The Republic of China are known as Chinese Taipei by FIFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedser
(link)
Printable View
The Republic of China are known as Chinese Taipei by FIFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedser
(link)
Fair point, but again because of political pressure from a powerful country (China in this case), rather than because of a need to avoid confusion between two teams of similar names.Quote:
Originally Posted by holidaysong
True, but I notice that particular excerpt is entitled "Verification of the Players’ Identities" - is there by any chance a separate section regarding verifying players' eligibility for a team? It's very curious that they insist on a passport rather than some other government-issued ID document, e.g. Driving Licence. Generally speaking, you only need to produce a passport when you have to prove your nationality as well as identity.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Anyway, the fact remains that Tony Cascarino claims he had to get an Irish passport or would no longer be eligible, and even Mr Parker mentioned that FIFA were trying to insist the NI players hold British passports a few years ago. As such, even though it's not stated in that particular rule, there is evidence that FIFA have used passports to verify players' nationality. And common sense alone will tell you that FIFA would require some sort of proof of nationality, I simply don't believe they just make the assumption that players are eligible unless someone objects.
Possibly, I only did a brief searchQuote:
Originally Posted by Nedser
They did bring in some ruling when Qatar started handing out passports to Brazilians playing in the national league, also if they just made the assumption a player was eligible, Franck Quedrue and Anthony Gerrard would probably have been cappedQuote:
Originally Posted by Nedser
There is a separate section dealing with eligibility, the much debated eligibility statutes :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedser
Re the passport id thing, either FIFA gave out the instruction that the player must produce the passport of the team he is playing for, or the IFA instructed (or both) that their players must have a UK passport. Either way FIFA adjusted to the Irish situation to accept that a player can have the "wrong" passport and still be fully eligible.
Remember, a passport is not proof of eligibility. The federation have to be responsible for eligibility.
Cas was not eligible until he became a citizen. NI born are already citizens.Quote:
Anyway, the fact remains that Tony Cascarino claims he had to get an Irish passport or would no longer be eligible, and even Mr Parker mentioned that FIFA were trying to insist the NI players hold British passports a few years ago. As such, even though it's not stated in that particular rule, there is evidence that FIFA have used passports to verify players' nationality. And common sense alone will tell you that FIFA would require some sort of proof of nationality, I simply don't believe they just make the assumption that players are eligible unless someone objects
Cas acquired an Irish nationality and maybe it is understood or required that he should have successfully obtained an Irish passport as proof of his acquired nationality.
Probably seeing as there are different hurdles (depending on connection to Ireland) that a foreign born person has to go through in order to qualify for citizenship.
A certificate of citizenship is the minimalist proof of having obtained citizenship.
It is time to return to one team representing the Island of Ireland. We do not have all this aggro with the Rugby team as to who plays for who.
With one team representing Ireland all this aggro about who plays for who will go away.
Indeed but they just won't listen. I gave a list of all FIFA documents because to understand and follow this whole debate you need to read many of them and indeed FIFA Circulars too. You can't just cherry pick one.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
The reason a passport is used is because it is a internationally recognised document. Driving Licences etc are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedser
You are mistaken. I stated that it was the IFA who tried to insist on British Passports. It was FIFA's intervention at the request of the Irish Government that clarified the situation. As for your "common sense" arguement, I suggest you read through the documents I supplied in the link. You will see that the onus is on the national associations to ensure eligibility, not FIFA to ensure it. Only if this is challanged by opponents eligibilty needs proved. Try this years World Cup regs as an example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedser
What has an eligibility dispute between the IFA and FAI (the subject of this thread, incidentally) got to do with the behaviour of a section of the fans of a club?Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
You might deplore such behaviour, as I do, but it is hardly illegal. Nor is it any different in essence from eg the behaviour of some of the ROI support in and around the Israel game a couple of years back (Remember the thread "Tonight I was Ashamed to be Irish"?).
