i work for one of their sponsors and the lads only have to go to HR and they get whatever free tickets they want for the games,in fact if they cant get them in time they wont go down and pay on the gateQuote:
Originally Posted by White Horse
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i work for one of their sponsors and the lads only have to go to HR and they get whatever free tickets they want for the games,in fact if they cant get them in time they wont go down and pay on the gateQuote:
Originally Posted by White Horse
Based on the reports linked here, Fingal could find themselves in trouble. All new clubs should follow what clubs are doing in the A Championship. Better off working gradually and build up a club. Rome wasn't built in a day.
It does seem that the answer to the original post is "No" though. Looks like Bohs will beat them to it.
The High Court has approved the appointment of an interim examiner to Pierse Construction. Counsel for Pierse Construction Rossa Fanning said that the company had suffered a precipitous collapse in turnover and a reduced cash flow due to a downward spiral in a demand for houses. He said that the company was owed €30m in bad debts. This included a bad debt of €16m from Gannon Homes, which is now in the National Asset Management Agency.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1012/pierse.html
Sporting Fingal's property developer benefactor Mr. Gannon has been cited in the High Court as a major driver behind the collapse of a major construction company.
Is this another reminder that Fingal are built on quicksand?
The worst thing that will happen is that they have to cut their cloth for next season, anything else is simply wishful thinking and opposition "fans" glorying in a club's difficulties. Getting into Europe will mean enough money to come in to finish outside of relegation next season, the worst thing is they lose some players and survive or battle to finish in a relegation play-off. Non-story that will be picked up on by a journo visiting the site and turned into fodder against our league again!
With the backing of Fingal County Council, I think Sporting Fingal will have a sound long term future even if they do take a step back for a while. It'll be better to take a step back than go bust. FINGAL County Council have a plan for a major new sporting facility in Lusk. A move like that will be good for Irish football and will be a rival to Shamrock Rovers set-up in Tallaght. If the clubs integrates successfully in their community they'll have a successful future.
Especially if they keep playing Rovers :(
I think that's very naive, Spud. Gannon gave them E750k last season, and they still lost E50k after winning the Cup. So there's probably a hole of a million there all told. Qualification for Europe - if achieved - has commonly been noted on here not to be the windfall people think it is. E90k less the costs of going to the mid-Atlantic for a few days? Add in the effects of a weaker team - crowds further dropping, prize money going down - and I think you've very much understated Gannon's importance. They mayn't go broke alright - unless they've players contracted to beyond when Gannon puts money in - but I don't see anything to suggest that the entity without Gannon (and, presumably, Anglo) has enough about it to survive in the Premier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Also, in light of Gannon's E750k contribution to SF last year, it clearly isn't a non-story that he's forfeiting on millions of debt.
Also, without knowing about the Fingal situation, all county councils have been told to make severe cutbacks. There'll be nothing new constructed for a while. They'll be left in Morton for a while
There are lots of ifs in this business plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by legendz
Without Gannon and Anglo, Fingal are left with a very small paying fan base and Fingal Council.
With public finances being devastated, I cannot see how Fingal Council will be able to justify pumping hundered of thousands (at least) per year into a football club. While I admire the work the club do in promoting the game, their appeal to the north Dublin public has been miniscule. There is little prospect of an extra couple of thousand paying fans turning up to keep the club going.
It is also worth bearing in mind that paying for attendance is the least that fans of other clubs do. There are "patron" type schemes and voluntary work that adds enormously to keeping a club afloat.
I find it difficult to see a future for the club, nevermind a successful one.
Not naive Pineapple Stu, just a fact that they won't go belly up because one man won't throw in a large amount of money. Which is the stroy being pushed. Belly up is over and out, good night and god bless. Fingal Co Co won't be too keen to see their project fail, though I agree 100% that one pivot might be how long players are contracted for.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Clubs with a small following survive in Irish football for a multiplicity of reasons, we only have to look at my old alma mater and your side, UCD, for proof of that. If SF can move along similiar lines, perhaps with DCU, then there is a strong possibility of survival in the Premier. At worse they plod around in the 1st for a few years, building up their youth structures and when the time is right Lusk goes ahead and they re-emerge with a solid side that gets back up into the top flight. All clubs are in precarious positions (even Shamrock Rovers - if SDCC refuse to sign the lease.....).
this, for me, is a major point in the story. Any idea that the club had of moving to a new stadium and building up a support base there is probobly in the dim and distant future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
Would be surprised if S Fingal have not factored in the loss of the Gannon money for next season (and beyond) but hope the plan "B" does not revolve around any expected rise in support in a "new" stadium.
I am not aware of any great liabilities on the club (unlike Bohs 4+ million) so this allows them some flexibility to "cut their cloth"....... presuming of course they have not commited to long term contracts with players.
