I'm agreeing with Ezeikial. It feels wrong.
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I'm agreeing with Ezeikial. It feels wrong.
the whole Bradley quotes thing you constantly bang on about is overdone, part of the problem of being as you say the biggest club in Dublin with journalists hanging on his every word is that they need to make headlines...he is hardly Roddy Collins or even Kenny Sheils + even your beloved Stephen Kenny is capable of massive gaffs ...please give us a penalty,,,,Karl Sheppard are two that spring to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
The points per season you talk about are facts but this is his second full season Stephen Kenny may have won the league in his second season with Dundalk but that was his 17th season as a LOI manager lets compare apples with apples.
I sincerely hope that Dundalk as a club do not believe there is no point in investing in young players as there is "no guarantee of a return on investment" as it would be a shocking indictment and not great news for young players in the North East Rovers believe in investing in young players and as a supporter I believe in this too.
You were saying the same things about Bradley last year in his first full year as a manager , if you can't see how ridiculous that is I can't help you but lets stop pretending you are prepared to be objective unless anyone thinks his fiirst full year is enough to judge a manager on
Come on sbgawa - you claim that you would like constructive debate without negative abuse and then you pepper your post with prods and whataboutery.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Whataboutery -Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
#1 - Whether Stephen Kenny or Kenny Shiels speak well or poorly is hardly relevant to the question raised about Stephen Bradley
#2 - The attitude of Dundalk FC on ROI on youth investment is somewhat moot and your "shocking indictment" statement is totally hypothetical. I presume you also realise that I do not represent the views of Dundalk FC? Nor have I even offered an opinion on this as regards the club I support!
I have had doubts about Bradley's coaching and management ability from an early stage, but his comments have been consistently entertaining since he was appointed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
I am not sure how you can suggest that me being consistent in my views is in some way ridiculous. I don't pretend to be impartial or objective, but my views on Bradley are genuine. I am a passionate fan of my local football club and being detached or non-partisan does not come easily to me. Pretty much like most LoI fans!
Ok
We agree that kennys poor media performance is not relevant to Bradley's.
You agree you are not objective, fair enough but instead are a "passionate " loi fan.....this doesn't prevent you having a sensible view on things by the way...
I'm relieved you don't represent dundalk views on investment in youth as I would expect the biggest club in the north east to have an interest in the youth in the north east.
Glad we cleared all that up I won't waste my time arguing anymore with someone who's not capable of objective reasoning
Caufield took a team that finished 6th two years in a row to second in his first loi. Bradley isn't even in the same league
If Rovers believe in young players where are they? They haven't been playing much this season. I addressed that in my last post.
Didn't realise giving a guy a couple of years as a manager would be so controversial. Maybe I'm wrong but obviously bradser should have won the league in his first full year in charge. Sounds reasonable.
It has also been pointed out that the draw was while missing 3 players considered among the best in the league, and the loss was away to the defending champions. Hardly comparable to limericks results.Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
It's not, its understandable to make slower progress than normally expected, not to fall short, big difference between the two.Quote:
But e keep hearing about this youth project in Tallaght, its ok for Rovers to fall short while they develop players. Admirable I guess.
Lets compare apples with apples here, take out O'Brien and Rovers average drops to 23.7. Matchday teams change weekly anyway, lets compare squads:Quote:
Both field the same amount of teenagers. Cork Citys Average Age is 25.8. Shamrock Rovers is 24.45. We have the edge in experience but take Nults out and our average falls to just 24.7.
Rovers: 23.9
Cork: 25.2
Dundalk: 25.48
So over a year in difference between Rovers and the other two.
Bone, Bolger, Clarke, Boyd, Dillon, Dobbs who's out on loan, plus Horgan who doesn't count for some reason have all played underage for the club. If caufield "undoubtedly" developed Maguire then the likes of Horgan, Miele and Burke definitely count tooQuote:
Who are these players ye are developing?
Can you actually name the last Dundalk player to go from being on an underage team to being a first team regular? No doubt cork have developed players but Dundalk haven't brought through a player to be a regular in years.Quote:
by the time that happens Dundlk and Cork City will have continued to replenish our squads from youth/externally.
The youth push has only really been going the last 2/3 years, youth academys dont give an immediate return, i thought that was obvious but clearly not.Quote:
Regardless I don't see this as a UCD level of development which is what the media wants us to believe. Maybe its all about Aaron Bolger? Hes played 26 minutes this season in a 6-0 win over Bray so hes not exactly holding the team back with his development.
First round last season Rovers lost to both Dundalk and Cork, second round we beat Dundalk, lost to Cork, third round we beat Dundalk and Cork, but no improvement there clearly. Rovers fans still think Mieles brilliant he's just changed his game slightly so stands out a bit less and isn't flavour of the month anymore for reportersQuote:
So Bradley isn't improving Rovers in the league, or against the best teams, or even winning cups and so far we haven't really seen him take a player and improve them (Miele was massively rated a couple of years ago and now everyone has sort of forgotten about him) so what exactly is it that makes Rovers fans think hes doing a good job?
Bradley's success is were actually playing exciting football more often than before and the players actually give a **** now and it shows, thats what gets fans on board too, not just scraping boring 1-0's every week.Quote:
I don't understand what Bradleys success are and I don't understand how Bradley isn't under pressure to deliver more given the fact that the top clubs most likely have relatively comparable resources available, perhaps with Dundalk having the edge through Europe/Investment but I hope he remains in charge for a long time.
Cant be that easy for Bradley to have similar aged coaches with the profile of Duff and McPhail at the club. They may get on well as individuals but surely some of the brass in Tallaght are already thinking of the additional profile that these coaches could offer as first team coach especially when there is no obvious development to the current team. Another few poor results....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
Me too, the man is a clown. I do wonder that a lot of Shamrock Rovers fans have bought into this youth development thing that they cant admit they are wrong about Bradley. They will be wrong when he gets the boot at the end of the season for sure, and as a betting man Id love to wager on that!
Think there should be a poll on this, who thinks he is really doing a great job. I would hazard a guess that its only shamrock rovers fans who think he is.
Mcphail is Director of Football and Duffer is U15's coach and they have those jobs instead of being manager of the first team for pretty obvious reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nesta99
I think the points gained by Rovers over those years are actually worse that you outlinedQuote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
2014 - 62 (12 points off the Champions)
2015 - 65 (13 points off the Champions)
2016 - 55 (22 points off the Champions)
2017 - 54 (22 points off the Champions)
The decline in results since Bradley took over is pretty clear.
It's pretty clear you are not interested in "constructive debate" as you claimed.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
You really don't get it - it is not at all controversial; most non-Rovers supporters appear to be pleased because of his limitations as a manager/coach and his farcical interviews. A new long term contract for Bradser would actually be excellent news.Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Kidding me right? What an idiotic statement. He's had one season, literally impossible for there to be a decline in points totals under him and as for actual results there has been a marked improvement under his reign, but lets not let the facts get in the way, never stopped you before why start now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
He was appointed as caretaker manager in July 2016. That season Rovers finished 10 points worse off than the previous season, with Fenlons teamQuote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
He was appointed permanently in November of that year and set about building his own squad. In his first full season in charge Rovers finished 11 points worse off than 2015 or 1 point worse off than 2016. If there is something factually incorrect there, by all means point it out.
It is too early to reach any conclusion yet this season, but the early signs are not promising
The facts are you used points from before he was in charge to show a decline under him, that is wrong. He was a caretaker with no transfer window, final position pretty much decided, hardly a season you can judge him on. Then he has had one season so far where there was a clear improvement as the season went on, It is impossible for there to be a decline in a data set of 1, end of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
Early signs? So beating Derry 6-1, drawing with Dundalk while missing 3 key players, and only narrowly losing to the champions are not promising? Coming from the supporter of the club who drew 0-0 with Bray?
Actually I responded to correct El-Pietro points totals which included 2014.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
If you take 2015 as a starting point, 2016 shows a decline in points won and 2017 shows a further decline. If you want to focus on 2017 only (not unreasonable) there was clearly no improvement in overall results - Rovers again finished 22 points off the champions and got 54 points compared with 55 points the previous season.
More whataboutery - but for what it is worth, I agree that the Dundalk draws with Bray, Rovers and St Pats were poor and well below expectations.Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
Are you happy with Rovers start to the season?
you used those results to then say "The decline in results since Bradley took over is pretty clear." which you cant do as he's only responsible for the last points total. In his only season Rovers round one was 4:1:6 round two 7:1:3 round 3 6:1:4 so once the team gelled the was a marked improvement in results under Bradley.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
Happy? no. Satisfied? yes. The loss to Bohs was disappointing but it was a derby and all bets go out the window for them, the draw to Dundalk considering who was missing was good, the Bray result was expected but the performance in getting it was good, the Derry result was brilliant, the Cork result was disappointing but they're the champions for a reason so a 1-0 loss in their back garden isn't something to get upset about.
RH we are arguing with someone who wrote a manager off in his first season , thinks investing in youth is a questionable decision and admits he is not objective and best of all suggests a manager isn't improving a team by putting up points totals for 4 seasons of which the manager was in charge for 1 full season .....at some point you have to stop banging your head off the same wall :) .
Last attempt at an objective analysis of statistical facts in a 3 part Q & A -
Q. Did Bradley improve the Rovers results during his time as Caretaker Manager from July 2016?
A. No
Up to Pat Fenlon getting sacked, Rovers league record for the 2016 season was Played 16, Won 9, Drew 2, Lost 5, Points 29. Bradley was in charge for 17 league games - Played 17, Won 7, Drew 5, Lost 5, Points 26. Rovers were also knocked out at home in both major cup competitions: 3-1 by St Pats in the EA Cup and 5-0 by Cork in the FAI Cup under Bradley’s guidance
Summary of league points acheived in 2016
Fenlon achieved 1.81 points per game
Bradley achieved 1.53 points per game
Q Did Bradley improve the Rovers league results compared to previous seasons, after assembling his own squad for the 2017 season?
A No.
Although the level of decline in results depends on what you choose to measure it against
2015 - 33-18-11-04-65 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Fenlon as manager
2016 - 33-16-07-10-55 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Fenlon 16 matches, Bradley 17 matches
2017 - 33-17-03-13-54 (Played-Won-Drew-Lost-Points) – Bradley as manager
Average points per league game
1.97 - 2015
1.67 - 2016
1.64 - 2017
Q How do the 2018 results measure up so far?
A It is too early to make like-for-like comparisons, but after 5 league match Rovers have a 1.4 points per game average
To add some additional context to this average points stuff, the league winners in 2016 achieved an average of 2.33 points per game with the runners-up coming in at 2.12 points per gameQuote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
2017 is pretty similar with the champions on 2.30 points, the runners-up on 2.09
League Winners average points per game
2.36 - 2015
2.33 - 2016
2.30 - 2017
Although it has limited relevance after so few games, the current top two in the league are running at 2.4 points per game.
My last attempt ...even though I should just go and bang my head on a wall as the wall is more likely to listenQuote:
Originally Posted by Ezeikial
Is Bradley in his second full season ? YES
Is his second full season likely to be better then his first ? at this point to early to call
Is investing in Academy's a good idea? Absolutely as I am sure the Cork lads would agree. Kids grow up and become supporters or players
Is someone who decides in a mangers FIRST year in the job that he is no good and then constantly quotes and writes about him worth listening to ? NO although to your credit you do admit to finding objectivity and impartiality difficult so there is some hope that your dark side might lose out one day and see the light.
COME INTO THE LIGHT !
In matters LoI, I rarely try to be impartial. IMO being objective is difficult for most LoI supporters, who tend to see things through the prism of their own experience (here's looking at you sbgawa and others).Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Maybe we might find common ground on one aspect of this subject - a wish for Bradser to get a new long-term contract with Rovers.
I would cheer a new five year contract extension for the man - would you?
But where are the results? He lost to Cork City with one teenager in the team. You are saying that the Academy is worth it. Who has come from the academy? What relevance does the academy have on Bradleys performance as manager?
Bolger has played 26 minutes so far this season, Sean Boyd has played 22 minutes. Trevor Clarke has played regularly and so has Sam Bone but thats about it. Kevin Horgan too but hes useless. When I said Caulfield had developed Maguire it was because he took a player who was struggling and turned him into the best player in the league. Which players has Bradley developed?
Holy $hit, some people have got too much time on their hands!! And I include the Rovers lads in this.
The reality is that yes, Rovers fans are happy with Bradley.
If opposition fans are also happy that Bradley's in charge( but for different reasons) than hey look, everybody's happy!!
And you can't ask for much more than that..