Or, in order to be consistent, would you contend that players should also not represent ROI? :rolleyes:
Completely agree and I sense that the overwhelming majority of people North and South might also regard this a sensible and acceptable way forward. NI simply cannot compell players to play for them against their will, and dont seem to understand that it is increasingly unlikely that nationalists from the North will choose to play for a team that represents a state (and a football / cultural entity) that still has difficulty recognising their identity and heritage. Of course the idea of an All Ireland team may seem equally unpalatable to some Northern Unionists, but there is a difference. The Irish football team (like the Rugby team) would not be representing any specific political or national jurisdiction. It should be neutral and inclusive of both states, in a way that the NI team has failed to establish a neutrality / inclusiveness with respect to its constituent traditions.Quote:
Originally Posted by seanfhear
We need to diffuse the increasingly ugly and sectarian edge to international football in Ireland. What depresses me more than anything is the way that both national jersey's are being worn in the North as emblems of political and sectarian affiliation.
I know from previous threads that this will provoke EG and GR into apoplectic rage, but after GFF we need to be pragmatic and imaginative in the way that tradiitions are recognised in Ireland and spaces created where traditional loyalties and animosities can be broken down. Of course NI's existence is guaranteed under GFF (so long as a majority up there want it) and that should entitle them to a national football team, but life and relationships are more complicated than that. The fact that Unionism has established the legitimacy of its political position, might actually be an argument in favour of a bit of give in the area of sport, especially as the current position is in danger of proving unsustainable.
Why did Neil Lennon quit international football?
Sensible response but likely to upset usual paranoid suspects, who just want a team for their own convenience.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
And kk, presume not a serious question. If it is, rather than adding to the repetition on here, Google it....
if you cannot see the connect then you should expect a few more Gibsons, Wilsons etc in the coming years.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
If you are born in the island of Ireland, then you should be allowed to play for Ireland IMO
Ooops! Good example that you should read all the posts on a thread.:o:oQuote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
If things were as bad as you are trying to make out - which they weren't - I'd excuse any Jewish Irishman who would want to play for/or support Israel instead. Does that satisfy your question?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Fact is a bunch of nazis - I know you don't have any racists or anti-semites in Unionist O6C - doesn't compare with a concerted campaign against players of a certain religion and/or views on the political destiny of Northern Ireland and/or football club in Scotland.
Interview with Patrick Nelson, IFA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxwg4mD0sOg
Favourite quote in that video is; "we want Fifa to uphold their own statutes as we read them".
Is he a 'plastic' or a 'Maik Taylor'? Might even be EG. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Feeling they are being treated unfairly compared with other associations. Nurse? My sides! How many other associations can get to approach players that have moved to another 'country'? If he wants to protect his investment - sounds like he's talking about Chicken George and Kunta Kinte rather than a young footballer - then get FIFA to change the rules.
Did the IFA tell Tony Kane that they didnt want him because he had already played for the Republic under 21s or do they only want to stop players going one way?Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
TonyQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Marc Wilson today insisted that the players should be allowed decide whether they want to
play for the North or us. 100% agree with you Marc.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/8542085.stm
I just hope when this case comes up that the lads in the six counties who want to play for the "Republic" are given a fair voice as to the reasons why they are declaring for us - they are at least entitled to that. Only then can a balanced argument be made.
Waht exactly do CAS arbitrate on ? Is it that the rules have been correctly applied or is it that the rules applied are unfair ?
I see the IFA are argueing again that the rules be applied even though they would be better reading previous threads on this board.
haha Yeah sorry typed without even thinkingQuote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Well said Marc!!Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
I wish he was, sadly not!Quote:
Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy
Good man Marc for speaking out and you are spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapAPony
Comedy gold!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Many people in Spain, for instance, consider themselves to be Catalan or Basque etc, yet are defined as "Spaniards" by FIFA.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkCut
Similarly, Israeli Arabs may have an affinity to Palestine (or elsewhere). And don't even think about eg the Balkans, when it comes to what people "consider" themselves to be...
