped/would have helped in the occupation of their country by another. Now there's a history lesson for you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Err...no, they wont.

Er yes they can and will, as it is the British government who hands out passports. Can third generation unionists in the Republic get British citizenship? One of the most laughable, if it weren't so disgusting, sights I've seen was a Zimbabwean on Breakfast TV a couple of years ago with four English grandparents, claiming asylum in this country because of his sexuality, being told he's facing deportation back to Zim. Just one thing that needs to be addressed by the British community entering a United Ireland.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not Brazil

EG,

Did you hear the joke about the guy born in England, says he's Irish, and tells a boy born in Belfast that he's not Irish?

Someone with a just a British passport, Irish. LOL :D Not Brazil, do you think if you were born in a stable you'd be a horse? Even if 400 years of ancestors were born in stables as well. OK: I know how sad it makes you feel that I've rejected the lottery ticket of life. Tell you what, despite never having a British passport, I'm told I can still get one. Ask one of your Donegal mates that maybe for performing a blow job on me, they can have mine. That really is as much as it's worth. :D

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