GUST apply for first division licence

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Originally Posted by gufcfan

Galway United would never have been given a licence for 2012, which is the same thing.

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Cobh didn't get a licence. They went out of league of Ireland football for a few years, got their house in order and now look to be getting back. Sligo Rovers dropped out of LOI football twice I think but contained in the Connacht league. Just because your not in the LOI it dosen't mean your club dosen't exsist. No one would have a problem if you wanted to start up your own FC united of Galway non league and work your way up but like Cork and Derry you are taking the easy option and trying to bypass all the hard work. Basically buying a franchise. GUFC got to big for their boots alienated themselves from the local community and forgot what been a football club is about.

On a side note I can see why football is so divided in Galway just reading this site. GUST might try and gloss all over it saying you will United football don't there. But from what I see from this site same sh1t different toilet.

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Originally Posted by Sean South

No one would have a problem if you wanted to start up your own FC united of Galway non league and work your way up

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The problem is, there is no way of "working your way up". That's how it's done in England, but in Ireland, senior clubs are few and far between, so entry to the league is basically on an invitational basis. If you want to play, you're let. That's not GUST's fault. You mention Sligo and Cobh - neither of them "worked their way up" from non-league; they just applied for league membership and were granted it (or presumably that's what's going to happen to Cobh)

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Originally Posted by Sean South

Cobh didn't get a licence. They went out of league of Ireland football for a few years, got their house in order and now look to be getting back. Sligo Rovers dropped out of LOI football twice I think but contained in the Connacht league. Just because your not in the LOI it dosen't mean your club dosen't exsist. No one would have a problem if you wanted to start up your own FC united of Galway non league and work your way up but like Cork and Derry you are taking the easy option and trying to bypass all the hard work. Basically buying a franchise. GUFC got to big for their boots alienated themselves from the local community and forgot what been a football club is about.

On a side note I can see why football is so divided in Galway just reading this site. GUST might try and gloss all over it saying you will United football don't there. But from what I see from this site same sh1t different toilet.

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There's no way back if we go, there LOI is now a closed shop again. And Cobh did not drop out of league football, they went to the A Championship

Stu I get your point about working your way up the ladder in this country. Yes it's different then in England but look St all the Mickey Mouse clubs over the past ten or twenty years Kildare, Dublin, Fingal, Cork etc easy come easy go. Now compare them to clubs which started of at local level and gradually worked their way up and established a community base over the years. I can only speak for Sligo Rovers but it would seem clubs Mervue , Cobh etc have done this too.

Stu you would know better but I wouldn't have a problem with GUST doing a Shams on it either going into administration and buying I think 10 per cent of the debt. It would probably mean having to do what Cobh did and not take part in the LOI for a few years. It would also take an enormous effort just like Shams 400 club

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Originally Posted by Sean South

Stu you would know better but I wouldn't have a problem with GUST doing a Shams on it either going into administration and buying I think 10 per cent of the debt. It would probably mean having to do what Cobh did and not take part in the LOI for a few years. It would also take an enormous effort just like Shams 400 club

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They can't do this as they don't own the club.

They can't put the club into examinership, but they could do what the Rovers 500-club did and buy the club post examinership with 10% of debts (say). But not being able to put the club into examinership is a problem obviously, and it seems they plan on taking on some of the debt anyway, so they're kind of doing that in roundabout kind of way.

Also, there's no reason going into examinership would mean pulling out of the league; Cobh were kicked out of the league because they didn't submit their licence application.

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Originally Posted by Sean South

Now compare them to clubs which started of at local level and gradually worked their way up and established a community base over the years.

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Sadly, I don't see them knocking on the door wanting into the league. That's what it boils down to.

gust is owed more than 10% of the debt of the club and it also will pay all football debts from their season in charge. We are supporters not fly by nights.

It would be great to think that the GUST can set up a club, play in a Connacht League for a couple of seasons and work their way into the LOI, but in Ireland it doesn't work that way. And I believe, knowing one of the people involved, that they'll do right by those as much as is possible. The two other Galway clubs will continue on their way though we need a good Galway club with a strong fanbase, despite the worst efforts of the Galway Council and their ilk. Maybe a way forward is to link somehow with Connacht rugby for a while?