It likely* is unique, but only in that the Irish Republic automatically hands out citizenship at birth to people born outwith their jurisdiction - a politically irredentist policy which the FAI is exploiting for its own selfish ends.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkCut
* - Can't say for certain that one or two other countries operate something similar.
In other words, do it our way, or be done away with.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkCut
Oh the irony of people insisting that people like Darron Gibson should be allowed to choose to play for "their" country (ROI), in the same breath denying the right eg of his MU teammate Jonny Evans to play for his country (NI)...
How many of your 1,786 posts have been on this subject?Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
As for the 'FAI's selfish ends', give me a break, picking Irishmen to play for their country is selfish now? These players are making their own decisions, no one is holding a gun to their head.
As for Patrick Nelson's interview, words fail me, utterly deluded.
Ealing, I might not choose those particular words but that sums it up succinctly. I'm of a purely utilitarian view on the matter and support the FAI in exploiting whatever avenue we have to acquire talent in whatever way FIFA will allow. I can perfectly understand the frustration and even ire of Northern Ireland fans, particularly surrounding the Duffy case, and indeed I'd feel the same if the situation were reversed but football is all about self interest.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
He said BOTH sides put aside their differences. Remarkably disingenuous post.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
As said to fans of the 'North' many times, just be grateful you even have a team. And why not select the people who actually want to play for them?? Or is that not enough 'control freakery'??
Eventually it will be a choice between an AI or AB team. What would prefer, besides an accident of history to date?
This comment is in reply to my earlier point, which was as follows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
Namely, the FAI originally sought a "Gentlemens' Agreement" with the IFA to stop the two Associations from picking players from each others jurusdiction.
Then the FAI unilaterally broke the Agreement, for no other reason than self-interest.
In my book, that is the definition of dishourable behaviour, and nothing* in your post can gainsay that.
* - None of the bluster, waffle, irrelevancy and utter rubbish with which you prefaced your original post merits even a cursory reply.
Respecting is one thing, liking/agreeing with/accepting without demur is quite something else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
Which is all well and grand. But we have to accept Illegal Colonization in the meantime (& denying the indigenous population to represent their country!), albeit a few good souls, but mainly people who've been holding both us (& Britain) economic hostage by being a drain on their net resources....
Thank you Paddy, it is refreshing to know there are still some people prepared to read an entire post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Garcia
Ealing, every ROI supporter feels your pain did you not see how we went out of the WC?? Football is unfair sometimes as is life, we just have to get on with it. Suggesting a change in how the Republic issues citizenship to people born on the island of Ireland is ridiculous as it is a major part of an agreement keeping the peace in what was once one of the worlds "Danger hotspots", to threaten that over 2 average football teams is stupid. The citizenship part of the agreement is there for a reason, a significant part of the population of NI wish to be Irish, not Northern Irish, not British not even Ulstermen. Irish plain and simple. Those people and their descendants will almost always want to represent "Ireland" not a British principality, have you any idea how difficult it would be for those people to even stand to attention for "God Save The Queen"? Let alone sing it!! This is why the Rugby team plays "Irelands Call" to accomodate the Ulstermen who don't want to sing Amhrán na bhFiann .
Catalonia has a team, they are managed by Johann Cruyff and the players can play for both Catalonia and Spain as FIFA don't recognise Catalonia, nor does the rest of the world.
Some of Spains greatest players have played for Catalonia but I don't think they would prefer to represent them over Spain.
Palestine also has a team and Israeli Arabs would certainly want to play for them ahead of Israel, any (unlikely) peace agreement between Israel and Palastine would undoubtedly at least discuss citizenship rights if not do exactly as the GFA and they would have the same rights as NI people have here.
I may be incorrect in saying we are unique in being able to pick players from NI and correct me if I am wrong but can't anyone with a British Passport play for any of the home nations? Am sure I read that somewhere.
