Maybe some of our players are better than they appeared to be when playing under Kenny?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
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Maybe some of our players are better than they appeared to be when playing under Kenny?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
We can certainly hope so!
That's probably the biggest frustration of the last few years for me, the almost non-stop talking down of the standard of players we have. We all know we don't have the same level of players we had in the late 80s and early 90s, but we're nowhere near as bad as we're being made out to be in some quarters.
In fairness, I think most of the time people have been too guilty of talking fairly average players up to be honest.
I think there's a bit of both - a bad habit of talking up every 16 year old who gets a run out in the league of Ireland and every 18 year old who gets a few garbage minutes in the Premier League. But then it seems to jump the other way by the time lads are 23 and aren't the next Kevin De Bruyne or Virgil Van Dijk, lads are getting written off far too soon.
I don't see talking up. I see excitement and optimism/hope which are both the exact emotions every football fan lives for. If you don't get that, then you're probably best off with some other pastime (and possibly also no fun at parties).
In Smallbone's case, probably not.
But let's be honest - there's been plenty of players on here who've been talked up way beyond what's reasonable. There's optimism/hope and there's just being daft, and too often it swings the wrong way.
The reality is that a lot of the players from the 80s and even the 90s would be playing at a lower level in England today if they were still around - given the massive money and level of competition for top players in the PL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Lovely assist for Smallbone as Southampton go one up on Leeds in playoff final.
He's playing well again, things seemed to click for him during his loan to Stoke last season and he's been playing really well for about 18 months now at Championship level. Offers a really useful set piece option from an Irish point of view as well.
A long way to go in this, Southampton's goal came against the run of play at the time, though they've finished the half strongly. Would be great to see Smallbone back in the Premier League next year, he may have options to go up even if Southampton don't win today.
And he's up. Congrats Smallbone. Will be a good player for us when things settle down.
My gut feeling was that Leeds would be winning this ~ ~ Better for us that Southampton have gone up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Southampton promotion definitely the best outcome for us from the playoffs, in that we have a real shortage of midfielders playing top level football and Smallbone is likely good enough and important enough to Southampton to stay heavily involved for them in the Premier League, even if he's not a nailed on starter every week.
It may not be as positive an outcome for Bazunu or Manning but Southampton are a club that usually have a few Irish players involved so it's good to see them going straight back up. An almost complete absence of Irish players at Leeds these days so it was very easy to support Southampton today.
Really came good at the business end of the season. Will be a tough year next year but it's where you want to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Suspect Manning might find himself sent out on loan unfortunately. 30 starts but it felt like he was drifting out of favour towards the end of the season. Could be wrong about that though
Unless Martin changes his approach to defending Southampton will be torn apart in the PL.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
It's going to depend on how well they recruit in the summer. Leicester look the best positioned of the three promoted teams at this point, but that can change. Ipswich without McKenna will be everyone's favourites to go down. Southampton previously have shown an ability to finish mid table despite shipping a few heavy beatings during a season. If they can bring in three or four quality players they might have a chance.
I think Southampton's biggest issue is that they try to dominate possession against teams, a bit Man City-like. They can do it very well at times, and they're one team you wouldn't write off from 2-0 or 3-1 down - but it's a big step up to trying the same thing in the Premier. It'll be Russell Martin's debut Premier League season and he may need to be more pragmatic.
Leicester may yet have a points deduction to contend with for breaching FFP rules and also have to replace Vardy, who was their top scorer this season with 20 but probably his legs are gone at Premier level; only three league goals last year was a big part of their struggles. Ipswich - well anyone getting two promotions in a row has to be early relegation favourites.
Wouldn't surprise me to see the three promoted teams adrift like this year's were, but football can be strange. And of course if they all go straight back down but our guys get a move out of it, that's a result too.
The problem that they have is that four loan players were key to their success this season, Downes, Harwood-Balles, Fraser and Brooks, plus they are losing Che Adams who scored 16 goals to free agency and Bazunu is out for months - that is six key players that they have to replace before they can think about upgrading. Now some of those they bring in might be an upgrade over some players from this season - but they need more than a minor upgrade in my opinion. They will need more than 3/4 quality players to survive - and quality players do not like signing for teams that have just been promoted, because they know they can go straight back down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Southampton will not be able to dominate possession as they did in the Championship - in a lot of games they will struggle to hold the ball.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The gap between the PL and the Championship is massive and is growing all the time. IMO a promoted team surviving in the PL for a couple of seasons will become a major rarity. The reality is that the PL will become more like American sports with the existing PL teams will not really have to worry about relegation unless they compelely f*ck things up.