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

It would be great to think that the GUST can set up a club, play in a Connacht League for a couple of seasons and work their way into the LOI, but in Ireland it doesn't work that way. And I believe, knowing one of the people involved, that they'll do right by those as much as is possible. The two other Galway clubs will continue on their way though we need a good Galway club with a strong fanbase, despite the worst efforts of the Galway Council and their ilk. Maybe a way forward is to link somehow with Connacht rugby for a while?

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There is no Connacht League.

as far as i could establish today, negotiations are ongoing with creditors of the company that held the airtricity league licence last year and expired on the 31st of december. The directors of that former licence holder have decided to not apply for a licence but the company is still running what is probably an orderly wind down of sorts negotiating with legitimate creditors . The supporters and members of the soccer, political, social community have clubbed together under a steering group and have asked for an invitation to apply for that licence so to keep Loi football alive for the whole city and county & make sure the football family work together eventually under one club. 2500 signatures have been gathered, Letters of support from many many of the junior & juvenile clubs have been forthcoming and major national sponsors have been secured for this "community" effort.

The only argument against is there shouldnt be 3 teams in Galway.
Well when 900 GUST fans turn up at the other 2 clubs for league games they wont be complaining either im sure
Was all this planned all along, seems very orderly

Gaillimh abu

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Originally Posted by Mr Maroon

There is no Connacht League.

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Facepalm for you - which is why I'd written - "it would be great to think" (the whole situation goes against any type of progressive club, company or community who want to play in the LOI, any new club will be sneered at by clubs with "history", whether that history is stiffing creditors, running out on debts, forming new companies or basically re-inventing their history.

GUST were nuts to prop up Galway United the way they did, for so long, without proper representation. That would be my only issue with whats gone on - it's a few years too late. iirc the 400 club had loads of mither trying to force Rovers into examinership - without ownership a supporters trust can't go that route unilaterally. If they're owed as much as is said, they maybe had some leverage but it sounds like the owners couldn't care either way.

There's no structure for clubs to do an AFC Wimbledon or FC United on it, to work their way back to the league (and even then, there was complaints those two clubs didn't start low enough!). However, I do agree it's a bit off that clubs can buy the name, crest and history - and be allowed to compete under the name - quite so soon after effectively restarting a club albeit with a different holding company.

Macy, you're 100% right, however without knowing the full inside story we'll never know why they took that course of action. Look at Dundalk, the supporters were running the show then had footsie played with them while they were used as leverage and excuses to keep the books closed. You've hit the nail on the head with how hijacking the history of an old club (or merging or taking over a licence) gets a dodgy look, we're just stuck with the system. Seems like that in Galway there was a long period of carry on before the eventual and convenient (outsider) scapegoat was found, I just hope the club survives in some way for teh supporters sake.

I really don't understand some people's attitudes on here.

It's a peculiarly Irish attitude that people should be severely punished for making a mess of their finances. Ironically, it seems some of the directors from the old Galway United board personally guaranteed some of the loans and will be forced to pay them back, but otherwise it's just a holding company that failed. Get over it. The club, the team, its traditions and history exists independently of the suits who just happen to control its business arm.

The reason there's no equivalent to the English pyramid system is that clubs like Pike Rovers, Avondale and Crumlin United don't want to participate in the LOI. They're happy to stay where they are, big fish in their own small pond, and let's face it there's a certain amount of antipathy between junior clubs and the LOI.

The idea of the A Championship was to encourage this to happen but it failed miserably. Sure, LOI is invitation-only but any club meeting the licensing criteria (and even a few who don't seem to) will generally be allowed to participate.

So if anyone who has a problem with the current system can devise a mechanism of getting the aforementioned clubs to show an interest in joining then let's hear it.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

It's a peculiarly Irish attitude that people should be severely punished for making a mess of their finances. Ironically, it seems some of the directors from the old Galway United board personally guaranteed some of the loans and will be forced to pay them back, but otherwise it's just a holding company that failed. Get over it. The club, the team, its traditions and history exists independently of the suits who just happen to control its business arm.