In any case Ealing , I still believe we should follow the example set by the IRFU and form an Irish team. It would have an incredible effect on the future of our country.
As I and many others have frequently pointed out, many NI fans would like to see GSTQ replaced, for a variety of reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
However, if you feel that this should be done because it alienates NI Nationalists, are you going to agree to the ROI replacing the Soldier's Song with something "neutral"? For that just as surely alienates NI Unionists.
Unless, of course, the FAI is not actually interested in picking a truly all-Ireland team i.e. Irish Unionists need not apply...
Oh FFS!Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
We have proudly been the Irish Football Association for 130 years now, and aren't going to change that at the behest of some feeble-minded poster on a message board.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
When are you going to accept that there are two international teams in Ireland, only one of which approaches players to play for them irrespective of the player's religion, identity or background. (And if you're unsure which one this latter is, you might find that eg the emerald green shirts with the Celtic Cross badge and shamrocks a useful clue)
FAI scouts are regularly seen at NI under-age games, even outside NI. Every single player who is known to have been approached (eg McKenna, Baird, Gibson, Duffy etc) is from the Nationalist community. Indeed, the only NI player from the Unionist community who has represented ROI in the modern era was Alan Kernaghan - and then only because the IFA's Rules prevented us from picking him for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
Now I accept that the FAI does not deliberately set out to be sectarian, but the inevitable consequence of their policy must be to lead more closely to a situation whereby one Irish international team is effectively Protestant/Unionist and the other Catholic/Nationalist.
If that is so, and the FAI is so concerned for their Nationalist fellow-countrymen in NI, how come they never eg protested to FIFA etc on their behalf?Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
How come they declined to pick such players for around five decades (under the Gentlemens' Agreement)?
It is not the "English Anthem", it is the anthem of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and far from "bellowing out" around WP, it lasts approx 90 seconds before the game even starts.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
Now I'm not saying it should be played (it shouldn't, imo), but it can be no more objectionable to NI Nationalists than eg the playing of the SS is to NI Unionists when the Ireland rugby team plays at Lansdowne. Get over it.
As for the death threat, to this day no-one knows who did it - it was an anonymous phone call, without a recognised codeword, to a newspaper. I do not blame Lennon for taking it seriously, but the IFA and NI fans are no more to be blamed for that than eg Cork County GAA and their fans for the series of threats issued against the manager of their Hurling team.
The various views which are expressed on OWC are no more "representative" of the NI team and stadium than this forum is of the ROI team etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by dantheman
Anyhow, here is what Jim Magilton contributed to "Green & White Army - The NI Fans' Story":
"I will never forget my first cap. It was a game against Poland at Windsor Park in February 1991. All my family were there and I felt so proud.
"Some people had been giving me a bit of stick before the game. They said that being from the heart of West Belfast the crowd would get on to me. Quite the reverse happened. They were very supportive from Day One. In fact I would have to say that the Northern Ireland fans were always good to me. They seemed to appreciate the way I played. They knew I was a football man who wanted to get the ball down and pass it, and they liked that. It may also have helped, mind you, that I scored on my debut, which turned out to be a 3-1 win over the Poles.
"Playing at Windsor that night fulfilled an ambition that I had harboured for some years. The special atmosphere of that football ground is something that has to be sampled firsthand to be appreciated properly. I remember when Michael O'Neill and I were schoolboy internationals we were invited to be ball boys at a Northern Ireland game.
"We were young teenagers at the time, but the first thing that hit me when we were waiting in the dressing room area was the smell. That waft of wintergreen that you only get in football changing rooms. Suddenly the door opened and there they were. The Northern Ireland team. Pat Jennings, Martin O'Neill and all the big names. All my heroes.