Is it just me or is the general tone of everything on this forum lately just misery. There's been a bit of success by a few players towards the end of the season but everything is discussed in a negative way.
Smallbone has very good season and is instrumental in them getting through playoffs. Instantly the talk is "they won't make it in Premiership"
Idah gets winner in cup final and the chat is about him only getting 15 mins a game.
Szmodics top goalscorer in league, gets linked to move to Galatasary and the reaction is negative to a super potential move, because it's not the Premiership.
There's others too. Every thread is misery. Some of ye need to find a bit of joy in yer lives lads ffs
It's just you.
After all, why not mention the reaction to Sammie's other potential suitor, a Premier League club only up the road which seems to suit his family considerations much better? Or the suggestion that even if clubs go down, it doesn't matter so long as our players can get some good out of it? Or how often it's been said Idah's loan has worked out well for him in general (a loan you didn't even want him to go on)?
I think the views have been reasonably balanced tbh.
So basically you're saying how we evaluate our players success is not a black or white thing?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I actually think the player pool is currently looking the strongest it has been for five years at least. Maybe longer than that. We've even got a few decent looking centre mids, albeit it's still our weakest area.
I think everything is clouded by the manager situation though. Six months worth of friendly games have been wasted and there's little confidence that there will be a satisfactory appointment at the end of it.
If we had made a positive managerial appointment by now I think everyone would be looking forward to the Nations League with a lot more hope than we currently are.
So you know what's best for his family now?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Maybe I'm not Nordic enough to understand the complexities of the thoughts on the threadsQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
There's a Cathy Newman leap.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I said "which seems to suit his family considerations" on an internet message board. Sammie's family considerations have clearly been important to him this past while. It seems a reasonable supposition to put out in a general discussion, especially in the context of a reasonable Premier League side showing interest too
Not everything needs to be taken as definitively insider-knowledge statements.
For all you know his family might love to move to another country and try something different. Not being able to turn up for an international because his Mrs was pregnant is a long way from not wanting a transfer to a different country.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
At his age this is his one chance to get a big money contract that could set him up for the rest of his life.
He'd probably prefer a big money contract that's actually likely to be fulfilled all the same.
https://fifpro.org/en/supporting-pla...even-countries
Those countries should be banned from international football
Yeah, my point is that money could play a big factor in where goes given that he wouldn't have made huge money to this point of his careerQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Nobody wants to go full Kathy Newman, shark / lobster jumping ! !Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Excellent suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Buckett
He might well do. And that's how discussion works, especially on an internet forum where really none of us are close enough to actually know. Not calling people negative because they have a different view to yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Which shows that that bringing his family into the discussion is stupid in the first place. Its an internet forum where we have no clue what his family situation is and its none of our business.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Not really. It's a discussion forum. We chat about things. Criticising people for thinking Everton might be a better move than Galatasaray seems quite excessive
I wasnt criticizing anyone for thinking that Everton would be better, my point was that instantly Galatasaray was being dismissed as a bad move and there is too often an idea that anything outside of the Premiership, or even English football in general is bad. Other football countries that are much better than ours have players playing through leagues across Europe that would be dismissed as L1 quality by some lads on here. Everything seems to be weighed against English footballQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Well fair enough - looking back at the thread I do disagree with Eirambler's suggestion that he'd be absolutely mad to try the move to Turkey. Though I do think Sammie's family situation would weigh against it, and as an alternative, Everton would be absolutely fine (provided they don't implode financially of course)
I am not negative about the Irish players - the problem for a lot of them is the clubs they are playing for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Smallbone has improved significantly, particularly in the second half of the season - I have always argued that Idah is underrated and I still think so - and Szmodics deserves a shot at the PL (e.g. Southampton could do with him as a replacement for Che Adams).
Isn't Turkish football a basket case right now, corruption, refs being attacked by owners, huge anitpathy between rival clubs - over and beyond normal unhealthy rivalry?!
https://www.ft.com/content/41489e6b-...6-858f9b75c50f
Turkish football’s season from hell points to deeper societal malaise
Country’s dominant sport joins the ranks of those institutions in which the public has lost faith
Turkey’s football season from hell was epitomised by a game this spring on the Black Sea coast, when the full time whistle blew and bedlam took to the field.
A man donning a demonic clown mask prepared to fight with players from one of the country’s leading football clubs, while across the pitch, another invader wielded a corner flag like a giant spear.