If for example all players were out of contract at the end of the season what is to stop Fingal simply recruiting on the basis of the available budget for 2011 ? I appreciate they are likely to have some contractoral obligations but to suggest their options are the current business model or bust would appear a little pessimistic.
I think we're in agreement on that so. What I do think we disagree on is just how strong their foundations are. People are talking about this Lusk thing and how sorted they'll be when they go out there and how the Council are right behind them; I just see another Drogheda story - money being poured in to make a successful football club be at the centre of a plan to build loads of houses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Maybe I'm wrong obviously, but I'll remain sceptical.
I think it's time to take off the blinkers and get real. Sporting Fingal have neither a fan base nor tradition and they simply will not be in existence in 10-20 years. Similarly the brain boxes who felt it would be a good idea to allow the likes of Mervue United and Salthill Devon to join the league should take a bow as they play to home crowds of considerably less than 100.
The most important thing in terms of improving the League of Ireland is increasing attendances as this will help to improve clubs revenue streams which can subsequently be reinvested in better facilities and eventually better players. Clubs with neither fans nor potential will not help! So in summary Fingal will go bang, it's simply a question of when and the League will be no worse off without them.
Its only a matter of time that Gannon's funding goes and Sporting Franchise are short at least 750,000.
Then Fingal County Council is no safe bet either.
In the current economic climate CC's are being told to cut back massively.
Im afraid Sporting Franchise will be simply seen as the luxury it is.
If not now maybe in a year or two when the CC is re-elected and those who had a fetish for having their own local club will be gone, most likely being Fianna Fail heads.
One way or another I would be utterly shocked in SF lasted more than a decade.
The idea of a football ladder is that clubs can build at a certain level. If Fingal can't maintain their Premier status in the next few seasons, there's no reason they can't cut their cloth to suit there needs in the First Division for a few years and look to build. On Mervue and Salthill, if the First Division is beyond them, well if they drop to the A Championship they might wind up back at their level but at least they will be in existence and they too can look to build at that level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Chief
I would see two things being important for the league. At the top in the Premier filtering down to the First Division, clubs getting better support and being able to run a pro set-up and have better facilities and players.
At the other end then in the A Championship, I would see it important for new clubs and regions to get involved in the league, being able to build up their base at their level while improving the game and promoting the league in their area. If football comes on in Mayo, Kerry, Carlow and Offaly, it surely will be a good thing.
Pineapple I do have my own gritted teeth feeling on how they were going to finance the stadium and it's surrounds, especially when it's a developer involved, however writing off a club because they're new, or don't have a large following, neither of those reasons can wash anywhere. If so then Monaghan don't deserve to be in existence as they don't have 4 figure attendances, or getting rid of Bray, or Cork City Foras, or Derry. There is enough to go around for all clubs and if only there was a strong development plan in place for football in Ireland then all would be well. Not all the blame can go on the FAI's feeble shoulders, clubs behave irresponsibly because of any number of reasons, while players will get what they can for as long as they can and fans will come and go with a core always suffering through. It's life as the LOI knows it.
Absolutely. Wexford Youths, for example, are doing grand, it seems. But I'm not sceptical about Fingal for those reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
I wouldn't write a club off because they are new, but I disagree with previous posters in relation to the level of following. If a club does not attract a large crowd, or have the potential to do so, they should not be allowed into the league. My own club, Finn Harps are not currently doing good crowds because they are going through bad times but they have shown over several decades that they have the potential to attract big crowds when they are going well. Several clubs cannot say the same. I note Monaghan were cited above as an example of a club who should not be discriminated against because their crowds are poor. Why not? They bring nothing to the party and have little or no attraction for sponsors and television.
In several previous threads I have listed 6 or 7 clubs who should be removed from the league and the idea of a promotion/ relagation play-off to secure access to senior football should be scrapped.
I appreciate I have gone slightly off track but I feel Fingal need to be considered in the context of a wider debate about the excessive number of clubs in the League.
Finally the artificial backing Fingal receive from the developer and the Council skews things badly as other teams have to compete for players signatures with them and this forces wages upwards at a time when clubs can ill afford it.
Totally agree that without Gannon, Anglo and cutback in Fingal CC monies that SF cannot operate the current business model. There is a long way between where they are and having to wind up completely - could they not operate next season on a part time basis like many other clubs do (subject to contract commitments) ?Quote:
Originally Posted by White Horse
I have not seen/heard yet why SF must either be full time outfit (as now) or collapse completely :confused:. In my own view there are likely to be no "full time" (52 week teams) next season *that does not mean they are all going belly up.
