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At this stage surely Willie is a possessor of a Passport stating that he's a subject?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
If alone with residency; what about his parents being born pre-1949 and therefore entitled to a UK passport by right and him therefore by virtue of that?
I'm sure Willie has exhausted all possible avenues. He had no official recognition - be that full British citizenship or British subject status - as recently as July of 2011 anyway and would have been required to fork out over £800 for naturalisation, according to the Belfast Telegraph, so unless something has changed since then...
I think any Ireland-born applicant has to have been born prior to 1949 themselves; subject status cannot be transmitted via descent, as far as I can make out, so a parent's pre-1949 birth would not confer any right to apply for subject status.
Are you sure?Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
All things being equal: My maternal grandfather was born in 1915 in Dublin which was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, my maternal grandmother was born in 1928 in Dublin which was part of the Irish Free State. Both were entitled to the citizenship of both the UK and Ireland by my reckoning.
My mother therefore as a child of 2 British citizens (they didn't claim as such, but for the sake of this let's say they did) would surely have been granted citizenship.
The above scenario I am sure is replicated throughout Ireland.
I appreciate that Willie obviously has exhausted all avenues but it seems strange to me.
I think your parents have to have claimed it before they died for it to be valid. Not sure about that though, so I could be wrong.
Look a few pages back in the parallel 'Eligibility' thread and you'll find poster Ole Ole suggesting that- as a NI U-21 international- McClean can't be a proper Nationalist.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
I doubt that Willie Hay has exhausted every means of getting a Brit passport- and in any case £860 isn't that expensive for a well-salaried career politician.
It's mopery, he's revelling in it.
My grandparents would have had to claim it. Then my mother would have had to claim it before my grandparents died.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Completely agree. But that is the wont of a Super Duper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Beams are gonna blind me, but I won't feel (red white and) blue...Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I was sick and tired of every Tim, when I called you last night from Glasgow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
All I do is bleat and strip and sing, wishing every Tim was the last Tim...
Does this provide clarity?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...lic_of_IrelandQuote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I'm not certain. I'll have to give it a proper read over later.Quote:
British Nationality Act 1948
As a result of the British Nationality Act 1948, Irish citizens ("citizens of Eire") lost British-subject status automatically on 1 January 1949 if they did not acquire citizenship of Britain & Colonies or that of another Commonwealth country, notwithstanding that Ireland did not cease to be one of His Majesty's dominions until 18 April 1949.
However, section 2 of the Act allowed certain Irish citizens who were British subjects before 1949 to apply at any time to the Secretary of State to remain British subjects.
Applications had to be based on:
- previous Crown service under the United Kingdom government;
- possession of a British passport; or
- associations by way of descent, residence or otherwise with the United Kingdom or any Crown colony, protectorate, British mandated territory or British trust territory.
No provision was made for the retention of British nationality by Irish citizens born in the Republic of Ireland after 1948. British subject status, as distinct from citizenship of the UK & Colonies, was not transmissible by descent.
For the purpose of the 1948 legislation, the United Kingdom was defined based on its post-1922 borders. Hence, birth in the Republic of Ireland before 1922 was not sufficient in itself to confer UK & Colonies citizenship. Persons born in the Republic of Ireland before 1949 became Citizens of the UK & Colonies by descent in British law on 1 January 1949 if they had a father born in the United Kingdom or a place which was a colony at that date (provided father was married to the person's mother).
In common with those from the Commonwealth, Irish citizens resident in the United Kingdom, whether they held British subject status or not, were entitled to apply for registration as a citizen of the UK & Colonies after one year's residence. By the 1970s this time period had increased to five years.
Ireland Act 1949
The United Kingdom's Ireland Act 1949 came into force on 18 April 1949 and recognised the end of the Irish state's status as a British dominion, which had been effected under the Irish parliament's Republic of Ireland Act 1948 which was brought into force in 1949. The 1949 Act provided that "citizens of the Republic of Ireland" (the new British nomenclature adopted under the Act) would continue to be treated on a par with those from Commonwealth countries and would not be treated as aliens in the United Kingdom.