Results are not there yet because the academy is only up and running for about 4 years and they started with young kids but they won't come through for a few years yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
The best of the kids seem to be the ones who started getting coached properly at 8 and are now 12 and 13.
The young kids in the first team setup will all get game time given the number of matches this year have mostly come from other clubs and joined us at 16 or 17 although we have a couple in this years 17's that joined us a few years ago.
Our 11's 12's and 13's are regularly playing in tournaments abroad and also flying over to take on UK academy teams and doing well.
Its a long term investment that won't pay off for several years to come but I'm following Rovers a long time and hope to be around to see it.
Do Cork not have an Academy ? I thought you did , or is it just the 15's 17's 19's
Your right I'm going to bang my head on a wall instead , hopefully Pats will get us back on track on FridayQuote:
Originally Posted by placid casual
So basically the Academy has nothing to do with Bradleys performance then? So where is Bradleys success?Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
We do not have an academy.
OMG where is his success?
he is in his second year and no he didn't win the league or cup last year. Should be fired pronto.
A team from the South did win a league and a cup last year with a manager who was more than two years in the job......don't know how he survived.
I give up
That manager took a team that finished sixth two years in a row to second with a much smaller budget than his competitors. Stephen Kenny did similar when he took over at Dundalk. Bradley and Rovers have not progressed. They are still 15-20 points from first. They are still the third/fourth best team in the country.
Remember, Bradley and Rovers lost more games than Galway last year and have lost 2 already this season.
head bang
head bang
So no debate then? You are doing what you always do, shutting down discussion, on a discussion forum.
im happy to have a discussion El P but if you can't accept that giving a manager at least two full seasons before judging him a success or a failure what's the point?
In fact I'm pretty sure but can't be bothered to go checking you were saying the same last year when he was one year in the job..
Rovers supporters who go to the games (attendances up well last year) would say they see big improvements on the pitch and are hopeful of better things to come and appreciate the work he does around the whole club..
Bradser will be judged on results like all managers in the end but by people who are prepared to give him a chance not by rival supporters with entrenched views..
My impression is that Rovers supporters are a little confused about this academy stuff and its relevance to Stephen Bradley and the first team performance.Quote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
Many are justifiably proud of the effort and resources Rovers have put in to try to develop this academy experiment - the narrative appears to be that slow senior progress is acceptable as long as there is a hope of good times to come in the future.
To be fair to sbgawa and others, he has not claimed that Bradley is the driving force the Academy, but seems to have bought in to the narrative above by giving him credit for unseen work he allegedly does with the kids. I'm not sure what that is exactly, although I do recall him setting poor example of personal indiscipline being involved in an incident as a spectator at an underage game previously.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
I probably was saying similar last summer when he reached 33 games in charge. I saw no progress over the course of one seasons worth of games and I see no progress in the 20ish games since then. You think there is progress but can't actually describe it in anything other than in terms of "better football" which is impossible to quantify.
If he is judged on results then he should be judged poorly as he isn't getting them.
I actually posted the statistics showing the improvement over the course of last season earlierQuote:
Originally Posted by El-Pietro
I assume you are referring to the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop
First round of 2018 you lost to Cork City and drew with Dundalk. So going backwards again based on your logic. Also beating Cork City in the third series last year is hardly an achievement, everyone beat us.Quote:
First round last season Rovers lost to both Dundalk and Cork, second round we beat Dundalk, lost to Cork, third round we beat Dundalk and Cork, but no improvement there clearly.
John Caulfield:
2014 2nd
2015 2nd
2016 2nd
2017 1st
JC improved us in 2014 but made no progress in 2015 and 2016. Im fact there was a lower points total in 2015 iirc. Many called for his head and El-P was of the opinion he should remain in charge (rightly).
I'm no fan of Bradley, he comes out with an awful lot of guff and is a **** IMO, but criticism now is silly and a little hypocritical in some quarters.
Time will tell boys the jury of normal people will judge in time.
I've given up on expecting anything other than negativity from you two but you are entitled to your opinions which you clearly have.
EZ I love your line "unseen work he allegedly does in the academy" in response to my "He coaches kids in the Academy" is it that you don't believe me he coaches the kids?
This is what you said (and is quoted above also)Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa
Do you think they are they different in meaning?Quote:
Originally Posted by sbgawa