A New Low - the North Overtake Us

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Does the following contention have any legs?

In Jack's era international football was more glamourous than domestic football. Our players all played for big English clubs which were banned from Europe from 85 onwards (until when? 90 or 91??). International football was these players' only chance to compete in an international context.

These days with 4 teams qualifying for the CL, and another half dozen or whatever for UEFA, international football no longer is the only chance for these players to compete internationally. And even those players in teams that can't make any form of European football are playing for their lucrative careers fighting relegation. These days avoiding the drop is the only ambition shown by some clubs.

Therefore, maybe it can be argued that players from The Championship or Hearts or Hibs or wherever are just hungrier for the different angle that international football offers them? Maybe internationals are a tedious break in an otherwise exciting routine for some of our players? For others it's an exciting break in a tedious routine.

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I don't think that European football is as big a factor as the hugely inflated salaries now being paid in England. Because of Sky and the 7x24 sports news cycle and the internet we now have a complete celebrity culture and somehow average football pros are treated as stars. Pro players in England have had a transformation in lifestyle. This has to eat away at motivation in some of the players - they play for big contracts and once they get them they ease off a bit. Besides it's not as if we have that many players playing in Europe.

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Oh, right - thanks.:confused:

Earlier you said:

"You certainly won't hear IRA chants at an Ireland game"

No need to drag it out any further.;)

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Put it this way, I haven't heard any.

EL clubs are now doing better in Europe than in comparison to the national side, yet the vast majority of 'Ireland' fans prefer to support English clubs. Are Ireland fans the greatet bunch of losers/day trippers/event snobs the world has ever seen?

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Originally Posted by Not Brazil

Oh, right - thanks.:confused:

Earlier you said:

"You certainly won't hear IRA chants at an Ireland game"

No need to drag it out any further.;)

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There have been debates on this site about sectarian chanting but it has been confined (so far) in bars or in one case a public square in Stuttgart.

I don't think it is right anywhere but there has to be a distinction between being sung at a game and in a bar.

I don't think this is down to the salaries and European Football. I think the manager has a huge influence in football. Look at Aston Villa now.

Lawrie Sanchez is clearly a very man talented manager. He has got the best out of his team and has everyone rallying to the cause. Our players are playing week in week out at a higher level. David Healy has never started a game in club football at the top level in any league. I was at the Spain game and the Spanish players were lightyears ahead of the NI players in some cases yet they lost and deserved to lose because they were up against a better team on the night.

We had it with Jack. Mick McCarthy grew into the job after some shocking tactical mistakes. Brian Kerr is a good manager but he had to go last year. He had lost the dressingroom and had lost the plot. His decisions cost us dearly in both Israel games. It may have been that he felt under too much pressure once John Delaney took over as CEO but that late equaliser in Tel Aviv and the subsequent collapse in Dublin sealed his fate. A wonder goal from Thierry Henry can always happen but we were in a position to win the group in March 05 irrespective of the French game.

Stan was a very good player but hardly a talker or a leader on the field. There is nothing to suggest to me that he is or will be a good manager. I was amazed at his appointment but really hope I'll be proved wrong. A fit Bobby Robson would certainly make a huge difference

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Originally Posted by gspain

Lawrie Sanchez is clearly a very man talented manager. He has got the best out of his team and has everyone rallying to the cause.

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It was in another thread recently that his and Aldridge's club managerial records were very similar, Aldridge arguably more successful. If the position was available tomorrow would you advocate Aldridge?

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Originally Posted by gspain

I don't think this is down to the salaries and European Football. I think the manager has a huge influence in football. Look at Aston Villa now.

Lawrie Sanchez is clearly a very man talented manager. He has got the best out of his team and has everyone rallying to the cause. Our players are playing week in week out at a higher level. David Healy has never started a game in club football at the top level in any league. I was at the Spain game and the Spanish players were lightyears ahead of the NI players in some cases yet they lost and deserved to lose because they were up against a better team on the night.

We had it with Jack. Mick McCarthy grew into the job after some shocking tactical mistakes. Brian Kerr is a good manager but he had to go last year. He had lost the dressingroom and had lost the plot. His decisions cost us dearly in both Israel games. It may have been that he felt under too much pressure once John Delaney took over as CEO but that late equaliser in Tel Aviv and the subsequent collapse in Dublin sealed his fate. A wonder goal from Thierry Henry can always happen but we were in a position to win the group in March 05 irrespective of the French game.

Stan was a very good player but hardly a talker or a leader on the field. There is nothing to suggest to me that he is or will be a good manager. I was amazed at his appointment but really hope I'll be proved wrong. A fit Bobby Robson would certainly make a huge difference

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There are many factors, if you check the forum I have always said the manager is the most important person, his ability has a greater bearing on results than any other individual - but I do feel that the fat cat players that managers have to deal with today pose a new challenge to managers.

BW Stan was most definitely a leader on the field.

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Originally Posted by Qwerty

There are many factors, if you check the forum I have always said the manager is the most important person, his ability has a greater bearing on results than any other individual - but I do feel that the fat cat players that managers have to deal with today pose a new challenge to managers.

BW Stan was most definitely a leader on the field.

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I agree 100% of the importance of the manager; however, I would qualify your "fat cat" comment, since the basic principles of man-management should be the same whether you are dealing with superstars or donkeys. Martin O'Neill has shown this in a managerial career covering everything from Shepshed Charterhouse to Stan Collymore!
In NI's case, we don't have too many "fat cats", but one of our most talented players is left back George McCartney (ex-Sunderland, now WHU). For whatever reason, he didn't get on with Sanchez and said he wouldn't play for him anymore.
As it happens, his natural replacement, Mark Clyde of Wolves, has been permanently injured for two years and the next choice, Tony Capaldi of Plymouth has had to endure two years being shown up out of his natural position (left wingback).
Finally, Sanchez fast-tracked 18-year-old Centre Back Jonny Evans, who seems to have settled in fine.
In the short-term, we might have done better if Sanchez had swallowed his pride and brought McC back in; in the longer term, however, I think we have more than benefited by the reinforcement of team morale and Lawrie's authority.
Contrast that with Staunton's handling of Lee Carsley.

As for Stan's leadership on the field: might that be because he knew what he was doing as a player, but doesn't as a manager? Bobby Charlton was a true leader on the pitch for MU and England, but a failure as a manager. Whereas, his much less talented brother Jack was only an average pla... OK, you probably know the rest!

If there was a choice between Stan or Kerr to lead us into that last game against the Swiss, I would choose Stan.
ATM (it might last 5 minutes) I have a renewed conditional faith in Stan to do well.
As Giles never tires of saying that the starting point of any team is spirit.
Optimism, based on some evidence of that spirit over the 90 minutes and a decent batch of new competent players in Doyle, McGeady and McShane. Decent back ups with Kelly and Douglas.
But if I began to list the conditions I might slip back into despair.

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Originally Posted by geysir

If there was a choice between Stan or Kerr to lead us into that last game against the Swiss, I would choose Stan.

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I think that's a no-brainer since Kerr failed to beat them so Stan can't do worse. ;)

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

It was in another thread recently that his and Aldridge's club managerial records were very similar, Aldridge arguably more successful. If the position was available tomorrow would you advocate Aldridge?

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I'd consider him although he has been out of the game for a long time. Unfortunately the job is not as attractive now as it was last year.

Stan was never a leader on the pitch IMO. He did his own job and did it well. He was appointed captain only for the World Cup when there weren't a lot of other options. He wasn't an inspirational player like McCarthy, Moran or Keane for example. I don't recall if he ever captained Liverpool, Villa or Coventry when an pbvious leader who plays in defence would have to have been a candidate.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

I agree 100% of the importance of the manager; however, I would qualify your "fat cat" comment, since the basic principles of man-management should be the same whether you are dealing with superstars or donkeys. Martin O'Neill has shown this in a managerial career covering everything from Shepshed Charterhouse to Stan Collymore!
In NI's case, we don't have too many "fat cats", but one of our most talented players is left back George McCartney (ex-Sunderland, now WHU). For whatever reason, he didn't get on with Sanchez and said he wouldn't play for him anymore.
As it happens, his natural replacement, Mark Clyde of Wolves, has been permanently injured for two years and the next choice, Tony Capaldi of Plymouth has had to endure two years being shown up out of his natural position (left wingback).
Finally, Sanchez fast-tracked 18-year-old Centre Back Jonny Evans, who seems to have settled in fine.
In the short-term, we might have done better if Sanchez had swallowed his pride and brought McC back in; in the longer term, however, I think we have more than benefited by the reinforcement of team morale and Lawrie's authority.
Contrast that with Staunton's handling of Lee Carsley.

As for Stan's leadership on the field: might that be because he knew what he was doing as a player, but doesn't as a manager? Bobby Charlton was a true leader on the pitch for MU and England, but a failure as a manager. Whereas, his much less talented brother Jack was only an average pla... OK, you probably know the rest!

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What did Jack ever win as a manager to compare with his feats as a player?
I think he gained promotion for boro or somebody but thats it - won nothing with Eire (hehe)

won everything in the game as a player

also Martin O neill never got to the cl group stages - strachan looks on course

O neill is over rated - but knows well its all about creating ure own myth

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Originally Posted by geysir

If there was a choice between Stan or Kerr to lead us into that last game against the Swiss, I would choose Stan.
ATM (it might last 5 minutes) I have a renewed conditional faith in Stan to do well.
As Giles never tires of saying that the starting point of any team is spirit.
Optimism, based on some evidence of that spirit over the 90 minutes and a decent batch of new competent players in Doyle, McGeady and McShane. Decent back ups with Kelly and Douglas.
But if I began to list the conditions I might slip back into despair.

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If I had a choice between Stan and Kerr to lead us aginst the Cypriots away, I know who I'd choose.

Back to the point lads! We have dropped bellow N.Ireland in the ranking!
How embarrasing can it get!:mad: :mad: :mad:

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

I think that's a no-brainer since Kerr failed to beat them so Stan can't do worse. ;)

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But at least I have a quote :)

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Originally Posted by Midgit

Back to the point lads! We have dropped bellow N.Ireland in the ranking!
How embarrasing can it get!:mad: :mad: :mad:

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I wouldn't mind if NI were above us if they were in the top 10. The fact that we're at 49 is not just embarrassing, it's a disgrace. Surely we're not that bad, are we?

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Originally Posted by Midgit

Back to the point lads! We have dropped bellow N.Ireland in the ranking!
How embarrasing can it get!:mad: :mad: :mad:

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Wherever NI are in the FIFA table doesn't make me feel better or worse about where we are.
What's relevant, if comparison does matter to some people,
is the information from the official seedings thread

28. Ireland ave points 1.385
33. N. I. ave points 1.143

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Originally Posted by Midgit

Back to the point lads! We have dropped bellow N.Ireland in the ranking!
How embarrasing can it get!:mad: :mad:

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You have dropped to 49th in the rankings; I'll leave you to determine how embarrassing (or otherwise) that may be, but leave NI out of it. Otherwise, on present form it could get a lot worse, if you judge your situation solely by reference to your Northern Chums.
Perhaps you should comfort yourself that you're still one place above Macedonia. Or 10 above Uzbekistan. Being 15 places places above Burkina Faso should give you bragging rights in Africa. Dammit, you're still 28 places above Wales!
For the moment...;)

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Originally Posted by geysir

Wherever NI are in the FIFA table doesn't make me feel better or worse about where we are.
What's relevant, if comparison does matter to some people,
is the information from the official seedings thread

28. Ireland ave points 1.385
33. N. I. ave points 1.143

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Fair point, Geysir. Mind you, the Seedings Table is turning, too, so you'd better hope that Stan finds a way to stop the rot before your next ECQ games.

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Originally Posted by eirebhoy

And I'm sure if 30,000 people were singing The Fields of Athenry on O'Connoll street you'd hear the add ons too! ;)

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Don't hear it in Thomond Pk with 20k, singing it, or in CArdiff, with 60/65k singing it. Just because some do it, doesn't make it right. 3 lads tried to do it at the Czech game. One got a warning to cop on, then he got a slap in the head. Fully merited. If we're gonna give the Nordies cop about their Sectarianism then we can't allow any shyte at our own games.