What's the relevance to this thread, Spud...
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
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What's the relevance to this thread, Spud...
Quote:
Originally Posted by shakermaker1982
That's what I feel too now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Trap had my qualified support last year but the signs are that things are getting worse and that "this man is not for turning". That said I think there is such an anti-Trap bandwagon building at home I'm inclined to offer him support again! I thought Tony O'Donoghue's RTE interview after the game was too aggressive and frankly insulting.
ya Tony thinks hes asking the questions "we all want to hear", when in fact all he did was interupt Trap every couple of seconds to ask another stupid qusetion. pathetic reporting. he does it after every game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Jaysus, ArdeeBhoy, man from my rodina (homeland) - I've been accused of being other people in the past - my other half even once told me I reminded her of her cousin, which might have been okay (indeed normal if I were from Kerry), but it was a girl she was referring to! But I think you looked at the wrong post. Or mixed up me and shakerman.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
On TOD,on a personal level I like the man, he's very good, passionate about football and LOI to the core (as well as Irish sports in general) and I'd almost forgive him for who he supports, but the last interview - I think there was something like you'd experience on skype, a delayed sound. Also Trap was peed off and it was never going to go well. Overall TOD came out worse as he was too assertive and not polite enough. Then again, do we want to see him making amore with Trap? (BBC reference).
On O'Donoghue's post match assault on Trap, I doubt if TO'D has the nous to or (moral?) courage to take the initiative himself for such an interview, probably he's just given the green light to take what has been said by the panelists and throw it at Trap and Tony makes an aggressive hames of it.
Trap looks to be stuck in a bad place in this 3rd campaign. If he makes a few changes then maybe, but after 5 years this recent talk of full backs who get forward is simply baffling.
"the support from two full-backs going up and down can make it easier. If you watch Germany, their defenders never stop running up and down the line"
It's as if he still doesn't know what the problem is and picking things out of the hat as if he's just discovered a possible angle to introduce, something which has been glaringly obvious for years. So, I'd say Trap is already looking lost in this 3rd campaign.
On a managerial level, I've been quite impressed with Lars Lagerback since he took over the Iceland job.
He's a good organizer/tactician and as a bonus can articulate his thoughts on the game in the post match press conferences. I don't know what he's being paid, but he did say the reports of €430k p/a were greatly exaggerated. In the last game against Norway, the supposedly cautious Lars took a leaf out of Del Bosque's book, dropped the two decent strikers and filled out the midfield. This had never been done before with this team. The game plan worked fine and he put a striker on after the hour mark to seal the victory. The 'passing through midfield' to 'hoof it up front' ratio was about 5 -1. But of course, it's the players, their attitude and ability who make any plan work.
The thing is we already have a full back like that and he's discouraged from playing his natural game. Ward might not be a great defender but he is the quickest player we have after McGeady and will run and run all day. Some might even say his positional sense is so bad that he might as well be half way down the pitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Stephen Kenny is free.
For what?
I'd replace him with this guy from Airplane 2. He'd be a lot cheaper and nobody would be able to tell the difference
https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/im...LUeZfpANCCv8QA
weddings and bar mitzvahs...Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
You'll have to do better than that...
:rolleyes:
When I say everything you type in an Ardee accent, it all becomes clear.Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
:rolleyes:
And??
Clearly everybody is entitled to their opinion and, for what it’s worth, here is mine.
Trappatoni is not the problem – he’s a symptom of the general malaise at the FAI. If we look at the managers during Delaney’s reign Mick McCarthy was turned on by the press, with Dumpty as cheerleader, and Delaney did not have the backbone to stand up and support him. He then treated Brian Kerr very shabbily and couldn’t wait to get rid of him, followed by the ‘World Class Management Team’ of Steve Staunton and Bobby Robson and finally (I hope) the marquee name of Giovanni Trappatoni.
I think this says more about Delaney and the FAI than it does about the managers. When Staunton was appointed it was all about money – the cheapest available – in order to be able to afford Delaney’s inflated salary??? Following the implosion of Staunton’s term it was important to get a well-known name. Why? Because John Delaney needed to justify his position, needed to take the pressure off himself over the appointment of Staunton. So we were fed the bull about teams being appointed to find the very best manager available so nobody could blame Delaney if it went wrong again.
The main point from all this is that we are not getting a manager appointed who is the best for Ireland and the Irish team – we are getting a manager appointed who is best for John Delaney and his ambitions or to deflect any criticism of John Delaney which is around at the time.