The eruption of violence in Trabzon in March after home side Trabzonspor lost to Istanbul’s Fenerbahçe came only months after the president of a prominent Ankara club punched a referee who was then kicked while on the ground. The president later apologised, saying he only meant to spit in the man’s face.
Displays of passion that morph into violence have long been a feature of the match day experience in football-obsessed Turkey, where supporters often seek to intimidate the opposition in order to gain an advantage.
But allegiances have been taken to extremes across the country, with this year’s problems — which prompted a brief suspension of the league — pointing to a deeper malaise, as football joins the swelling ranks of Turkish institutions in which the public has lost faith.
“Credibility and trust in Turkish football has deteriorated over the past 20 years,” said Ali Koç, president of Fenerbahçe and a divisive figure in Turkish football who is a scion of one of the country’s wealthiest business dynasties.
Koç said that growing mistrust had flared up in ways that transcended even the usually intense rivalries. He sparked controversy last month when Fenerbahçe forfeited the Turkish Super Cup match against arch rival Galatasaray in what he described as a “rebellion” against the current state of Turkish football.
“When people start running on to the pitch, trying to lynch players, [without] being properly punished, they become heroes thanks to the way they’re treated by their club officials,” Koç told the Financial Times at his office in Fenerbahçe’s stadium.
Ba??? Erten, a veteran Turkish sport journalist, said it had been “the most terrible season since 2011”, referring to that year’s match-fixing scandal, adding there had been an “unbelievable level” of hate, fuelled in part by senior team officials making vitriolic speeches and accusations about their rivals.*
Mistrust among fans over institutions that are supposed to safeguard fairness in Turkish football — including referees, the country’s football federation and club leaders — lies at the heart of the crisis in Turkish football, according to industry insiders and analysts.
“??Each week there’s a massive discussion about referee calls,” said Özgehan ?enyuva, a professor at Ankara’s Middle East Technical University who has studied Turkish fandom. “There’s always this search for something deeper, some kind of a conspiracy,” he added.*
The suspicion that shadowy forces are at play in deciding matches reflected Turks’ dwindling faith in politics and society more broadly, according to ?enyuva. It comes amid rising concerns over the rule of law, judicial independence and a crackdown on civic society as President Recep Tayyip Erdo?an begins his third decade in power.
Koç’s predecessor at Fenerbahçe, Aziz Y?ld?r?m, was in 2012 found guilty of match rigging and sentenced to six years in jail. Y?ld?r?m was later acquitted, with the government alleging that a group, which it says was behind the 2016 coup attempt against Erdo?an, had initiated a wide-range conspiracy to discredit dozens of leading figures in Turkish football.
“Football is just a magnifier of the general attitudes in the society,” said ?enyuva. “When you don’t trust the judges in the courthouses, you’ll not trust the referees on the pitch.”
[I've deleted a chart highlighting clubs' financial troubles]
Turkish football has long been dominated by the Istanbul trio of Fenerbahçe, Galatasaray and Be?ikta?. But deepening financial woes across the sport have concentrated even more power among the ‘Big Three’ clubs in recent years.
This has played out in the 2023/24 season, with Fenerbahçe and Galatasaray dominating the top-tier Süper Lig. “On the one hand it looks quite good — two teams competing against each other — but what about the other?teams,” Erten said.*
One former industry executive who remains involved in Turkish football noted that “everyone financially is in trouble”. Broadcasting fees, a key source of revenue especially for clubs outside the big cities who can have smaller fan-bases, have plummeted in recent years. Qatari media group BeIN agreed in 2022 to pay $182mn per season to air Süper Lig matches, down from a roughly $500mn per year deal agreed in 2016.**
An 80 per cent tumble in the Turkish lira against the euro over the past five years has also ratcheted up costs for clubs to sign deals with international players who expect their salaries to be linked to hard currencies, the executive said. The cost of importing international stars has been compounded by the fact that Turkey has not done enough to foster talent locally, several industry participants noted.
Turkey’s leading clubs posted a pre-tax loss of €310mn in the 2022-2023 season, according to Uefa, which oversees European football. Collectively Turkish teams recorded €1bn in gross bank debt, with 18 clubs in a negative equity position.*
“The current football business model in Turkey is not sustainable,” said Koç, adding that this “leaves clubs vulnerable to outside interference and influence”.*
Erten agreed, saying the spectre of political interference in football had only worsened fans’ lack of faith.
Indeed such was the disillusionment of some Turkish football fans that they had even switched to follow other sports such as basketball and volleyball. “Turkish people are obsessed with football, but there’s quite a big decrease in interest around football right now,” he said.
Of course one serious consideration about playing in Turkey would have to be what currency you get paid in.