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Well as a Rovers fan, you would say that... ;)

I hope GUST are allowed in the league, and I've no axe to grind with anyone in Galway but in most cases overspending is cheating as a club.

To walk away from that, practically untouched in some cases, clearly isn't fair on clubs who have stuggled to pay their way and suffered on the field.

You use the term holding company like it isn't really a part of the club. The people in charge of running a football club made decisions for the football club, and the football club should be responsible for that. It'd be like not relegating a club because their manager made some awful decision but 'he's only an employee, he's not the club..."

Awful analaogy maybe, but I simply don't agree that the 'holding company' argument stands up

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Originally Posted by geezer

under a steering group and have asked for an invitation to apply for that licence so to keep Loi football alive for the whole city and county & make sure the football family work together eventually under one club. 2500 signatures have been gathered, Letters of support from many many of the junior & juvenile clubs have been forthcoming and major national sponsors have been secured for this "community" effort.

The only argument against is there shouldnt be 3 teams in Galway.
Well when 900 GUST fans turn up at the other 2 clubs for league games they wont be complaining either im sure
Was all this planned all along, seems very orderly

Gaillimh abu

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There would not be a problem if the 2,500 "signatories" actually turned up at Galway games :rolleyes:

The argument on here is little/nothing to do with three teams in Galway it is concerned with the culture of, overspend - go bust - walk away - restart under different holding company, that has now inceasinlgly become the business plan for some LOI clubs.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I really don't understand some people's attitudes on here.

It's a peculiarly Irish attitude that people should be severely punished for making a mess of their finances. Ironically, it seems some of the directors from the old Galway United board personally guaranteed some of the loans and will be forced to pay them back, but otherwise it's just a holding company that failed. Get over it. The club, the team, its traditions and history exists independently of the suits who just happen to control its business arm.

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So instead of being punished they should be rewarded by getting their debts cleared?

In recent times you have Rovers, Cork, Derry, Drogs and now Galway who will likely get rewarded for not living within their means. Why should other clubs play by the rules?

Why not just fold all clubs at the end of the season, reform with a slight name change buy back history a season later build up debts and then repeat. Surely this would create the sustainable professional league that we all crave

L4S - fold all the clubs at the end of the season???? You're looking for a proper, fully functioning, professional, sustainable, progressive and successful League of Ireland (in the North American style) to come into existence - are you insane? Do you know how good this could be for football in Ireland? How, with some intelligent business plans and marketing plus central planning, that people with serious money might become involved and push Irish clubs further up the European rankings? That's crazy talk! :-) We're Irish, we don't do rational, we pay back other people's debts and do as we're told, with bread and games thrown in. Common sense doesn't have a home on the Emerald Isle!

None of what you suggested is common sense, in fact its the complete opposit

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Well as a Rovers fan, you would say that... ;)

I hope GUST are allowed in the league, and I've no axe to grind with anyone in Galway but in most cases overspending is cheating as a club.

To walk away from that, practically untouched in some cases, clearly isn't fair on clubs who have stuggled to pay their way and suffered on the field.

You use the term holding company like it isn't really a part of the club. The people in charge of running a football club made decisions for the football club, and the football club should be responsible for that. It'd be like not relegating a club because their manager made some awful decision but 'he's only an employee, he's not the club..."

Awful analaogy maybe, but I simply don't agree that the 'holding company' argument stands up

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Ha, well strictly speaking the holding company survived under new ownership, but yeah the back-up option would have been to do it this way.

Do you really think they're walking away untouched though? The club is in ruins. People seem to be implying that there's some moral hazard, that clubs will look at Galway's failure and go "we should emulate that exactly!" It's just yet more proof that you can't sustain a football club on ever-expanding bank loans.

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Originally Posted by Louth4sam

So instead of being punished they should be rewarded by getting their debts cleared?

In recent times you have Rovers, Cork, Derry, Drogs and now Galway who will likely get rewarded for not living within their means. Why should other clubs play by the rules?

Why not just fold all clubs at the end of the season, reform with a slight name change buy back history a season later build up debts and then repeat. Surely this would create the sustainable professional league that we all crave

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I have a thought experiment for you.