At the same time the CEO salary had risen from €150k to €440k, later to be reduced by 10% on two occasions so poor Long John has to survive on €360k per annum. The FAI is being run as a Dictatorship with any dissent resulting in instant dismissal or being pushed out of the in-crowd.
Trappatoni won’t go (without a payoff). The opportunity was there to wait until after the Euros to offer a new contract but Delaney wouldn’t wait although the dogs in the street could see Trappatoni was living on luck in the qualifiers. Delaney won’t sack him as if he does the guns will be out for Long John. At the moment Trappatoni is a buffer for Delaney – while Trap is there the press and fans will take aim at him rather than Delaney. As soon as he goes, until a new manager is appointed, John is in the limelight where he doesn’t want to be unless it is positive spin – “working 24/7 except while in Gdansk where he is entitled to some time off with his ‘extended’ family”. Remember the administration in the Euros was ‘world class’ with meetings at 9am every day (apart from when John had lost his shoes). Pity on-field didn’t run as much like clockwork.
When Dion Fanning questioned all this it was Dion who’s judgement was questioned – the FAI marketing spin machine went into overload to try to stop the Indo from printing. The interview was stopped on several occasions when Delaney didn’t like the line of questioning while his PR man stayed in the room shaking his head throughout. The attempted bullying of Dion was reminiscent of the worst excesses of Dubya Bush.
So when I say finally above I mean I hope it is the final appointment of Delaney. Trappatoni should go but there is no point is clearing out the monkeys until the organ-grinder is sorted.
With regard to the domestic league – clubs are going by the wayside while Long John takes a 10% pay cut. There was an opportunity to create a single league for the whole island but Delaney rejected this – he recognised the IFA would never pay it’s Chief Exec more than the Taoiseach even if he could wangle his way into the top position.
So we get rid of Pakie Bonner and Eoin Hand, people who had real jobs and worked hard for the Association while Long John surveys his ‘World-Class Administration’ and loses his shoes but his hands are perfectly manicured and there is not a hair out of place. But that’s what you need when you are hob-knobbing with such luminaries as Sepp Blatter (although Long John backed the wrong horse there) and Michel Platini.
Time to go John and take your yes-men with you…
Huh? I don't think anyone would disagree with there being a general malaise in the FAI, but their approach to Trapattoni is one of their more enlightened moves. Much as I disagree with Trap's general philosophy, I'm glad the FAI don't interfere in his running of the team and haven't sacked him on the back of public outrage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl Black
They were definitely too hasty in giving him a new contract but that is a general problem in Irish sport across all codes - we are crap at negotiating and always cave in when somebody suggests they have alternative suitors.
Wow, great first post Pearl Black!
Yeah charlie one of the FAI cheerleaders.......as always
Hardly cheerleading. I said they are crap apart from one specific thing they haven't ****ed up.
Great first post from Pearl Black, I have to agree with most of it. Its a sickening situation when you see Delaney milk the game in this country, while at the same time clubs up and down the country are starved of finances. The sad thing is that even when he is gone, the yes men who keep him in his lofty position, will themselves by vying to take his place, and all that goes with the job.
Who would I replace Trapp with?
Hmmm, with the current Welsh manager. Oh, hang on a second they lost 6-1 in Serbia.
Let me think, the Scottish manager. Oh, he has only got 2 points from the first two home games, including a game against Macedonia who Richard Sadlier scoffed at last Friday. I think we did the double over them last year.
I know, the Northern Ireland manager. Oops, they only drew at home with Luxemburg.
Perhaps the Swedish manager whose team led 1-0 at home over absolutely useless Kazakhstan who are 146 in the rankings up to the 90th minute. Hmmm, perhaps not.
Got it, the Portuguese manager whose team beat Azerbaijan 1-0 at home or the Spanish manager whose team won 0-1 in Georgia.
ANyone of these will do as a 2-1 in Kazakstan is unacceptable to mighty Ireland. Sack Trapp!!
We are a car crash on permanent repeat at the moment, hoofing the ball back to the opposition after 5 seconds of possession against better and lower mid-ranking teams and giving them the initiative. We have better personnel than the home nations bar England and comfortably beat them all last year, so the comparisons above aren't really valid. We should be doing better than we are at the moment. Trap has taken us as far as we can go under him, and we have actually being going backwards for close to a year now.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
A 4-4-2 with GW and KA in the middle, hoofing defenders and non-wingers on the wing just has to end. We need to keep the ball for more than 5 seconds against teams better than Oman and we need more bodies in the middle and more energy up front.
