20 Teams, 2 Divisions, 1 National League

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

What in particular about the side that's finished bottom of the First Division in each of their two seasons to date makes them the way forward for most teams?

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It does take time, but Kerry FC have a great structure developing players that feed into the senior team.
Maybe Wexford is another club to highlight, that has grown over the years. It's more about sustaining a club in the community.
I think Wexford have achieved that now and Kerry will be trying to follow a similar path.
If you ask most supporters down in the Kerry area, they are happy to have entered the league system, created a Friday night experience and will follow and support the club as it offers the best way forward for the Kerry football league system.

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Originally Posted by nr637

It does take time, but Kerry FC have a great structure developing players that feed into the senior team.

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Probably worth doing less of that if it keeps them rooted to the bottom of the table. They do appear to have cast the net further afield in terms of player recruitment for this year though to be fair

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Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract

Probably worth doing less of that if it keeps them rooted to the bottom of the table. They do appear to have cast the net further afield in terms of player recruitment for this year though to be fair

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I think in time Kerry FC will surprise a lot of clubs in the First Division. It's also a great new away day for fans which is also part of why the league is becoming so popular!

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Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract

Probably worth doing less of that if it keeps them rooted to the bottom of the table. They do appear to have cast the net further afield in terms of player recruitment for this year though to be fair

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Plenty of teams in the past have come in, made bright sounds, finished bottom too often, and vanished. Kildare, Monaghan, Kilkenny, Thurles, Fingal and more.

Tbh I see Kerry as an example of what's broken about the LoI. Promoted when they weren't ready, uncompetitive for two years, saved by there being no relegation, and losing their early momentum while at it

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Plenty of teams in the past have come in, made bright sounds, finished bottom too often, and vanished. Kildare, Monaghan, Kilkenny, Thurles, Fingal and more.

Tbh I see Kerry as an example of what's broken about the LoI. Promoted when they weren't ready, uncompetitive for two years, saved by there being no relegation, and losing their early momentum while at it

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I don't think that's a fair assessment as Kerry FC have done brilliantly by marketing the team to the county of Kerry rather being considered as a Tralee team.
Monaghan, Kildare, even Thurles Town failed during a time when the league was deeply sick an unorganised.
As far as considering more Dublin based clubs, I always think when I see Swords, Lucan or Fingal areas being suggested for a new LOI spot, it doesn't really have an identity in the same way as Mayo FC or Kerry FC does.
I don't think the East Coast has the need for another footballing side. The formula has already been tried with Sporting Fingal and Dublin City.


In an ideal situation the major town in each county should have a team, although that's not being realistic. Personally, I would love to see: navan, kildare county, kilkenny city, a tipperary team, Ennis, portlaoise, tullamore town, cavan-monaghan as future potential LOI clubs.

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Originally Posted by nr637

As far as considering more Dublin based clubs, I always think when I see Swords, Lucan or Fingal areas being suggested for a new LOI spot, it doesn't really have an identity in the same way as Mayo FC or Kerry FC does.

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Outside of the "identity" issue a lot of those places are well served by LOI clubs already. Lucan for example you can get the bus to tallaght, inchicore is just down the road and even Bohs is quite easy to get to if you drive (I know because I do it weekly). Dublin is a well populated area but it's also quite small when you actually look at it in comparison to other cities around the world. Then you also have the existing junior clubs in the area. If people from the wider Dublin area don't support an existing LOI team or one of their local junior teams I don't know that they're going to be interested in supporting a new LOI team.

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Originally Posted by nr637

I don't think that's a fair assessment as Kerry FC have done brilliantly by marketing the team to the county of Kerry rather being considered as a Tralee team.
Monaghan, Kildare, even Thurles Town failed during a time when the league was deeply sick an unorganised.
As far as considering more Dublin based clubs, I always think when I see Swords, Lucan or Fingal areas being suggested for a new LOI spot, it doesn't really have an identity in the same way as Mayo FC or Kerry FC does.
I don't think the East Coast has the need for another footballing side. The formula has already been tried with Sporting Fingal and Dublin City.


In an ideal situation the major town in each county should have a team, although that's not being realistic. Personally, I would love to see: navan, kildare county, kilkenny city, a tipperary team, Ennis, portlaoise, tullamore town, cavan-monaghan as future potential LOI clubs.

