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Physicality has become a big part of the game in recent years? What are you talking about!?! It has always been a big part of the game.
I can't recall McShane or Kelly playing much European football, and really both players have been tried and tested for both Ireland and in Premiership football, and at best they are relegation/lower mid-table standard.
Yes, almost all analysts of the game would agree that phsyicality is becoming a bigger influence as the top teams put more emphasis on size. That's a relatively universally accepted comment.
I'm not saying McShane/Kelly are anything more than what you've said, but experience is hugely, hugely crucial, and you have to respect the fact that McShane has faced up against some of the worlds greatest attackers, whilst Foley plays for a Championship side. No manager worth their salt would just write off a factor like that because they read on a Wolves forum that Foley's been playing well.
I'd play Foley at RB, much better than McShane in all departments, as for St Ledger, I'd bring him into the squad ahead of Bruce and McShane, with a view to give him games in friendlies and time in competitive games as a long term replacement for O'Shea.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilkCut
I don't agree with many on here that we lack quality, we have many players who will go onto and be a success in the Premiership, Foley and St Ledger are amongst those.
With regard to size, I actually think size has become increasingly important over the last 7 or 8 years. I expect improved nutritional standards of the last generation across the eastern block may be the reason.
However, it was correctly pointed out that the Spanish team showed that technique can win out over size, especially in an environment where referees follow the continental doctrine. Players like Iniesta, Arshavin, Modric, our own Stephen Ireland even, show that technique and intelligence can win out.
Jicked, I think the main point was that McShane's limitations on the ball placed too much pressure on McGeady. Also, at no point was McShane able to develop play. Hence the ball kept coming back to us. I don't think this was a tactical failing of Trap's as such, just the pure limitations of the player. Foley, being a natural right back, could have been a better option against a team that we could have beaten if we'd used the ball better.
I think Ifk101's post on the other thread addressed this issue well though.
While I agree McShane probably isn't as comfortable on the ball in the RB position as Foley would be, and yes that could have impacted on McGeady's game, I wouldn't blame McShane for not developing the play. He was clearly under orders not to try to get involved and I agree with that. Kilbane and he were told to stay put, O'Shea and Dunne weren't to roam in to midfield, instead everyone just kept their discipline and positions. For me that paid off, we restricted Bulgaria to one good chance in the whole game, despite giving them most of the possession, and created more than enough chances to win the game ourselves (Keane, McGeady, Doyle and the goal itself).
If we have McShane and Kilbane contributing more going forward and developing the play we're going to leave ourselves exposed, and that simply didn't happen against Bulgaria despite their amount of possession. I think away from home the tactic will work a treat, especially in Sofia (you'd expect Italy to have too much for us tonight, whatever the tactics/formation) but would like the two in the middle to be able to put their foot on it a bit more. I thought the first 45 minutes in the friendly against Norway was superb, would love to see us recreate that style of play again, but it requires two bigger performances from our two in the middle.
Yep, best CM performance in years. We played most of the first half in their half, Norway couldn't keep the ball at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
it was a such a joy to watch that day. we defended relatively high up the pitch and were content to just keep the ball moving. I thought it was a sign of things to come :(
Even though I dont think Trap is a long term solution j(ust like Charlton when he stayed on far too long and we suffered for years as a result), I just like all the people on here would love it if we got a result against the Italians tomorrow, As a country we need a lift. I remember Ray Houghton's goal, what a night, it was a pity but that was as good as it got, that was Irelands world cup. Come on the boys in green.
One trick Trap?
Hat-trick of brilliant subsitutions and he outfoxes the World Champions and Marcello Lippi.
Unbeaten.
where are all these muppets now? We outplayed Italy tonight, great substitutions by Trap and we should have won the game in the end
Steady on now. They did have to play the entire game with 10 men.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicked
More than the 3 subs: JO'S moving to RB was a good move too. I thought Folan made a difference immediately. It made sense playing Robbie deeper, Doyle looked nacked, Gibson & Whelan between then got the bit between their teeth and N. Hunt looked like it was his 100th cap he was so unnerved. Fair play Trap, if not for your starting XI, but for the way you responded to the game's flow.
Now, can we play this way every game please?
to Jicked & Jebus - a few of my quotes from the game thread.
Quote:
just want to say that if we can kick on, performance wise, from this and produce that sort of football on a regular basis then i will hold my hands up and admit that maybe i had Trap all wrong, something Dunphy will and would never do. He got his substitutions spot on and im glad he took Keogh off though i questioned it at the time.
with due acknowledgement of the fact that we played 10 men for nearly 90 minutes.Quote:
i certainly dont feel like an eejit. I stand by my criticisms of Saturdays performance and i just cant believe we didnt kick on after the first goal. Tonight showed what we can do if we are allowed.
if we're chasing a game...sure. Otherwise I'd like to stick to grinding out results and protecting that dodgy back four as much as possible and hitting teams on the break.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuttgart88
Oh I'm not having a go at all, just standing up for Trap. I felt it was crazy to turn on the players/management/system after a game where we gave away one chance all game, and felt Trap vindicated that tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Those saying he's past it or to old for it are the people I'd have a go at, tonight proved that is rubbish.
I agree and disagree at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
We definately outplayed Italy, but I feel that was more a result of a very questionable sending off then anything Ireland had to offer.
We could have won, but even against 10 men I don't thing we looked good enough.
I think Trap only made the changes as a result of the sending off and they were questionable changes. Hunt for Doyle..?? Gibson for Andrews, I would have thought Gibson was good enough to start, a like for like substitution anyway so not very match changing. The Folan substitution was a good one, but begs the question why we didn't go for Bulgaria on Sat night in a similar fashion.
If Trap had sent his team out tonight and last Saturday night with the same attitude they showed after 20 mins of tonight's game we could be in a far better position in the group.
