He is Ireland greatest player just not a very nice person
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He is Ireland greatest player just not a very nice person
That’s quite a claim. Personally I’d rate Giles and Brady ahead of him in terms of players that I have seen in my time as an Ireland supporter. McGrath would also have a legitimate claim to that title. Keane’s personality and leadership ability stand out. but as a footballer on a purely technical level I’m not convinced he’s our greatest ever player. Back in the day Bryan Robson was raved about as a player and was in many ways similar to Keane, but I’d have always rated Hoddle ahead of him although Robson got more England caps when they were competing for selection. Did Keane ever take your breath away with a piece of sublime skill? He was the supreme artisan, but never an artist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
Agree, 3rd P. From my observations, the conversation has to include McGrath and Brady and, for me, Robbie Keane is a shoe-in for consideration too and, objectively, probably has the best claim for the title. I never got to see Giles in action so i cant really evaluate him... If i was forced to rank...
1. Robbie
2. McGrath (my personal favourite)
3. Roy
4. Brady
Wow....I wouldn't have Robbie anywhere near the top myself. I'm the same in that I missed Giles but also Brady.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
It'd be:
1. Roy
2. McGrath
3. Keane
4. Duff
Don't get me wrong, Robbie was gifted but he wasn't close to Roy's level at any stage in his career. I'd have Duff very close to Robbie and a big gap between Robbie and McGrath. I'd argue that Duff even did his stuff at a higher level than Robbie but when their careers and relative impact for Ireland are taken into account Robbie edges it.
On Roy's technical chops, you don't become a central midfielder for the best team of your time without technical ability. Discounting that because he didn't throw in a rabona or two seems a bit silly to me. His first touch was fantastic. He took the ball in whatever space he had and rarely lost it. His passing was very underrated. Again he rarely lost it but he also made brave passes forward to break lines. It's easy to take no risks and keep the ball but Keane made sure his passing moved the team into more dangerous positions. He was a good finisher as well. 51 odd goals in 471 games for Man U. Obviously his reading of the game was second to none. He covered every blade of grass without ever seeming to hurt his team's shape or be out of position. You could even look at his transition through different playing positions through his career as evidence he was a very technically astute footballer. The medal count doesn't lie.
I know that Robbie Keane is a sometimes controversial pick around here (and definitely doesnt get the love he deserves) but you have to look at the statistics when breaking this down...
- underage tournament wins
- record caps holder for us, 68 goals - pretty much a goal every other game
- top irish goal scorer in the WC02, top Irish WC goal scorer all time
- top 5 european international goal scorer of all time
- top 15 premier league goal scorer of all time
- a whole bunch of individual awards and team trophies/honours
In short, he brought a lot of joy to us as fans. Some of our best moments involved him hitting the net. Someone who we could be really proud of too as a person and pro. I get that he is not everyone's choice (though i never really understood why) but he really does have a strong case just on the numbers alone.
If i was being strict to my own critieria around statistics, you'd have to take Roys honours list at the club level into account and that would likely place him higher than McGrath when you take all the data points into account. But i just love McGrath, I was in awe of him.
edit: in reading your post again, i suppose a big part of the evaluation is how much weight you place on the players role, stats and performances with Ireland vs. how much you take club role, stats and performances into it.
Robbie Keane is the most under appreciated sports star we've ever had!
- underage tournament wins
> hmmm......not sure I'd count this. Lot's of players do well underage.
- record caps holder for us, 68 goals - pretty much a goal every other game
- top irish goal scorer in the WC02, top Irish WC goal scorer all time
- top 5 european international goal scorer of all time
- top 15 premier league goal scorer of all time
>scoring goals was his job though. I'm not saying he wasn't the best we've ever had at his job, but was he better at his job than Keane or McGrath were at theirs? I don't think so but I can see why you'd say he was. He was superb with Berbatov for a few years but outside of that did he ever really get close to world class levels?
- a whole bunch of individual awards and team trophies/honours
> League Cup?
I think he gets a bit of a bad rep as well to be fair. He was brilliant for us. The contractual stuff now is unfortunate but even when he was playing people were often on his back. Never understood it myself. He was by far and away the best striker I've seen for Ireland. But Roy was on a different level altogether for me.
At the end of the day, these lists are always (and rightfully) filtered with a healthy dose of subjectivity so my comments aren't designed to try and convince you (or anyone) to change minds. And I am not here to build a case for Robbie above all else but... I think you are being unfair to dismiss his underage honours with us - and the Celtic Nations cup win too :D - especially in an international context. As well as dismissing his individual honours which are noteworthy and his trophies/medals when you look at his time with LA Galaxy where he is a bona-fide legend among the fans there.