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Tbh with Kerry FC having recruited I think a coach from Galway Utd I think they are the team to follow imo.

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Originally Posted by nr637

I don't think that's a fair assessment as Kerry FC have done brilliantly by marketing the team to the county of Kerry rather being considered as a Tralee team.
Monaghan, Kildare, even Thurles Town failed during a time when the league was deeply sick an unorganised.
As far as considering more Dublin based clubs, I always think when I see Swords, Lucan or Fingal areas being suggested for a new LOI spot, it doesn't really have an identity in the same way as Mayo FC or Kerry FC does.
I don't think the East Coast has the need for another footballing side. The formula has already been tried with Sporting Fingal and Dublin City.

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Marketing is all well and good, but it doesn't put the ball in the net. This idea that "I don't think the east coast has the need for another football side" is based on nothing. If that's where the population is and that's where the players are and a team comes along and earns promotion on the pitch - well then why not? Better than another west coast side being rooted to the bottom of the First Division for a few seasons.

(And I think both those are the opposite end of the same extreme FWIW. I just don't see how you can single Kerry out as the way forward for most clubs)

All rather fourpence looking down on tuppence, Stu?

Maybe if I were claiming UCD were the way forward for new clubs it would be, yeah.

Kerry did over double their points tally in a season and came pretty close to not coming last and didn't have the lowest attendance in the league, pretty decent for 2 seasons work imo. The difference between them and other clubs who went by the wayside is the underage league system that now exists, that's where you get your community and how clubs survive long enough to grow IMO, Kerry are doing just fine.

Edit: I'm discarding whatever the hell went on in the Bray/Cabo schemozzle, which I will never understand, and definitely indicative of the sort of stuff we need to avoid.

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Originally Posted by nr637

In an ideal situation the major town in each county should have a team, although that's not being realistic. Personally, I would love to see: navan, kildare county, kilkenny city, a tipperary team, Ennis, portlaoise, tullamore town, cavan-monaghan as future potential LOI clubs.

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You are right, Kerry have done well, they have put a level of football accompanied by an improved coaching environment, and a pathway if you become good enough into national underage sides and the pro game, into an area of the country where that wasn't so, no matter how potentially good a youngster might be.

That's why I agree with you on geographical spread also, that network of combined standard of coaching hopefully, by the FAI opening up that pathway to all areas, if a youngster has a chance, its not there at the moment, it has never been there. Not for all. Most interesting about this is that nationwide reach part for me, where these clubs are, and beginning to harness our pool of potential talent fully in time.

Where these clubs finish in these leagues hardly matters, its level three of an after thought game on the Irish sporting landscape anyway. What matters is they continue to exist and improve coaching available everywhere possible. We've a small enough population as it is, every potential professional player counts. This has to be subsidised if necessary even.

Or, we can keep hoping lads with one or two Irish grandparents give up on playing for England and make a pragmatic second choice career move.

Can't believe the Kerry negativity....they've been getting better all the time over 2 short years. No old LOI warhorses shipped in to ease the landing just local and other new talent. At their best they play really slick football. And solid fan base already...

All as may be, but that's enough to single them out as an example for other new clubs. Kildare were similar when they started out and they even got to a Cup final in their first few weeks..

If the third tier ever gets off the ground then it'll be immediate relegation and budget cuts for a team that follows Kerry's example.

I've a soft spot for the club given I'm originally from Kerry, but let's not hold them up as a model for most new clubs to follow.

Kerry have done well no doubt but they have also been able to garner some significant outside investment that's not guaranteed for that level for any new club,absolutely nothing wrong with outside investment either but just feel it's important to point out....

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

All as may be, but that's enough to single them out as an example for other new clubs. Kildare were similar when they started out and they even got to a Cup final in their first few weeks..

If the third tier ever gets off the ground then it'll be immediate relegation and budget cuts for a team that follows Kerry's example.

I've a soft spot for the club given I'm originally from Kerry, but let's not hold them up as a model for most new clubs to follow.

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I always knew there was something off about you... :)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

All as may be, but that's enough to single them out as an example for other new clubs. Kildare were similar when they started out and they even got to a Cup final in their first few weeks..

If the third tier ever gets off the ground then it'll be immediate relegation and budget cuts for a team that follows Kerry's example.

I've a soft spot for the club given I'm originally from Kerry, but let's not hold them up as a model for most new clubs to follow.