Imagine you borrowed massively to buy a house during the boom (maybe you did, I don't know), but now you've lost your job and the house is worthless. You have two options: lose the house and owe the bank hundreds of thousands, or lose the house and declare bankruptcy. Which one is the reward? Do you think you deserve to be in a debt prison for the rest of your life?

Irish people have such bad attitudes towards failure. The GUST are trying to do a great thing and revive a football club that has made a lot of costly mistakes and has hit rock bottom. It's complete madness to suggest other clubs will look at this and want to follow them into that spiral.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Do you really think they're walking away untouched though? The club is in ruins. People seem to be implying that there's some moral hazard, that clubs will look at Galway's failure and go "we should emulate that exactly!" It's just yet more proof that you can't sustain a football club on ever-expanding bank loans.

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Like I said, I want GUST to get into the league and I hope they can build up

But they will be already ahead of most LOI clubs if they don't have debt to service. If they start next year with a nice sponsorship deal with supermacs, a lovely stadium in Terryland and no/vastly reduced debts to service then they'll be in good shape.

I can see why clubs struggling to repay their own debts would see that as unfair

CD, the Irish attitude towards failure is deep rooted and is evident in our bankruptcy laws. We've been conditioned through centuries of being told to keep our heads down to just survive, anyone who's having a go is watched for when they'll go belly up. As Rovers were qualifying for the EL groups there were posts on here that decried it, and just as they played their last game the Indo (admittedly not a beacon for Irishness) rubbished the achievement. How many people are waiting for Rovers to blow up and waste their money to say - see, told you they'd do it. It's not begrudgery, it's not like in Russia where you envy your neighbour so you wreck his house to make it look like yours, it's just not a mix of not wanting to see a neighbour go bust, not wanting to be left behind and also being forced to lift yourself to compete. Abroad the Irish work hard, and at home we work hard, we just are a little mental.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Like I said, I want GUST to get into the league and I hope they can build up

But they will be already ahead of most LOI clubs if they don't have debt to service. If they start next year with a nice sponsorship deal with supermacs, a lovely stadium in Terryland and no/vastly reduced debts to service then they'll be in good shape.

I can see why clubs struggling to repay their own debts would see that as unfair

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That doesn't add up. It will be a long road back for any potential GUST team. We have very few assets, so the immediate focus will be to put an infrastructure in place. The budget will be considerably less than what a lot of other First Division sides will be operating on.

Much of the debt is bank debt/personally guaranteed loans. The directors personally guaranteed these loans, I don't see why GUST should be responsible for this. GUST will pay for the debt they accrued, its up to the Directors to be responsible for theirs.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Do you really think they're walking away untouched though? The club is in ruins. People seem to be implying that there's some moral hazard, that clubs will look at Galway's failure and go "we should emulate that exactly!"

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They're walking away with much less damage than they would have if any new holding company had to assume the debt (or portion thereof) left behind by the previous holding company if the new entity wants to assume the name and history of the old one.

My problem with this situation is that there isn't enough of a deterrent at the moment. Clubs can overspend, go broke, and re-emerge within a year as a debt-free club, especially if you don't own your ground. Nobody is saying that is a process clubs should aim for, nobody is saying it's not a bad thing, but it's not as painful as it might be.That's not fair on other clubs who are more determined, or just better at, keeping spending reasonable.

I don't think anybody has a problem with what GUST are doing - the problem lies in the ease with which a club can re-emerge debt free after overspending.

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Originally Posted by gufc2000

Much of the debt is bank debt/personally guaranteed loans. The directors personally guaranteed these loans, I don't see why GUST should be responsible for this. GUST will pay for the debt they accrued, its up to the Directors to be responsible for theirs.

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Well Galway United benefitted from those loans, so Galway United should pay them back.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Well Galway United benefitted from those loans, so Galway United should pay them back.

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Well that's open to debate, unlike other clubs who went through the mill, the best we got were relegation battles, while the rest got big European nights!

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Like I said, I want GUST to get into the league and I hope they can build up

But they will be already ahead of most LOI clubs if they don't have debt to service. If they start next year with a nice sponsorship deal with supermacs, a lovely stadium in Terryland and no/vastly reduced debts to service then they'll be in good shape.