The world class comment requires some level of definition... I think 148 caps, 68 goals and joint 6th UEFA goal scorer of all time (in addition to everything else) surely puts that to bed?
Razors post says all that needs to be said.
Let me add a little more fuel to the fire... if Roy had shown up in 2002, there's more than a fair chance he would be #1 or #2 in my list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Not touching that. :D
I'm really pedantic when it comes to calling players world class but him being the joint 6th UEFA scorer of all time is pretty compelling to be fair. I think you have to take into account the opposition when looking at international records but to be joint 6th is phenomenal regardless. Thanks for sharing that. I wasn't aware.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Either way, Robbie's great and I'd agree he is underrated by a large chunk of Irish football supporters.
He was higher when he retired as well, I guess joint 4th with Gerd Muller. And was then overtaken by Ronaldo and Lewandowski
As for greatest irish player:
1. Giles
2. Brady
3. Roy
4. McGrath
5. Robbie
I think I’ve seen enough video of Giles and Brady to make that call
Why stop at the top 5!
..................Given
Finnan, McGrath, Dunne, Irwin
................Roy
............Brady Giles
..Hoolahan..............Duff
...............Robbie
Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
...........Given..........
Coleman McGrath Lawrenson Irwin
.....Whelan Giles Brady
Robbie Stapleton Heighway
Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
You including Whelan over Keane might be even odder than me including Hoolahan!
That’d be pretty much my team except Dave O’Leary instead of Dunne, as much as I love Richie. I’ve watched full games on video with a young O’Leary and it’s genuinely the closest thing I’ve ever seen to Virgil Van Dijk. His speed, his strength, his composure and his passing, just phenomenal - genuinely world class.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
I suspect people a decade or two older than me might have Ray Houghton or Ronnie Whelan ahead of Duff or Wes, but for me, Wes is the best pure footballer I’ve seen live playing for ireland. He was the best player we had in euro 2016 and he was 34. Trap ignoring him was insane. He was Norwich best player, playing 37 games during 2011-12 (33 in the premier league) and he didn’t make the ireland squad for euro 2012, in fact he had never been called up by Trap at that stage, despite his outstanding performances in the championship and the premier league. The fact he was 30 when trap finally gave him a game and he received his second cap, just insane (he got a single cap off the bench just after trap arrived). He really should have been a guy who got 100 caps - he got 42 caps in his 30s. Trap basically didn’t want footballers and retrospectively it was very much to our detriment
Any best ever Ireland team that doesn't include Roy Keane is simply nonsense. Whatever your feelings about him personally it's completely indisputable that he's one of greatest everQuote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
I like your selection. Giles and Brady were undoubtedly world class. Roy just about, when the planets aligned. McGrath very close. But I'm disappointed with some posts about Robbie. A few fans' memories seem compromised by more recent headlines and prejudices - the pay-for-nothing FAI job, the lifestyle, showbiz missus, twitter gibberish etc. To exclude him from our top six players is puerile. All those goals and memories lost to petty cancel-culture.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
None of that stuff should come into the equation. I wouldn't be too supportive of his stance on the FAI contract but anyone using that to say he isn't one of our best players ever is being unfair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapshot
You do, but everybody on the list filled their boots against weak opposition. Maybe there were fewer minnows back in Muller's day alright.Quote:
Originally Posted by ontheotherhand
Judge for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...rd_M%C3%BCllerQuote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
His 68 goals includes five against both Albania and Cyprus, four against Switzerland
A quick review of Ronaldo's 115 goals for Portugal suggest that probably 55 of them were against the teams considered weaker opposition (defined by my trusted method of "yeah they're a bit crap").Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Yeah completely fair. I think there is a narrative around Robbie that he only did it against the lesser nations which is probably unfair. Maybe people remember the hattricks or all the goals against the Faroes but when you look down the list of countries he scored against he covered the bases well. Maybe he dropped off a bit towards the end and that skews people's memories. From 2011 to 2016 the only "good" side he scored against was Sweden. Either way, he was still the one scoring the goals and nobody else comes close for Ireland.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...y_Robbie_Keane
It was levelled at him long before 2011. I never bought it: no one scores that often against the good sides. That's why they're good.