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That brings up the whole question of whether the short-term goal of a new club should be to bring in as many outsiders as possible in immediate pursuit of the play-offs, with no guarantee of success in any event, or to offer a platform for local players to pursue a senior soccer career. Now, you might reply that only Gaxha and Williams have benefited from that springboard so far, but Kelliher would have had his pick of offers had he wanted to move on, and Sean O'Connell is also certainly capable of playing at a higher level. I'll be delighted if the new arrivals work out this term, and extra experience was undoubtedly needed, but as with any window, the jury remains out for now.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

All as may be, but that's enough to single them out as an example for other new clubs. Kildare were similar when they started out and they even got to a Cup final in their first few weeks..

If the third tier ever gets off the ground then it'll be immediate relegation and budget cuts for a team that follows Kerry's example.

I've a soft spot for the club given I'm originally from Kerry, but let's not hold them up as a model for most new clubs to follow.

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There are also plenty of LOI clubs who've followed the more traditinal 'been around for years' model who still managed to make a horlicks of their time at senior level. And there'll probably be more of them at risk of relegation over the years than the likes of Kerry. If we'd had a 3rd tier just a couple of season's ago Athlone Town - the country's oldest club - would've gone down.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

All as may be, but that's enough to single them out as an example for other new clubs. Kildare were similar when they started out and they even got to a Cup final in their first few weeks..

If the third tier ever gets off the ground then it'll be immediate relegation and budget cuts for a team that follows Kerry's example.

I've a soft spot for the club given I'm originally from Kerry, but let's not hold them up as a model for most new clubs to follow.

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Why would a new team immediately jump into the first division (2nd tier) if a 2nd division(third tier) exists? Would they not simply go into the 2nd division straight away where they can follow the Kerry model with zero risk of relegation. Admittedly I may be missing something from another post on this thread but to me if you join the league of Ireland you join at the lowest rung not half way up the ladder, or step stool as the case may be

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Originally Posted by Another Bohemia

Why would a new team immediately jump into the first division (2nd tier) if a 2nd division(third tier) exists? Would they not simply go into the 2nd division straight away where they can follow the Kerry model with zero risk of relegation. Admittedly I may be missing something from another post on this thread but to me if you join the league of Ireland you join at the lowest rung not half way up the ladder, or step stool as the case may be

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This is the key point here, that's exactly what would happen. It's worth pointing out that the 3rd tier is where Kerry has planned on operating, but with a space opening up in the 1st division with Cabinteely "merging", and no sign of a 3rd tier at that point they took the brave decision to go for it.

And if they continue to improve season on season for the next few, that decision will be vindicated.

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Originally Posted by nr637

I think the Kerry FC project is the way forward for most teams.
I believe the new Mayo FC model is another interesting project.

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Yes and no. When there was a vacant spot in the First Division, Kerry were next in line. A Third Tier should be a more appropriate level for any progressive club building through the academy leagues.
The one club model seems to suit Kerry and Mayo. Both have history in representative football. Other areas will suit having at least two rival clubs. There is no one size fits all.

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Originally Posted by Another Bohemia

Why would a new team immediately jump into the first division (2nd tier) if a 2nd division(third tier) exists? Would they not simply go into the 2nd division straight away where they can follow the Kerry model with zero risk of relegation. Admittedly I may be missing something from another post on this thread but to me if you join the league of Ireland you join at the lowest rung not half way up the ladder, or step stool as the case may be

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Well my point was more that if they get to the First Division following Kerry's example, then they're going straight back down

And a flip side of that of course may well be that they wouldn't go up in the first place, which again isn't a ringing endorsement for most clubs

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

if we'd had a 3rd tier just a couple of season's ago Athlone Town - the country's oldest club - would've gone down.

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They would - and so what? Why does it matter how old they are if they're a basket case club? And what benefit is it to other First Division clubs having to play a basket case club? (Note - I don't think Kerry are a basket case club. Though clubs that continually hover at the bottom of the division don't really add much in terms of competition/strength)

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Originally Posted by Jamesie

Can't believe the Kerry negativity....they've been getting better all the time over 2 short years.No old LOI warhorses shipped in to ease the landing just local and other new talent. At their best they play really slick football. And solid fan base already...

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Football was played in Kerry before early 2023. The "softly, softly" treatment that they receive is a bit silly.