Who was the manager when we comfortably beat them? And we didn't comfortably beat the Scots. It was a close game. The Scottish team man for man and club for club are the equal of the Irish team. Many Irish fans seem to think we are a lot better than we are, made up as we are of second tier EPL players, some of whom aren't regulars and Championship players as well as players in the USA.Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
This picture brings these fans to mind:
Attachment 1885
If qualifying for tournaments is going backwards I'd be happy to accept that. Just be careful what you wish for. I have seen 20+ managers come and go at Hillsboro of whom 5 improved things. You say Trapp has brought us as far as we can go. How far do you think this Irish team can go?
I've spent the day on business in Glasgow. Man, I'd take our mood over theirs any day of the week.
I see Spain needed an 87th minute winner against Georgia last night.
As one friend said, at least we keep playing to the final whistle. My opinion hasn't changed - the approach needs freshening up because I think Austria (gave Germany a really tough game) and Sweden will be tough opponents and whilst the result on Friday was all-important, familiar failings were revealed again.
I'd be surprised if anyone is happy for everything to stay as it is.
No, it wasn't. He was on €200k, and Robson was on the same again. Cheaper than Trapattoni certainly, but not cheap. McCarthy and Kerr had been on broadly similar money. You're entitled to your own opinion, not your own facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl Black
You must have gone to bed early! They won 3-0 in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
I don't think I made any comparison to McCarthy or Kerr's salaries - I said he was the cheapest available. Now I'm not aware of anybody being interviewed at the time who was cheaper but maybe you do. If so, please enlighten me.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
But if you read my argument carefully, you'll realize that I deliberately said for close to a year now, thus deliberately excluding the qualification group! (If people want to get excited about beating Estonia, then that's their choice.)Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
However, the group stage too was evidence of going backwards: not a single good performance (Slovakia away about the best of a bad lot), giving the initiative back to everybody apart from Andorra most of the time in most of the games. Remember: we took 3 points out of 12 off the top two seeds in that group! We qualified by beating Armenia twice (the away win was a good grind, admittedly) and by Armenia beating Slovakia twice - again, if all that's something to get excited about...
How about: Keeping the ball for more than 5 seconds? Playing in a shape that gives us a chance? Picking fit players who are in form?Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
And concentrating on the one-off difficulties of Sweden, Portugal or Spain(!!!!) to justify the present set-up is a bit rich. Serious analysis considers a long-term trend over a few years, not the one-off blips of some of the best teams in the world (Portugal, Spain) or of those who consistently box way above their weight (Sweden).
Results wise - how far do you think the team can go and what's your minimum expectation?Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
I don't have to specify exact results and group positions, that's ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by barney
I'd like to see us competitive and giving top teams a decent game (hasn't happened since Paris in a competitive game) and taking the initiative for longer periods against mid-ranking teams, especially at home.
We are not world-beaters, but we're not doing ourselves justice at the moment. I'm more interested in us giving ourselves a chance and giving the fans something to get enthusiastic about. And anyway, if you are fixated on results, they have been poor too now in recent years no matter what your perspective.
Would you put playing pretty (or your interpretation of pretty) football ahead of getting to a major tournament?
You're being a bit vague.Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
Stuff like "give top teams a decent game", "taking initiative", "not doing ourselves justice", "giving ourselves a chance" is all very subjective. Do you think Trap has taken us as far as he can results-wise? If so, how much better do you think this team can do? In this group, where do you think we could finish? Where would be an acceptable place to finish?
On the whole, results haven't really been that poor. Yeah the Euros were bad but we got a very tough draw against teams I'd expect to beat us in the cold light of day.
Don't get me wrong, I'm questioning Trap myself but I just don't buy people saying "he's taken us as far as he can" without anything to back it up. It's just a cliche like blaming a lack of "passion and pride in the shirt" for bad performances.
Who said anything about "pretty"?Quote:
Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Can we discuss performances and players and (if you want) results instead of hounding and attacking posters and twisting their words.... I don't see any of you challenging my assertion that even results have been poor recently. If you're all so happy with Trap, tell us what there is to be content with. Which meaningful games in the last few years have been satisfactory? Beating Estonia?