* contracts permitting :rolleyes:
Same argument RE crowds has been made about UCD especially for years, makes no sense to me as they have proven them selves on the pitch (where eligibility shouild be decided) and have found themselves a niche developing many young players. As long as clubs prove themselves on the pitch then it is ludicrous to suggest they should be removed from the league. 3/4 "big" well supported clubs does not constitute a league.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Chief
Please explain why the money Fingal got from the developer and council "skews things badly" when it was OK for Pats (for example) to be bankrolled to a much greater extent ? It is up to each club to decide how much they will spend on wages irrespective of what other clubs are doing. many of the clubs you feel have no place in the new world order did not join the "wage race" and have/will outlasted many of the traditionally bigger clubs.
Clubs can't be stopped joining the league based on crowds, that'd be ridiculous. Criteria has to be met to join the First Division and once that is met in terms of ground, covered seating at a certain number etc. etc., no club should be stopped.
If some clubs suffer a fall from grace it's tough but that is sport. Cobh have had to rebuild in the A Championship, if other clubs have to, they'll have to get on with it.
On Fingal, I understand the concept for the club was effectively created by Fingal County Council as part of a long-term development plan for Soccer in Fingal. This is what any new club should look to do, develop the gloabal game in their area.
And that's what football is all about? Depressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Chief
Monaghan are properly run, sustainable, having a successful season, and giving their fans and community something to be proud of.
may i refer you to the league table.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Chief
If the 'big' clubs ran themselves properly, there would be no need to discriminate against smaller teams, they'd find their own level naturally.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Chief
It's not like Monaghan are taking massive amounts of support away from Bohemians and Cork City. Maybe Bray have a few fans who would otherwise have followed Shams, but the point is that none of these clubs are hurting the league. In fact, they're hurting the league a lot less than the high-profile clubs who implode, so why deny their right to play at the highest level? Especially when one of the biggest barstool argments against supporting the league in places like Westmeath, Mayo and Tipp is that there's no team local to them to identify with
RubbishQuote:
Originally Posted by Big Chief
Football isnt all about big gates and sponsorships
UCD and Fingal bring good football played in the right spirit to the LOI. UCD are very well run as a small club.
Mervue and S Devon are in the league on merit.
And its not exactly like Finn harps are a model club, how many more community raffles and draws will you have in the future to save the club!!!!
Identity is important. If regions don't have a club they can identify with, the game will suffer. I could never imagine Mayo supporting Galway or Sligo, at least they have some foot on the football ladder now with Castlebar.Quote:
Originally Posted by peadar1987
Marinobohs,
Firstly it is not acceptable for St Pat's Athletic or any other team to be artificially funded and I do not condone the way they have spent money ridiculously. Whilst I have no personal love for Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians, Derry, Dundalk etc I still can't help but feel if those clubs were to disappear and we were to be left with Fingal, UCD, Monaghan and the likes the league would be a much poorer place for it.
Legendz,
Of course clubs can and indeed should be prevented from entering a league if they can't drum up decent support. I can see little attraction in allowing teams with no fans or a few dozen at best being allowed to enter the highest echelons of football in this country.
Micls,
Football is about entertainment and atmosphere. If you have had the pleasure of attending a game in Monaghan recently you'll find both in fairly short supply. If crowds improve, armosphere improves and similarly the standard of fare on offer normally does likewise.
Passerby,
League tables change from one year to the next, in a longer term vision for the league I wouldn't get too caught up in the here and now. I would have thought the fact that more Harps fans were in attendance at Gortakeegan recently, to support a very poor team, than locals who bothered to show up to watch a team riding high in the league says it all. No fans, no good!
The point has been raised that football should be about more than television and sponsors. Perhaps this would have some merit were it not for the fact that football clubs operate in the real world where they are actually businesses and, although some of them have sidestep to avoid this issue, bills have to be paid and financial commitments met. Consequently every penny counts and teams with no fans do not make the league attractive from the point of view of enticing sponsorship and TV monies. If all clubs were capable of playing to good crowds then the money coming in would increase as the proposition of involvement with the League becomes more attractive to businesses.
It has further been suggested that Monaghan and the likes do not draw supporters away from the bigger clubs. Perhaps not but they do ensure that the prize money and sponsorship money has been spread more thinly to ensure they receive a slice of the pie. Fewer clubs is the way forward.
Finally for those inclined to criticise Finn Harps and the financial mismanagement of the club, I agree entirely. The club have been poorly managed in previous years and are certainly not to be held up as any kind of model in that regard. The fact does remain however they have potential, more than quite a few others can boast.
Bohs are only perceived as a big club because they spent lots of money becoming something they're not. I don't think the Premier is any worse off for not having Shels in it, for example. I think that line gets trotted out far too often.