We can't change the red card Norm, we can only play against whats out in front of us and I disagree with taking away from our performance like that
As for the subs, Andrews was having a nightmare so Gibson was the obvious choice, Folan sub changed the game and Doyle was looking knackered so needed to come off, Hunt wasn't a bad replacement
Stu that comment about the 10 men goes to you too
Gibson does have a better eye to spot a pass, with Italy playing as deep as they were and with such numbers it made sense to go for that vision to try and thread a few balls through. A few times Gibson spotted good balls but just couldn't execute them.
Surely a manager's job is to respond to the game's circumstances?Quote:
Originally Posted by Norm
Folan - good move.
Gibson for Andrews: not quite like with like. Gibson moves the ball better than Andrews though Andrews is more aggressive.
Hunt for Doyle? Doyle barely came out for the second half. I reckon he was shattered. I thought it was a good call though maybe Long's speed may have been more harmful.
Trap mentioned he thought some players were tiring today, I'd say Doyle was in mind then, he looked shattered alright. Noelio came on and worked well, with Folan as the target man there was a lot of nippy players working well around him.
Amazing defence by Italy to not once give Noel Hunt, Stephen Hunt, Keane, Whelan or Gibson a single sight of goal. Any time anyone looked to have a pop at goal a charger closed them down in a flash. Even more impressive when you consider they had 10 men.
i think its time this thread was closed. trust in trap
i love doyle hes my favourite player but hes not really doing it in terms of goals lately and was presumably wrecked after his trojan work on saturday.
I think Trap realised they had 10 men, so burning the legs off them is a decent tactic, use all your subs because they will use all theirs.
Fair nuff Jebus, probably a bit harsh to take from the performance just because of the red card. There definately was a good few positives to be taken. It is just frustrating that it took a red card to force Trap into making some substitutions. Folan made the difference.
I appreciate that he lives and dies by results and so far it is hard question them, but maybe if he had encouraged a little more of the positivity shown tonight coupled with a few well timed substitutions against Bulgaria and Montenegro we might be in a far stronger position.
For what its worth I am far more optimitic after tonight!
Yes he is the MessiahQuote:
Originally Posted by richieos
Nobody said he is the Messiah but the fact is Ireland remain unbeaten with only one less that satisfactory result (Bulgaria).
I fancy us to take Bulgaria away!
He's a very naughty boy.
Thank God we eventually had a go after all that negative tripe thats been on show, hope they approach all games like they did the 2nd half. Mind you Italy played into our hands and sat back like we did against Bulgaria.
Thought Dunphy was abit too harsh last night. Good to see a little spirit. Im almost collapsed to see 3 subs by 63 minutes, maybe it was Trap not Hunt who got struck with the ball.
What about Hunt, he done well last night, won loads of questionable frees and he didnt even know that Italy had scored in the first half.
The sending off probably deserves a thread of it's own at this stage. :)
For my money it was a stone cold red card. Yeah I'd have been ****ed off if we lost a man like that and yes nine out of ten times there's no sanction at all but that doesn't mean he wasn't culpable.
No intent is no excuse either -he jumped into a header with both his arms above his own head-height and that's against the rules exactly because you can shatter someones jaw, eye socket etc in the process.
Tough titty boy, hit the showers.
agree lionel, they werent complaining on saturday when canavaro shouldve been sent off in monty negro... and the ref made up for later with decision for them...
I take it that's the get-out clause for the Trappasceptics. If they won, it would have been "they only needed ten men", if they didn't, it's because "they only had ten men." :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon 7
They're supposed to be the World Champions, able to despatch a bunch of semi-decent PL players, and lower league players in a side without 3 key players at home.
Even with 10 men.
Agree with that. A 10 man Italy side is still a very formidable opponent. A lot of sides would have found it difficult to get a result there even given the circumstances.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
The "lunatic asylum" comment regarding Trap's subs (who unlike Dunphy has won every honour in the game) was a new low even for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by cestlavie
Unbeaten in qualifying still.... sack him quick:)
Thought Hunt was very good, delivery from set pieces was poor but overall I was very impressed thought he was good against Bulgaria too and hopefully people will stop calling him an impact sub now, I'd start him against Bulgaria even if both Duff and McGeady are fit.Quote:
Originally Posted by cestlavie
The Bulgaria match was excrutiating to watch. Trap was right in that he feared us losing at the end, the Bulgarians were not settling for a draw.
Mick got slated when he gambled to beat the Swiss at home and lost it all due to that exact gamble. It later transpired that a draw then would have been quite okay.
It has to be (hoped) trusted that what was seen out on the pitch was not what the manager envisioned or ordered, it's just what transpires as a manager seeks to impose a playing style on a dysfunctional unit. Trap has given a huge vote of confidence to the existing squad to do the necessary.
The evidence is there now that the heartbeat of the team, CM, can rise to the occasion to function as Trap believes they can do.
...but only with help from Keane?Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Some people criticsised Keanes overall performance but his dropping deep and taking time on the ball def helped Whelan and Andrews.
My worry about our current two midfielders is that they appear to not have the ability to excecute a telling early pass.
Can't question the attitude of either player though, always look commited and busy.
Having said that, I am not sure who was responsible for not closing down the Bulgarians(Petrov) pass which let to Kilbanes own goal.
I thought Keane playing deep shortened the gap between him and the 2 CM's, making it easier for a cohesive link between midfield and attack, facilitating ball retention and making it harder to defend against. He's a good all round player is Robbie.
At least we know Midfield can function without S Reid.
We looked considerably better off without a second winger / Keane in the gap and we were in previously unknown luxury territory with all the adventure from the full backs added into the mix.
Who is going to pull the short straw for the next game?