Section 5 of the 1949 Act conferred Citizenship of the UK and Colonies (CUKC) on any Irish-born person meeting all the following criteria:
- was born before 6 December 1922 in what became the Republic of Ireland;
- was domiciled outside the Republic of Ireland on 6 December 1922;
- was ordinarily resident outside the Republic of Ireland from 1935 to 1948; and
- was not registered as an Irish citizen under Irish legislation.
British Nationality Act 1981
The British Nationality Act 1981, in force from 1 January 1983:
- retained the facility for those born in the Republic of Ireland before 1949 to register as British subjects (section 31)
- provided that Irish citizens, in common with those from the Commonwealth, would be required to apply for naturalisation as British citizens rather than registration after five years residence in the UK (or three years if married, or in a Civil Partnership to a British citizen).
British subjects retained the right to apply for registration as a British citizen after 5 years residence in the UK.
Access to British citizenship for Irish citizens
As a result of the above, there is generally no special access to British citizenship for Irish citizens. The facility for those born before 1949 to claim British subject status does not confer British citizenship, although it gives an entitlement to registration as such after 5 years in the UK.
Irish citizens seeking to become British citizens are usually required to live in the UK and become naturalised after meeting the normal residence and other requirements, unless they can claim British citizenship by descent from a UK born or naturalised parent. An Irish citizen who naturalises as a British citizen does not automatically lose their Irish citizenship.
Naturalisation as a British citizen is a discretionary power of the Secretary of State for the Home Department but will generally not be refused if the requirements are met.
Nationalism can mean different things for different people. For some, it amounts merely to a cultural identification with the Irish national identity, whilst, for others, it represents an ideal with political connotations; an aspiration for Irish unity independent of Britain. There are people who identify with the Irish national identity in the north who'd be content to remain within the UK. Olé Olé may well recognise their Irish identity but might dispute their credentials if they proclaimed themselves to be nationalists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Perhaps, although not every British-identifying dweller/native of east Donegal is a well-salaried career politician. Hay's story made the news because of his public profile, but he'll not be the only Laggan native who feels culturally handicapped by this lack of official recognition. It's clearly a matter of principle rather than cost. No doubt, with parity of esteem and all that in mind, he wonders why he should have to fork out £860 for his identity to be formally recognised (through what he might perceive to be the "less authentic/pure" process of naturalisation) when members of the nationalist community across the border (the mirror image of his Laggan community, albeit more numerous in their minority status) can have their identity formally acknowledged from birth. He obviously feels he was born British and seeks recognition of that.Quote:
I doubt that Willie Hay has exhausted every means of getting a Brit passport- and in any case £860 isn't that expensive for a well-salaried career politician.
It's mopery, he's revelling in it.
What Ole Ole suggested and what you understand are 2 entirely different things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Ole Ole does not suggest that a nationalist can't be a 'proper' nationalist and represent NI at the same time. Their 'proper' nationalist credentials are not at all questioned by Ole Ole, a nationalist player's 'soul remains intact' in an IFA shirt. It is just a question whether that nationalist integrity is regarded as represented or not, in the IFA shirt?
Ole Ole wroteQuote:
but if a player also identifies themselves as a nationalist, then consequently, they themselves can not view playing for NI as 'international' recognition, can they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Ole
Aye, sorry about that. I don't have your impressive ability to read others' minds, and so have to respond to what they actually say. Even if it ain't what they meant to say. Is it a skill you learned from reading CB's poems?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Nice sidestep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Invinvible
No, it's a publicity stunt. Willie doesn't want his neighbors to become British (which presumably they'd be much more likely to do if it cost £80 rather than £860), as it would lose him some imagined moral high ground.Quote:
It's clearly a matter of principle rather than cost
How so?
And why do you perceive Seamus Heaney to be a bigot exactly?
A culchie bigot, to be more exact? :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
That's an incredibly liberal interpretation of what I was trying to say there, Gather Round. Geysir didn't quite read my mind, I think he more managed to apply some sense of logic in his apprehension of what I was saying. Pity you didn't exercise the same approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I did not say that McClean could not be nationalist if he played for NI. I was attempting to contextualize how someone like McGinn or McClean would view themselves as nationalist and support Ireland, and by deduction, view Irish as their nationality. The correlation between this self-perception and how they view pulling on the NI jersey seems to be irrelevant to them, because both seemed to view themselves as nationalists first and NI footballers second- they have clearly expressed as much in their comments.
My comment most expressly outlines that McGinn and McClean are/were nationalists playing for NI, not that their nationalism is in any way compromised by playing for NI. You are completely interpreting my comment backwards and drawing an abstract conclusion.
This whole issue is something that has little relevance to my existence, given that I have barely been in the North and am too young to remember the Troubles. Nonetheless, it's an issue that interests me quite a bit. People who would be more associated with it drawing harsh and inaccurate inferences from my, what could be deemed, less-informed muses is rather tedious.
Totally agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
Irish nationalists are welcome to play for Northern Ireland, representing the Irish Football Association...if they are eligible.
Here is what you posted, in full:Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
I think you are being harsh on Gather Round - i think his interpretation of your post is valid (though it may not be the only valid interpretation), based on what you wrote. DannyInvincible also wonders whether you would dispute their credentials of they were proclaiming themselves as nationalists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Olé Olé
But, it's not in full is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
What you quoted was a reply to a post written by (and where he asks some questions of) the last of the Fenian rebels, Predator.
Post 4920
Danny wrote in reply in post 4921
then Ole asks more questions in post 4922Quote:
I would find it impossible to reconcile playing for NI with my own nationalist identity. But then, identity is a complex realm, professional football isn't my career and playing football for a certain team doesn't necessarily have to amount to an expression of that team's national identity for the player concerned.
Just a normal enough progression in a discussion.Quote:
Players might want to receive international recognition, but if a player also identifies themselves as a nationalist, then consequently, they themselves can not view playing for NI as 'international' recognition, can they?
50 years of poems saying basically 'Nature red in tooth and claw as metaphor for centuries of British oppression'. We got it all in school years before teachers in the South, England in the rest of the World had ever heard of him. The caste system example quoted above was actually quite direct by his standards. Probably blurted it out straight after a liquid lunch with Salman Rushdie or the Dalai Lama.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny Invinvcible
If it was, he could have sorted it out years ago- as a bit of local constituency casework- for his 'only Brit in the village' neighbors. Whether by persuading a Home Secretary to exempt those individuals, or getting the fee cut generally. I'm afraid I don't believe his claim to have exhausted all options. Instead, he's using the issue as a variant of the old 'Themmuns get everything'. I'd very much doubt he welcomes Marty McGuinness's help.Quote:
It's clearly a matter of principle rather than cost [for Willie Hay]
Er, I quoted what you wrote- asking a straightforward if provocative question, then answering it yourself. Do you mean 'literal'? I used a simple logic, ie assuming you meant what you wrote. Any pity should be that you didn't explain clearly what you meant to avoid any confusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ole Ole
I didn't interpret anything you or anyone wrote backwards. I quoted what you said, which wasn't given any extra context by what you said in your next post. My conclusion was actually the very opposite of abstract. Let alone harsh or inaccurate. If you find challenge to your comments on a public message board tedious sorry, but them's the breaks.
And that's it? your core reasons for justifying calling Heaney a culchie bigot?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Frivilous in the extreme.
I can do a bibliography, if you like?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
I'm impressed. That's like being dissed by Dana Scallon for being too Catholic.Quote:
Frivolous in the extreme
So if Willie Hay was photographed at a protest near a banner proclaiming ulster to be british, would that be ironic?
So you don't like his celebrated poems... They may be indicative of a victim complex - whether his perception is valid or deluded is another argument - but do they really constitute bigotry? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
Mark Devenport on Twitter: https://twitter.com/markdevenport/st...57935017226240
Stephen Dempster on Twitter: https://twitter.com/dempster7/status/298857232500666369Quote:
57% interviewees for tonight's BBC Spotlight survey say there should be border poll within next 7 years
What could that mean? I don't think a result in favour of maintaining the union with Britain would raise eyebrows - that being the status quo - so is it suggestive of a surprising majority polling in favour of unity or simply promotional hype?Quote:
The really interesting part of tonight's BBC1 NI Spotlight will be how people would vote in a Border Poll - the figures will raise eyebrows!
I think the programme is on BBC One NI at 10:35, although won't be able to view it myself over here, unfortunately.
I'd guess it means more people would vote for unity than expected but it would still be in favour of the status quo.
Was just gonna go to bed early til I saw this. Rats.
I wasn't making a statement; I was posing questions which did carry inferences but I'm not making a definitive statement, far be it from me to be able to do so. I wasn't stating that McClean playing for NI means he isn't a nationalist (as Gather Round decided to interpret my post). I was asserting some interpretation of the word 'nationalist' on the actual event of McClean lining out for NI. Of course McGinn is most likely to identify as nationalist, that's a well-known fact. I'm just pointing out a conflict that exists in these situations in terms of the literal meaning of the word 'nationalist' and the act of playing for NI.Quote:
Originally Posted by osarusan
Haven't really up read on this, would people in the Republic have the opportunity to vote and do we really want unity considering the obvious issues it raises? Happy to take their players, but personally I don't want the associated issues that would come with any degree of unity.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Aye, I think so. But relax, I'm not suggesting he's a paramilitary or anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Looks like they want unity that is the status quoQuote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin
NI to remain part of the UK- 65%
NI to be joined with the Irish Republic- 17%
Wouldn't vote- 12%
Don't Know- 7%
Source: MORI/ BBC
No. Enda and Mehole will be relieved :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Gastric
As I've mentioned, for 90 years all your Governments and a large proportion of wider proportion haven't wanted it, whatever they said publicly or in the Constitution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gastric
Remind us if you would? Ta.Quote:
I don't want the associated issues that would come with any degree of unity
Last night's 'Spotlight' programme is now on the BBC iPlayer for those who can view it: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ht_05_02_2013/
Haven't seen it yet myself, but 65 per cent of those surveyed in their poll would support maintaining the union with Britain, whilst 17 per cent would support Irish unity. Full details of the poll are available on page 16 of this document: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/tv/spotlight/survey.pdf
(Edit: Sorry, the table doesn't appear to display correctly and looks a bit disorganised. I think it's dependent on screen resolution.)Code:Q.3 If there was a referendum tomorrow would you vote for...?
Base : All Adults 18+
SOCIAL
GENDER SOCIAL CLASS (4) NATIONALIST X SOCIAL CLASS (4) UNIONIST X SOCIAL CLASS (4) CLASS (2)
-------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- ------------------------------- ---------------
Total Male Female AB C1 C2 DE AB C1 C2 DE AB C1 C2 DE ABC1 C2DE
Significance Level: 95% a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p
Significance Level: 99% A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P
UNWEIGHTED 1046 514 532 195 261 174 415 58 71 49 122 58 106 81 138 456 589
WEIGHTED 1046 513 533 194 259 173 419 63 78 54 134 53 98 75 128 453 592
100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100% 100%
Northern Ireland to remain 683 327 357 131 176 113 263 **29 **36 **15 **46 **48 **93 **70 **122 307 375
part of the United Kingdom 65% 64% 67% 68% 68% 65% 63% 45% 46% 28% 34% 90% 94% 94% 95% 68% 63%
Northern Ireland to be joined 180 **114 **65 33 36 32 78 **25 **24 **24 **56 **2 **3 **3 **0 70 110
with the Republic of Ireland 17% 22% 12% 17% 14% 19% 19% 40% 31% 45% 42% 3% 3% 4% - 15% 19%
outside of the United Kingdom B n n n
Would not vote 127 *50 *77 25 32 20 51 10 8 11 23 *2 **1 **2 **5 57 71
12% 10% 15% 13% 12% 12% 12% 16% 10% 21% 17% 3% 1% 2% 4% 13% 12%
a
Don't know 56 22 34 *5 15 8 28 0 **10 3 9 2 2 *0 *2 20 36
5% 4% 6% 2% 6% 4% 7% - 13% 6% 7% 3% 2% - 1% 4% 6%
c G g
Columns Tested: A,B - C,D,E,F - G,H,I,J - K,L,M,N - O,P
Sinn Féin have called for a border poll in the north - which has resulted in mild ridicule from certain quarters - but I'd assume the electorate south of the border would also have to be consulted on the prospect of Irish unity via a separate referendum if one went ahead in the north and saw a majority voting in favour of Irish unity.Quote:
Originally Posted by gastric
According to the Ipsos MRBI 50th anniversary poll, a substantial majority (64 per cent) of people south of the border would support unity with "69 per cent of [that majority, I think] say[ing] they would still favour a united Ireland even if they had to pay more in taxation to support it": http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...327144275.html
Take whose players? The FAI facilitate eligible Irish nationals who are willing and good enough to play for us. We don't "take" anyone's players.Quote:
Happy to take their players, but personally I don't want the associated issues that would come with any degree of unity.
Which "associated issues" would trouble you?
In what way does it constitute bigotry exactly?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gather round
I'm not disputing the figures in that a significant majority of those polled clearly support maintaining the union with Britian, but the phrasing, "NI to be joined with the Irish Republic", might imply that NI was to be subsumed into the already-existing state south of the border. Maybe, maybe not... But perhaps people would look at the notion differently if the idea of a completely new, revamped united Irish state was proposed?Quote:
Looks like they want unity that is the status quo
NI to remain part of the UK- 65%
NI to be joined with the Irish Republic- 17%
Thje phrasing of the questions and the obvious bias in its reporting made the whole experience a mockery. I was ashamed by that programme last night.
That they used phraseology last used in the 70s in the setting of the survey shows the fear that was there within the BBC that there may have been a different result.
I'm still so angry at Noel Thompson for ignoring the obvious bigotry of the bumpkin Foster last night. And as for the UUP, An Fear O Cinneide really is on cloud cuckoo land. They are screwed no matter how much of a mess the Super Dupers make of the flag issue.
The BBC survey merely confirmed what we knew already - as evidenced by recent "Life & Times" surveys, which I have never heard anyone challenge as being biased.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
The truth of the matter is that there isn't going to be a "United" Ireland anytime soon.
Now, When PSF have something constructive to "sell" on that front, I'll listen carefully to what they have to say - until then, their bland rhetoric and fantasy island nonsense doesn't cut the mustard.
In what way did you think Foster was "bigoted" last night?
After PSF have drafted such proposals - I don't think they have even started yet - they'll be worth appropriate consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
Come on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
She spent the entire show on the defensive and kept on belittling the notions of Irishness and Irish Nationalism within this "shared" society she keeps bleating about through the other side of her mouth. It's unfortunte for her she is from Fermanagh, you'd think being surrounded by a majority Nationalist population she would be slightly more considerate and understanding of those notions.
I mean when you have to shout down Alex Attwood you really have to reconsider what you're actually arguing about.
Can you relate a specific example of Foster's bigotry last night?Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
Right now, no. But once I have reviewed it again later on iplayer I will, with times and everything. Can't get better than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
And if you're gonna split hairs on this... should I bother?
Look forward to discussing that with you - I certainly didn't sense "bigotry" from her, but will be happy to change that opinion, once the offending comments are confirmed.Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
She run rings around Alex Maskey debating a Border Poll on the BBC a week or so ago - rarely does a Shinner get so bashed up as Maskey did on that occassion.
I'm not a fan of the DUP generally, but I believe Foster to be a capable politician.
She's capable. But she comes across as a total and utter contemptable a lot of the times. She's mealy mouthed in relation to Nationalism and it seems that she gets caught of guard in regard to it a lot and starts talking in tongues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil
I missed the discussion with Maskey. Though he's a twallop. Got a link?
It was on the Nolan Show on 23rd January - not sure if it's on BBC NI I Player?Quote:
Originally Posted by BonnieShels
I'll find it. Cheers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Not Brazil