How entertaining Monaghan are to watch has absolutely no relevance to a Finn Harps fan, by and large (except when you're watching Monaghan, obviously).
Small clubs aren't hurting anyone in the league. I thought we'd moved on from that baseless notion.
[QUOTE=Big Chief;1412022]Marinobohs,
Firstly it is not acceptable for St Pat's Athletic or any other team to be artificially funded and I do not condone the way they have spent money ridiculously. Whilst I have no personal love for Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians, Derry, Dundalk etc I still can't help but feel if those clubs were to disappear and we were to be left with Fingal, UCD, Monaghan and the likes the league would be a much poorer place for it.
Most LOI fans dont want to see any club go belly up (does appear a certain facination with it on FOOT.IE at times) and in my opinion the League can ill affoed to lose any clubs - including Fingal UCD etc. Places in the Prem etc should be decided on the pitch not the stands/terraces.
Would disagree with you RE Pats spending (3/4 years back) they had it to spend so why shouldnt they ? Did themselves or the League no harm even though it was hardly a success. That other clubs less well (financially) supported got into a bidding war in their own fault not Pats.
Bohs are perceived as a big club based on history, success and the central role of Dalymount Park in Irish football. No amount of revisionism is going to change those simple facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The Premier is poorer for the loss of Shels (likewise Cork and Derry). Some LOI fans aspire to something bigger than the Leinster Senior League.
Once the league is decided anywhere other than on the pitch (with the obvious exceptions of licensing criteria such as financial stability and ground safety), it loses its credibility. Why stop at barring small clubs who have earned their place on merit. Why not decide promotion to the Premier League on average attendance. Why not just award the title to Shams?Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Chief
the position in the tables are not just indicitive of our better football but better management of our club and not just this year but every year if i was narrow minded i could point out that your inability to harness the obivous support and run a steady ship should exclude you from being in the league of ireland
as for potential ive been hearing that old chestnut for years with no end product. no more licenses for potential.
oh and dont kid yourself you brought down about 20 fans to a game with 320 in attendance.
Bohs are a big club based on decades of amateur status and re-applying to join the league? Sorry, don't agree. Sure even the older Rovers fans will tell you the Bohs/Rovers rivalry is a recent invention, borne of Drumcondra's demise and Bohs finally starting to win some games around the 80s.Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
The things that Shels brought to the league - crowds of 2000, full-time football, former internationals, European success - were all a direct result of their unsustainable overspending. That was never going to keep up, so to have had it stopped can't really be considered a loss to the league. Ditto Bohs, by the way.Quote:
The Premier is poorer for the loss of Shels (likewise Cork and Derry). Some LOI fans aspire to something bigger than the Leinster Senior League.
You can take the moral high ground with your "aspiring" all you want; we've seen what's happened each and every LoI club to aspire to unattainable dreams.
Why is it poorer though? These clubs where being run absolutely shockingly and in Derry's case they cheated with dual contracts. How does having clubs like this in a top division benefit the top division?Quote:
Originally Posted by marinobohs
Their fans are sorely missed alright but IMO that is not a basis to say that the Premier is a poorer place without these clubs. At present these clubs do not deserve their place in the Premier so it cannot be a poorer league without them in it.
I personally think the League would be a poorer place without the likes of Bray and UCD in it. We are youth development focused clubs and pretty much supply the rest of the league with some of the best young talent in the country, we run tight ships and are virtually ever in the news for the wrong reasons. This is our 6th season in the Premier after having 19 odd years of being a yo-yo club, we have worked our holes off to try and stablise the club and work within very small budgets. We 100% deserve our place in this League.
Artificially funded? nothing artificial about it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Chief
Pats are funded the same way 99% of clubs in the world are. mixture of income, fundraising and director investment
As has been said 100s of times. pats have been under budget the alst few years. Where the budget comes from (whether its Pats, Fingal, Bohs or anyone else) shouldn't matter to opposition fans
Yet another thread derailed by the notion that by excluding the 'minnows' from the LOI, the game will be improved. As Mr.A said, let every team find its level naturally. The fact that Longford survive in the LOI with an average (according to Stu's thread) of 236 reflects badly on the league, not them. The fact that a team like Limerick can get only 629 souls on average to our home games from a city of thousands doesn't say much for us, despite our 'potential', which has seen us break the record for the longest period in Irish football's bottom flight.
There is a league structure in place, and Mervue and Salthill got to the LOI through it. They're here on merit. They should only be replaced on merit.
And finally, if we're taking teams out of the equation that aren't attractive to the general public or to sponsors, then there wouldn't be a single team left in the LOI.
Thats about it really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spudulika
Are all your players on 1 year deals? May not be that easy to cut your cloth if they're not.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lep