I can see why clubs struggling to repay their own debts would see that as unfair

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Well that's the rub, and it's understandable, but at the same time I think those clubs know that their own best interests are served by continuing to service their own debts. The same supposed unfair advantage is available to them.

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Originally Posted by Spudulika

CD, the Irish attitude towards failure is deep rooted and is evident in our bankruptcy laws. We've been conditioned through centuries of being told to keep our heads down to just survive, anyone who's having a go is watched for when they'll go belly up. As Rovers were qualifying for the EL groups there were posts on here that decried it, and just as they played their last game the Indo (admittedly not a beacon for Irishness) rubbished the achievement. How many people are waiting for Rovers to blow up and waste their money to say - see, told you they'd do it. It's not begrudgery, it's not like in Russia where you envy your neighbour so you wreck his house to make it look like yours, it's just not a mix of not wanting to see a neighbour go bust, not wanting to be left behind and also being forced to lift yourself to compete. Abroad the Irish work hard, and at home we work hard, we just are a little mental.

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I saw Daniel McDonnell of the same rag had a nice dig at the author of the other article in his wrap-up piece on Rovers' European campaign. Fair play to him, as I'm fairly sure he's a Bohs fan.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

They're walking away with much less damage than they would have if any new holding company had to assume the debt (or portion thereof) left behind by the previous holding company if the new entity wants to assume the name and history of the old one.

My problem with this situation is that there isn't enough of a deterrent at the moment. Clubs can overspend, go broke, and re-emerge within a year as a debt-free club, especially if you don't own your ground. Nobody is saying that is a process clubs should aim for, nobody is saying it's not a bad thing, but it's not as painful as it might be.That's not fair on other clubs who are more determined, or just better at, keeping spending reasonable.

I don't think anybody has a problem with what GUST are doing - the problem lies in the ease with which a club can re-emerge debt free after overspending.

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Strictly speaking, they are assuming a portion of the debt as they're writing off their own loans to the previous board. And I imagine they will come to some terms with local businesses who are owed money, if the new club is going to continue to deal with them. The Revenue will have to suck it, and the banks, so there is a silver lining :)

I think it would be a different situation if a club run by a supporters trust went bust and tried to reform in the way GUST are doing - I don't think the FAI would allow that kind of moral hazard as there wouldn't be an effective deterrent in place. For a privately-owned club, though, I think the temptation to overspend and borrow excessively will be there regardless of what rules are in place. People who own football clubs are generally a bit mad.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I have a thought experiment for you.

Imagine you borrowed massively to buy a house during the boom (maybe you did, I don't know), but now you've lost your job and the house is worthless. You have two options: lose the house and owe the bank hundreds of thousands, or lose the house and declare bankruptcy. Which one is the reward? Do you think you deserve to be in a debt prison for the rest of your life?
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I have a thought experiment for you.

We both go for our dream home. We can both pay the asking price but I outbid you knowing that I am gambling that I can pay for it. You buy what you can afford and get a house that is considerably smaller. Both of us are in debt but I can't afford to pay it back.

Are you really saying that you are fine with me pushing up the price of the house so you end up with a smaller one and then a few months later I decided I can't pay for it? Do I deserve to have benefited from a bigger and nicer house that I couldn't afford but you lived within your means and ended up with a smaller one?

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Originally Posted by gufc2000

I don't see why GUST should be responsible for this. GUST will pay for the debt they accrued, its up to the Directors to be responsible for theirs.

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I would agree with this as long as GUST are setting up a brand new club with absolutely no connection with Galway United and have no intention of having any connection in the future

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Originally Posted by Louth4sam

I have a thought experiment for you.

We both go for our dream home. We can both pay the asking price but I outbid you knowing that I am gambling that I can pay for it. You buy what you can afford and get a house that is considerably smaller. Both of us are in debt but I can't afford to pay it back.

Are you really saying that you are fine with me pushing up the price of the house so you end up with a smaller one and then a few months later I decided I can't pay for it? Do I deserve to have benefited from a bigger and nicer house that I couldn't afford but you lived within your means and ended up with a smaller one?