"As we came out from the back of the south stand the noise began. Once we hit the pitch it was deafening. Michael and I were told to stand in front of the Kop. It was just a cauldron of noise and two young boys immediately wanted a piece of their action. It was a dream to come back to Windsor as a Northern Ireland player, which I was proud to do and to go on to win 52 caps.
"People talk about the sectarian chants and songs when I was a player. But to be honest, once the game starts you are too focused to notice. I have to say that we find ourselves in a more preferable situation these days. There is a feelgood factor around Windsor. People are going along to the games as a family, and that has to be good news for everyone.
"It is also great to see the ever increasing numbers of Northern Ireland tops being worn around Belfast and beyond. Often when I am travelling over I see fellow travellers bedecked in their Northern Ireland gear. The excitement around the Northern Ireland team these days is great to see. The fans have played a major role in creating that, by changing the complexion of Windsor Park.
"But the IFA deserves plaudits too. They have tried to help the fans achieve their goals in this regard. They have involved them in various committees, they have listened to their idea and worked to make things better for everyone"
I for one would happily agree to a neutral anthem, in fact I think it would be a marvellous idea. I can see issues from both sides though, both rooted in our history instead of seeing it as an opportunity to look to the future. That appears to be our main problem in Ireland, a massive unwillingness to let go of the past perfect example being the comments about "800 years of colonization" on this thread. They were different less educated times, colonization and survival of the fittest were the order of the day, yes terrible things happened but we must let them go, if we dwell on them our feelings of anger and resentment will fester and grow and we will never move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Rugby internationals have both [COLOR=#417394]Amhrán na bhFiann[/COLOR] and Irelands Call played as I said before so your point about the Rugby team is in fact pointless.
It is ridiculous that our anthems still cause such issues, the FAI and IFA should come together as the AIFA (All Ireland Football Association) and put one team in for FIFA consideration, Irelands Call be the anthem and let football cement the peace process by giving every Irish person a common interest. It would also increase the quality of our team and show those living in the past that they are going to be left behind to cry over the milk they spilt.
Until that glorious day Ealing you shall just have to accept that players born in NI will always be qualified to play for ROI and we will continue to welcome them with open arms. You are right in an earlier post though, it does'nt mean you have to like it or accept it quietly - you will just have to put up with it.
As a matter of interest, what is your definition of "country"? According to the GFA, Darron Gibson , Jonny Evans, and anyone esle born in NI are entitled to British and/or Irish nationality, but not "Northern Irish" nationality, as there is no such thing. There is nothing ironic in saying that people born in NI should have to choose between a national team that represents one of the two nationalities that they are entitled to: Ireland or the United Kingdom.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Actually it's both. It is currently the anthem of the UK, but it is also and was originally the anthem of England. In the same way that London is the capital of England and the UK. That doesn't mean NI should play their home games in London though, does it? GSTQ includes a verse about crushing the Scots, so it was hardly intended to be an all inclusive anthem that everyone in the UK could identify with. And let's not pretend that anyone outside England ever got a say in what the anthem of the UK should be. This is kind of the crux of why one half of the community in NI (and large parts of the community in Scotland and Wales) don't particularly like GSTQ.Quote:
Originally Posted by EalingGreen
Furthermore, as GSTQ is the UK anthem (as you point out), it would make sense to play it if the team represented the UK, but the whole issue is that it supposedly doesn't!!! You can't have it both ways - either NI is a "country" and therefore it should have its own anthem, or it's a region within the UK, in which case it shouldn't have an international football team in the first place.
I think he was trying to say that by having an all Ireland team we would be allowing Gibson to play for his country of choice (Ireland) whilst stopping Evans playing for his(Northern Ireland.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedser
Yeah I got that, but my point is that the whole basis of Unionism on this island is that they want their country to be the UK, not Northern Ireland (or Ireland). I assume that's still the general position held by non-nationalists in the North, in which case establishing an all Ireland team would not in any way prevent them from representing their country. The only thing that stops them from representing their country is that their country does not currently field a team!Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkCut