Lee Carsley

For what its worth, i approve of any recruits that will improve our playing pool (vast majority do too, i'd say) - i just think it should be well down the list in terms of our strategy.

Additionally, I think for most players it is a question of national affinity and career prospects (money) that influences these decisions. It is not a question of Kenny v. McCarthy v. Carsley - i doubt it is much of a factor at all. We didnt see Trap tip the scales in our favour from that perspective, for example. The national team coach will always be the most temporary of factors in a players deliberations and well behind national affinity and career prospects.

Carsley would be a great appointment. Still a bit of a gamble but one well worth going in on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

For what its worth, i approve of any recruits that will improve our playing pool (vast majority do too, i'd say) - i just think it should be well down the list in terms of our strategy.

Additionally, I think for most players it is a question of national affinity and career prospects (money) that influences these decisions. It is not a question of Kenny v. McCarthy v. Carsley - i doubt it is much of a factor at all. We didnt see Trap tip the scales in our favour from that perspective, for example. The national team coach will always be the most temporary of factors in a players deliberations and well behind national affinity and career prospects.

Carsley would be a great appointment. Still a bit of a gamble but one well worth going in on.

---

Maybe my logic was a little bit oblique. I agree that career prospects are a massive influence on declaring for a nation, but a significant part of that is wether that country will qualify for tournaments? The status, track record of the manager is part of the calculation, along with the country’s recent record, quality of the squad….
But let’s be honest Kenny is never going to convince a waverer that he’s going to be playing at The World Cup finals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day
Teach a man to fish...

---

... and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eminence Grise

... and he'll sit in a boat and drink beer all day.

---

And then the big shark comes ! !

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

Interesting article, indeed. Not sure i can principally agree with this take:

---

My reading was that there was also a kind of "natural justice" angle to his argument. "We are the largest, best-resourced football country on the planet, it's therefore a terrible indictment of our system that we'd have to recruit a foreign coach to get the best out of it. But it's OK for lesser nations to do it." I think he used the term "developing nations".

I kind of agree. The big countries shouldn't be looking at each other's coaches for their national teams but smaller countries can because they need every advantage they can get to compete.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by third policeman

7 members of the current England squad were eligible for us. We let two escape, apparently because O'Neill thought he might be compromising their careers by tieing them to a second tier nation. 2 of them are highly unlikely to win more than a handful of caps. In the past at least a couple of them may well have accepted a call-up from Ireland, but would you want to play for Stephen Kenny?

---

Who were the 7? Kane, maguire, rice, grealish, maguire...?

I hadn't heard that about oneill, which 2 and was that in his book?

That's a fine post from third policeman. But while happy to agree with pursuing diaspora benefits, there's something basically wrong with tying a noose around a kid's career with a two-minute competitive cameo. By all means go for the Bamfords and Nobles and hope for the best but the cameo scenario is akin to press-ganging, or a green-tinted version of the king's shilling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dynamo kerry

Who were the 7? Kane, maguire, rice, grealish, maguire...?

I hadn't heard that about oneill, which 2 and was that in his book?

---

Actually meant to have been nine.

Along with the four you mentioned, Bellingham, Wilson, Maddison, Gallagher and Coady.

Not sure of the links to each.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nigel-harps1954

Actually meant to have been nine.

Along with the four you mentioned, Bellingham, Wilson, Maddison, Gallagher and Coady.

Not sure of the links to each.

---

Coady has a grandparent.

I'm sure I read about Gallagher before.

Maddison I had to look up. A grandparent it seems.

Bellingham dad is a son of immigrants

Wilson and Philips both 2nd gen.

.so it's actually 10... which is fascinating

Anyway we are facing all this ourselves now, polish, nigerian, Czech. Lots of people with mixed heritage.

Seems like there's a guy on twitter going by the name @elatedscum who correctly identifies that England needs fewer Irish players to be successful. I agree!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Seems like there's a guy on twitter going by the name @elatedscum who correctly identifies that England needs fewer Irish players to be successful. I agree!

---

Yeah = = We need England’s Irish Players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Seems like there's a guy on twitter going by the name @elatedscum who correctly identifies that England needs fewer Irish players to be successful. I agree!

---

How bad would England be without all of the Irish Players ? ( wink wink )

Charming..

A fringe view I'm sure.
Anyway, Carsley as manager would be fascinating. Kenny era is struggling to an end, which is a pity but there you go, may as well try Lee who has a very different background in some ways but is also a champion of youth

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dynamo kerry

Charming..

A fringe view I'm sure.
Anyway, Carsley as manager would be fascinating. Kenny era is struggling to an end, which is a pity but there you go, may as well try Lee who has a very different background in some ways but is also a champion of youth

---

It might even be a wind up.

Really?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

My reading was that there was also a kind of "natural justice" angle to his argument. "We are the largest, best-resourced football country on the planet, it's therefore a terrible indictment of our system that we'd have to recruit a foreign coach to get the best out of it. But it's OK for lesser nations to do it." I think he used the term "developing nations".

I kind of agree. The big countries shouldn't be looking at each other's coaches for their national teams but smaller countries can because they need every advantage they can get to compete.

---

Jeez, not my take on it at all but i get the point/rationale that you are making on why they should really have an English manager. The general tone of the article gave off a major "Little Englander / Rule Brittania" type vibe so he loses any benefit of the doubt in how to interpret that bit I quoted. Its weird that he doesnt consider Carsley, born in Birmingham, as English enough... The England manager "must be" English is a fairly strong, definitive statement. His follow on that it is an international game based on international rules (coaches should be subject to the same international rules as players or something) doesnt really suggest he is open to the idea of the smaller countries getting an advantage either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SkStu

Jeez, not my take on it at all but i get the point/rationale that you are making on why they should really have an English manager. The general tone of the article gave off a major "Little Englander / Rule Brittania" type vibe so he loses any benefit of the doubt in how to interpret that bit I quoted. Its weird that he doesnt consider Carsley, born in Birmingham, as English enough... The England manager "must be" English is a fairly strong, definitive statement. His follow on that it is an international game based on international rules (coaches should be subject to the same international rules as players or something) doesnt really suggest he is open to the idea of the smaller countries getting an advantage either.

---

Yeah maybe. I read the article yesterday and was only going by memory.

Edit: I just read it again. You're totally right. Maybe I'm confusing it with another article or some comments to the article on social media.

"The FA appointed Lee Carsley last year, a capable coach who had a number of previous FA roles, but critically, he played for the Republic of Ireland. He was Birmingham-born but earned 40 caps for the Irish national team. He is not a potential successor to Southgate."

and then

"The England Under-21s manager has to be a potential England manager."

I mean Jesus...

btw, that 12 foot ladder thing is brilliant. Bravo Tets!

I think the latter comment (re the 21s manager) is more reasonable than the Carsley one in fairness. It's increasingly common (Spain the latest to do it) that the 21s manager has progressed to senior manager, so I think it's reasonable to consider career progression as part of a candidate's suitability for that role.

But that doesn't mean you can't then appoint, say, Lee Carsley instead when the time comes.

I'd be very happy with the appointment of Carsley, and I think he would take it. I don't foresee a scenario whereby England appoint him to the big job after Southgate, even on a caretaker basis. They will want either someone who is experienced and successful, or an Englishman. He ticks neither box.

The progression of underage managers to senior international side has worked well for major footballing nations. It gives the eventual manager a working knowledge of the structures and facilities the association has before eventually taking on the big job.

In our case it would, appointing Carsley would mean bringing in someone who has a working knowledge of the structures and facilities the association needs rather than has. That could be of great benefit to us.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Yeah maybe. I read the article yesterday and was only going by memory.

Edit: I just read it again. You're totally right. Maybe I'm confusing it with another article or some comments to the article on social media.

"The FA appointed Lee Carsley last year, a capable coach who had a number of previous FA roles, but critically, he played for the Republic of Ireland. He was Birmingham-born but earned 40 caps for the Irish national team. He is not a potential successor to Southgate."

and then

"The England Under-21s manager has to be a potential England manager."

I mean Jesus...

---

I was wondering how many former U21 managers have gone on to manage the senior England team, other than the current manager, and according to this - https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/engl...ie/verein/9565 - three U21 managers since 1989 - Southgate, Roy Hodgson (who took charge of the U21s for one game), and Stuart Pearce, who was caretaker manager for the senior team for one game - have also managed the senior team, so that statement is patently ridiculous.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

btw, that 12 foot ladder thing is brilliant. Bravo Tets!

---

Like I said, it doesn't work on every paywalled site, but it works on enough to make it useful