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That's exactly how the world works though, on a larger scale. And I have a house to show for it and you're bankrupt, so yes it is fair.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

That's exactly how the world works though, on a larger scale. And I have a house to show for it and you're bankrupt, so yes it is fair.

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But I'm not bankrupt. I Just change my name and claim I've just been born. I can now go and buy another house whilst you are still in debt and paying legacy house prices. I then buy my old name and life back in a years time.

This does not happen in the real world does it?

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Originally Posted by gufc2000

Well that's open to debate, unlike other clubs who went through the mill, the best we got were relegation battles, while the rest got big European nights!

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Well boo f**king hoo. That's football. So because your club wasted money and spent stupidly and got no major reward it's all ok to wipe your debts now?

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

That's exactly how the world works though, on a larger scale. And I have a house to show for it and you're bankrupt, so yes it is fair.

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But would it be fair he got to keep his big house with the debt wiped off and you still pay for yours?

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Originally Posted by Sean South

Well boo f**king hoo. That's football. So because your club wasted money and spent stupidly and got no major reward it's all ok to wipe your debts now?

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It was meant as a tongue in cheek comment, calm down will ya. If ya can't have a small joke now and then, something is seriously wrong.

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Originally Posted by osarusan

My problem with this situation is that there isn't enough of a deterrent at the moment. Clubs can overspend, go broke, and re-emerge within a year as a debt-free club, especially if you don't own your ground. Nobody is saying that is a process clubs should aim for, nobody is saying it's not a bad thing, but it's not as painful as it might be.That's not fair on other clubs who are more determined, or just better at, keeping spending reasonable.

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This is the nub of the argument for me.

For the last page or so, this thread is no longer just about any Galway incarnation, but the league in general (or maybe the property market!!). It’s not just too easy for clubs to reappear after a short spell in purgatory – it’s also too easy for directors who were responsible for problems in the first place to walk away. Running a club seems to be Football Manager with Real People for some directors – but you can’t wipe the slate clean by exiting the real version without saving a bad result.

When did anybody here hear of a former club director being restricted by the Director of Corporate Enforcement for running a club into the ground? OK, it won’t have the same effect on a director who is a PAYE employee, but for those who own their own businesses it would be catastrophic. Hit the fly-by-nights and the inept where it hurts them, and you’ll see a different type of leadership at clubs - one that does the job properly because failure will follow them.

Spud made a point about Irish people keeping our heads down to survive, but if a few clubs or supporters trusts put their heads above the parapet we could weed out undesirables from boards. Unfortunately, I sense a bit of ‘there but for the grace of God go I’ about this: nobody’s going to kick up a rumpus if they could be the next to suffer the repercussions.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I saw Daniel McDonnell of the same rag had a nice dig at the author of the other article in his wrap-up piece on Rovers' European campaign. Fair play to him, as I'm fairly sure he's a Bohs fan.

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McDonnell's a Dundalk man, and to be fair, the vast majority of the Irish media were generous in their praise for ROvers great achievments. One columnist in the indo, aside

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Originally Posted by Louth4sam

So instead of being punished they should be rewarded by getting their debts cleared?

In recent times you have Rovers, Cork, Derry, Drogs and now Galway who will likely get rewarded for not living within their means. Why should other clubs play by the rules?

Why not just fold all clubs at the end of the season, reform with a slight name change buy back history a season later build up debts and then repeat. Surely this would create the sustainable professional league that we all crave

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Cork and Derry went from European Football to First division as a result of their financial decisions, that is a punishment in my view. I agree its no punishment for Galway, they were in the 1st division anyway.

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Originally Posted by citybone

Cork and Derry went from European Football to First division as a result of their financial decisions, that is a punishment in my view. I agree its no punishment for Galway, they were in the 1st division anyway.

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So the punishment should be based on how decent your team was? That makes no sense?

Also Derry were automatically relegated for contract irregularites. Their financial woes were seperate.

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Originally Posted by citybone

Cork and Derry went from European Football to First division as a result of their financial decisions, that is a punishment in my view. I agree its no punishment for Galway, they were in the 1st division anyway.

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You make it sound like what ye did was honourable.

Technically ye were relegated that year, because everyone got bunked up one place when ye were discounted.