He scored against all the world best
Germany
Spain
Italy
Holland ( 2000 imo Ireland greatest ever goal) it was an amazing team effort away to the Dutch
Ronaldo should equal Keane's record of scoring at least one international goal in 19 consecutive years this year. However, he's nowhere near Keane's record of scoring a goal in competitive internationals in 18 consecutive years - he only scored one goal in 2009, in a friendly against Finland
and...Quote:
Originally Posted by Diggs246
france
holland again
yugoslavia
play offs v iran and turkey
croatia
russia
sweden
3 2002 wc finals goals.....
This is interesting, an interview with the BBC reporter who got a few words from Keane in the airport in Saipan
https://www.the42.ie/roy-keane-inter...68341-May2022/
All tip and no iceberg. About 1000 words to ham up seven. John le Carré he ain't.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
What does Saipan mean to the next generation of Irish footballers?
https://www.the42.ie/saipan-roy-keane-5770945-May2022/
"Honestly, no. I’d never heard about it. I know Roy Keane. He is the aggressive, angry guy."
Not the legendary midfielder who won everything at club level, not the national hero who dragged us to a tournament through a group of death, but the angry guy. Old Roy must be proud of his legacy there.
Not surprising that it's the three foreign guys who'd never heard of it in fairness. You can see the story being passed down the generations in everyone else, but Romanians/Nigerians 20 years ago wouldn't have been as bothered, and it shows in the answers.
Abankwah was born in 2004, Keane retired in 2006. He probably doesn't even remember him managing Sunderland or his time in charge of Ipswich.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
For that generation, and all the ones following it, he's going to be the "aggressive, angry guy" on Sky Sports
It's the same way people have formed their opinions on analysts that they never saw play - Souness, Giles, etc,
Mmmm, remarkable parallels to what Keane said to McCarthy.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Not really? There's a very clear divide in that article between the guys who said "Yeah, my dad told me all about it and I heard this that and the other" and the guys who said "Don't know anything about it really". I think it's understandable too, so I don't share John83's surprise* at Keane being labelled the "angry guy"
* - he might be just bemused rather than surprised of course.
I think the reference to “foreign guys” is probably not the best way of putting as they are all Irish. They are all from immigrant families snd it’s a fair point that their parents may be less aware / engaged in Irish football history. But in the context of this issue and the insinuations about genuine Irishness in Keane’s alleged comments, it’s a wee bit on the inappropriate/ clumsy side to describe any Irish footballers as being “foreign”Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Just taking the opportunity to scoff at him, really.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I didn't realise the FAI media guy released a statement that had only been authorised for release under certain circumstances. What a effing tool.
Saipan opened the door to Delaney and his disastrous tenure, and broke a special bond between fans and the MNT. The EPL had already become a threat to the team's popularity but as long as the team was doing well it was very high up in most people's affections and interest, but many Man U and other fans turned on the Irish team after that. That this coincided with the start of the IRFU teams' successful period really harmed the status of the MNT and I think it's only now starting to recover.
The main criticism levelled against Mick, and the FAI, was the lack of preparation. Supporters of Keane pointed out the control that Ferguson had on all aspects of the setup at United, and that nothing was left to chance. There's long passages of Keane's first autobiography that cover prematch meals, or the lack thereof. Was Harry's Challenge to blame for the performance against Austria in 1995? Or was it an aging side who were run ragged at the end of the season? Keane mentioned in the book that McCarthy met him before the start of the 2002 qualifiers to discuss aspects of the preparation like this, but before the first qualifier away to the Netherlands, there was no pasta available for the team in the hotel, and he let the manager know exactly what he thought about this. Keane went back to his room and ordered a pizza IIRC.
Professionalism had come into rugby in 1995, and the benefits of it were starting to show for the provincial sides - Ulster won the Heineken Cup in 1999, Munster reached the final in 2000 and 2002 - and the emergence of players like O'Gara, and O'Driscoll in the national side had led to increased coverage of the game. The national team itself had gone from never finishing higher than fourth in the five nations in the 90's to missing out on the Six Nations to England on points difference in 2001. The Celtic Tiger was starting to roar, and GAA sides like Kilkenny, Cork and Tipperary's hurling teams were likewise lauded for their professional approach to an amateur sport. One of the common quotes on this was something like "the GAA are an amateur organisation operating at a professional level, the FAI are a professional organisation operating at an amateur level"
When Kerr was appointed, one of the points about his managerial style that was repeatedly brought up was his attention to detail in preparation for a game - there was a story about how he had a fleet of cars follow the team bus at St Pats in case it broke down, which it did before a game - and that appointing him manager would mean that a situation like Saipan would never occur again.