Surely that is the definition of vague. If not, which recent results have been good?Quote:
Originally Posted by barney
Of course we had tough opponents in the Euro finals, but Ireland teams in the past rarely capitulated and yielded possession and initiative like we have done versus Russia twice, Croatia, Spain and Italy. We had better performances versus big teams under Jack, Mick, even Kerr (France away). We haven't seen anything like that in three years under Trap. I think that's specific enough.
I'll commit to a standardQuote:
Originally Posted by barney
All that matters is our position in the group at the end.
First place would obviously be amazing, perhaps would be our greatest ever football achievement (given the players at our disposal)
Second would be above par and a success for the manager irrespective of what happened in a play off.
Third place would be a bit below par. It would depend on the exact nature. A close race with eg Sweden for second would be ok and just about acceptable. A big gap with us vying for fourth would be a disappointment.
Fourth or below - Failure and an indictment of the manager.
I can appreciate an argument put forward that we don't have the abundance of world class players of yesteryear. Jesus at one point under Jack we had the guts of 3-4 top Liverpool players (best club side in Europe at the time), Paul McGrath, Liam Brady, Kevin Moran etc. I can also appreciate that on paper, Trap has gotten very good results in qualifying against teams that we would traditionally have dropped points against. I would have been delighted with a 2-1 win in Kazakhstan before the game.
However, what does get to me is that we have some very very promising young talents that are just not been given the chance to shine. I'm not saying that they are the next Brady or Giles, but they look like they could have a good future.
I mean bar Wilson can anyone realistically see any of those young lads getting a chance in the next game. When Coleman was tearing it up at Everton, Trap was indifferent to him and appeared almost eager to pick out faults in his game. When McCarthy was playing great at Wigan, it was something similar. I saw something where Trap mentioned concerns over Ciaran Clark's defensive errors as a reason for him not being picked. Valid enough point going on what I've seen this season, but surely he could have been more positive about a highly talented young lad that picked Ireland over England and could have a great future in the game. The handling of McClean was also a disgrace. The fact that we all know that he had to make a grovelling apology is surely not a good thing. His talk up of Brady was out of character. The cynic in me would say that it was done to well and truely put McClean in his place. This contrasts so much with how Mick would have dealt with the young lads.
The way we play is also a source of annoyance for me. The ball was continually lumped up to Walters in the Kazakhstan game, just like it would have been in about 20 games under Trap. So utterly depressingly predictible. At times, it was a pleasure to watch us against Oman (admittedly not a great team). Lads like Meyler were trying to be constructive and yes they did lose the ball a number of times, but they tried to play the game the way it should be played. That game offered us a glimpse of a possibly fine future for us.
However, Trap will revert to type against Germany and we'll be back to the same old structure. We might nick a draw, heck we might nick a one off win, but I really can't see how world class players won't work us out and I do fear this game. Indeed, I think we might have a better chance in Germany, where our backs to the wall approach could produce heroics.
I suppose all I want from Trap is that he puts out the best 11 that we have on the pitch. I really don't think he has done that and I think his holding of grudges is a large part of that. This to a large part explains the indifference of the general public to the Irish football team.
That's reasonable in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
Second would be above par but third would be below par? You're a difficult man to please!Quote:
Originally Posted by cavan_fan
Ok here are the results post Paris, since Paris seems to be viewed as some sort of high water mark (either Excellent, Good, Average, Bad, Very Bad). These are results only and not performances, as you've said results only, so it doesnt factor in how well or badly we played in each game. It's using only matches verfied by FIFA.com, so playing the Tuscan reserve XI and Nottingham Forest's B team are ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by p2011
(N) Brazil - L 0-2 - Average result, defeat against a better team on a neutral venue
(H) Paraguay - W 2-1 - Good result, beat a team that reached WC Quarters a month later, but in the context of a home friendly it's good but not excellent
(H) Algeria - W 3-0 - Again good, beating a poor team at home, but Algeria were hard to break down in the WC, drawing with England and only losing by a single goal to Slovenia and USA (the former after being down to 10 men)
(H) Argentina - L 1-0 - Bad result, against a strong team but still a defeat at home.
(A) Armenia - W 1-0 - Good result, beating a potentially weaker team, but away from home in difficult conditions (distance heat etc)
(H) Andorra - W 3-1 - Average result, beating a weaker team, but reasonably comfortably as expected
(H) Russia - L 3-2 - Bad result, lost to a strong team but at home where ideally we would have got at least a draw
(A) Slovakia - D 1-1 - Average result, drew to a team that made it to knockouts of WC, but a team of similar standard to us.