Their first year they signed plenty of players including old LOI Warhorses, it's just Billy Dennehy couldn't pick his nose not to mind a team.

Last year they had a decent budget that was better than some of the teams around them, they had a player's house(s?) and all. They still came bottom. That's deserving of criticism regardless of the club's age.

They are a good addition to the league and will improve, and hopefully their ground does at some stage too, but they seem to be immune to criticism. Meanwhile if the likes of Longford and Treaty (who didn't have any real time to prepare for their first season) have one bad week people are putting in an order for a headstone.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Well my point was more that if they get to the First Division following Kerry's example, then they're going straight back down

And a flip side of that of course may well be that they wouldn't go up in the first place, which again isn't a ringing endorsement for most clubs

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I think I'm just failing to see your point here. Why is it a bad thing if these clubs take time to get promoted? Or get promoted and then relegated? It's entirely possible that happens to whoever wins the first division this year? It's a possibility for any club. Will it impact attendances, probably, but if the squad is built from local players from the academy & surrounding junior clubs plenty would still support them because they know John or knew his father. It's up to the clubs to build that connection to weather any potential storms.

It's not a bad thing if they take time to get promoted. In fact, I think one of the problems Kerry have is that they were promoted too quickly. They've lost a bit of momentum from being bottom of the First Division two years in a row now.

But the original point was that Kerry in particular were a model for most new clubs to follow, and I don't agree with that. There's nothing particularly unusual about them in the pantheon of new clubs the LoI has seen down the years.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's not a bad thing if they take time to get promoted. In fact, I think one of the problems Kerry have is that they were promoted too quickly. They've lost a bit of momentum from being bottom of the First Division two years in a row now.

But the original point was that Kerry in particular were a model for most new clubs to follow, and I don't agree with that. There's nothing particularly unusual about them in the pantheon of new clubs the LoI has seen down the years.

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I see now. Thanks for the clarification. I suppose I'm viewing Kerry from the point of view of not over extending themselves like Sporting Fingal did. Could they be doing better? 100%. But getting the right people (manager, director of football if that's something they feel they need, commercial people, funding and probably plenty of things I'm missing) in place is easier said than done. I'd much prefer clubs to come in and try to figure it out slowly than them speed running into oblivion.

Certainly, given last year was all about catching up with the bottom of the division (and the second half of the season was a wasted opportunity in that regard in terms of not adequately replacing some key departures), anything other than at least a ninth-placed finish this season will be seen very much as an underachievement, given the new investment in the club. How much further than that we should be progressing, I'll leave to the rest of the division to analyse.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

But the original point was that Kerry in particular were a model for most new clubs to follow, and I don't agree with that. There's nothing particularly unusual about them in the pantheon of new clubs the LoI has seen down the years.

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Firstly I agree clubs should be earning promotion to the First Division. Kerry can't do anything about that.
I would say Kerry are different in that they put in the hard yards with the academy leagues and were next in line when a spot was vacant.
Putting in the hard yards at academy level is a good model for potential clubs. Clubs entering at an appropriate level is for the FAI to sort out.
There wasn't a lot between Longford and Kerry last year. Kerry made the Munster Senior Cup final and too Bohemians to penalties. There are positives. Kerry haven't come into the league as if they are the greatest thing since sliced bread and Kerry's respect for the league and other clubs seems positive.

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Originally Posted by legendz

Firstly I agree clubs should be earning promotion to the First Division. Kerry can't do anything about that.
I would say Kerry are different in that they put in the hard yards with the academy leagues and were next in line when a spot was vacant.
Putting in the hard yards at academy level is a good model for potential clubs. Clubs entering at an appropriate level is for the FAI to sort out.
There wasn't a lot between Longford and Kerry last year. Kerry made the Munster Senior Cup final and too Bohemians to penalties. There are positives. Kerry haven't come into the league as if they are the greatest thing since sliced bread and Kerry's respect for the league and other clubs seems positive.