(H) Norway - L 1-2 - Very bad result, lost to a team probably slightly worse than us at home.
(H) Wales - W 3-1 - Average result, beat a team we were expected to beat.
(H) Macedonia - W 2-1 - Average result, home win against a slightly weaker team
(H) Uruguay - L 3-2 - Bad result, lost to team signficantly stronger than us, but at home
(H) Norther Ireland - W 5-0 - Good result, we beat a weaker team but by a high margin
(H) Scotland - W 1-0 - Average result, beat a similar (maybe slightly weaker) team at home, as expected
(A) Macedonia - W 2-0 - Good result, beat a weaker team but away from home in a difficult venue
(N) Italy - W 2-0 Very good result, beat a strong team by 2 goals in neutral venue
(H) Croatia - D 0-0 Average result, drew with a stronger team at home
(H) Slovakia - D 0-0 Bad result, home draw against a team of similar ability
(A) Russia - D 0-0 Good result, draw with a stronger team away from home
(A) Andorra - W 2-0 Average, beat a team we expected to bear
(H) Armenia - W 2-1 Average, again home win against slightly weaker team
(A) Estonia - W 4-0 Good result, comprehensive win against a weaker team, but away and by big margin
(H) Estonia - D 1-1 Average result, weaker team but a result that suited us given 1st leg
(H) Czech - D 1-1 Bad result, not winning against a similar team at home
(H) Bosnia - W 1-0 Good result, beating a strong team at home
(N) Croatia - L 1-3 Bad result, losing to a stronger team in a tournament
(N) Spain - L 4-0 Very bad result, losing by a big margin to a stronger team
(N) Italy - L 2-0, Bad result, losing to a stronger team.
(A) Serbia - D 0-0 Good result, draw with a similar strength team away from home
(A) Kazakstan - A 2-1 Good result, win away against weak team but again distance being a factor.
(N) Oman - W 4-1 Good result, won against very weak team but by big margin.
Overall the results alone pan out to be pretty average, not spectacular but not woeful either.
I think a lot of people here are just arguing for argument's sake. P2011 makes some good points I think and he's not in the looney "Indo-inspired Trap out now" camp by any means. I think OwlsFan is being disingenuous by taking the line that we qualified & we're not Scotland line of argument, as if there's no degree of nuance allowed in this argument. (btw I scrolled through the Scottish starting XI vs Macedonia and we are a better team in probably 7 or 8 out of 11 positions). Also, nobody is calling for pretty football over more effective football.
I think the key observation is that what was effective in campaign one appears to be coming less effective, despite the results. Some players are not looking happy in their positions and most of us - keyboard warriors admittedly - think that adjustment rather than wholesale change is needed. Time will tell if this is right or not and I'll be perfectly happy with another 20 or 21 points this campaign even if hoofball is the way we do it. However, I fear that team selections and tactics will come up short this time and an adjustment in the approach would improve our likelihood of success. I suspect that's what p2011 is trying to say too, but he's being distracted by fallacious argument.
:) I did. I left in the 85th minute when they were still only 1-0 up. I didn't realise they were as good as us for late goals.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
As regards "the media" having an anti-Trapp agenda, certainly most journalists are against him by now while Bill and his cohorts on the RTE Panel, until the last programme, have also been very much anti-Trapp. I can see the reasons for why the journalists and many fans are against him. I have 5 other friends who have been following Ireland for donkeys years and 3 of us support Trapp and 3 are against. Such is the schism but as far as I can see nearly all the media is against him. Individual journalists may have agendas to support their stance (e.g. by saying McLean had a great game against Oman yet Trapp won't pick him) but by and large they are reflecting a ground swell of opinion.
He doesn't select the "people's choice" of players. He doesn't play keep ball. His communication with the players is apparently bad. Personally, much of this irritates me but while we continue our amazing unbeaten away run in the qualifying campaigns and are challenging for qualification, I will support the manager because somehow I think he knows best.
If we start losing to Austria/Sweden then it's time for "thanks for the memories" and enter the new manager to enjoy the wrath of the RTE Panel, but the support of the media and fans provided he selects the people's choices and plays the ball on the ground but should the results go against him.....well, I think you know the rest.