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Great Post! :)

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

They would - and so what? Why does it matter how old they are if they're a basket case club? And what benefit is it to other First Division clubs having to play a basket case club? (Note - I don't think Kerry are a basket case club. Though clubs that continually hover at the bottom of the division don't really add much in terms of competition/strength)

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But you're just reinforcing my point here. You singled out Kerry as a flawed model which would only result in failure/relegation. So I responded by pointing out that the 'been aound for years as a proper club' model is just as likely to produce a bottom-of-table team as the new entry system is. Which you seem to agree with me on. Being a longstanding established club is no guarantee of survival in our senior game/top 2 tiers either.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

But you're just reinforcing my point here. You singled out Kerry as a flawed model which would only result in failure/relegation. So I responded by pointing out that the 'been aound for years as a proper club' model is just as likely to produce a bottom-of-table team as the new entry system is. Which you seem to agree with me on. Being a longstanding established club is no guarantee of survival in our senior game/top 2 tiers either.

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Currently that flawed model could be pointed at Dundalk currently and Cork City in recent times as both clubs were challenging each other at the top during the mid 2000's period!

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

You singled out Kerry as a flawed model which would only result in failure/relegation.

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No I didn't. I disagreed with the comment "I think the Kerry FC project is the way forward for most teams". Big difference.

I disagreed with the comment by noting that they're bottom of the First two years in a row, have seen their crowds halve in that time, and are really following similar lines trodden by the likes of Kildare, Cabo and others.

But that's not the same as singling them out as a "flawed model which would only result in failure/relegation". I never said that.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

No I didn't. I disagreed with the comment "I think the Kerry FC project is the way forward for most teams". Big difference.

I disagreed with the comment by noting that they're bottom of the First two years in a row, have seen their crowds halve in that time, and are really following similar lines trodden by the likes of Kildare, Cabo and others.

But that's not the same as singling them out as a "flawed model which would only result in failure/relegation". I never said that.

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I agree, I believe the Kerry FC model is all about the infrastructure of the club which is based on the development of players. Joining the League has only created a new level for players to reach.

The likes of Mayo, CK United and Kildare should be able to compete at a level where players who've graduated from the academy leagues can still compete within some level of LoI pathway.
It seems like a weak foundation for the mooted Third Tier to be relying on clubs who have not previously committed to the academy leagues.

I think the problem with the invitation set-up we currently have is best shown in a possible situation in Kildare, where if you can only have one from the area, which one do you choose? You have:

Maynooth Uni Town, that has been successful enough intermediate team that is joined up with the university for scholarships, and a big club membership with underage playing in the DDSL, but no facilities, and is closer to Dublin than to the rest of the county.

Klub Kildare, with the underage LOI teams based in Naas, but no history of mens football and dont seem to have much facilities, and little traction locally.

Newbridge Town, which ran an LOI team (Kildare County) and have an LOI stadium, but dont seem to have the benefits of the other two.

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

I think the problem with the invitation set-up we currently have is best shown in a possible situation in Kildare, where if you can only have one from the area, which one do you choose? You have:

Maynooth Uni Town, that has been successful enough intermediate team that is joined up with the university for scholarships, and a big club membership with underage playing in the DDSL, but no facilities, and is closer to Dublin than to the rest of the county.

Klub Kildare, with the underage LOI teams based in Naas, but no history of mens football and dont seem to have much facilities, and little traction locally.

Newbridge Town, which ran an LOI team (Kildare County) and have an LOI stadium, but dont seem to have the benefits of the other two.

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Simple. The FAI approach would have been to pick the club who's Chairman had the biggest dent on his chin from John Delaney's testicles.

The suggested National League sounds more like a potential Fourth Tier! Seems a backward step to invite clubs who have not built their academy structures. Maybe that will be part of the licencing for promotion to the First Division.
Progressive first teams with academy structures and progressive second teams e.g. Shamrock Rovers could potentially suit a Second Division.

Is there any hunger for CK United to split?

Seems like such a weird marriage for an outsider. Both Carlow and Kilkenny are bigger towns than Sligo, different counties and not that close to each other. Both towns have an ex LOI team (Kilkenny City and FC Carlow) too.

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Originally Posted by Kiki Balboa

Is there any hunger for CK United to split?

Seems like such a weird marriage for an outsider. Both Carlow and Kilkenny are bigger towns than Sligo, different counties and not that close to each other. Both towns have an ex LOI team (Kilkenny City and FC Carlow) too.

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And most strange that they're not even going to be based in either of the large towns mentioned. They're going to be based in Tullow, which is smaller than Ballybofey, and is nearly 50km from Kilkenny.

The whole project is odd as f*ck really.