Away Support

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

As has been stated before, We all love the game so lets not have this real fan over not real fan etc. Why does it bother people so much. As long as people are not stopping you getting tickets etc well then what is the problem. We live in a free society were people can do what they want. If I go to every Ireland game for 10 years I dont look down on a guy who goes only to the big ones. Thats his life and he is free to live it the way he wants. The same if I go to all Bohs games I would not look down on somone who only goes to Ireland games.

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All very well until the fan who has been supporting the team for years can't get a ticket because the occasional fan who just likes the "big game" and the hype that surrounds it has taken his ticket. There is the "real fan" and it mightn't be pc to say it but I'd sooner see Lansdowne with 20K real fans screaming for their team than the ground full with many of the event junkies that go there these days who sit back waiting for the team and the real fans to entertain them.

Neil you have missed the point big time.
If you follow a team 365 days a year through thin and thinner
Only to lose out on a ticket to someone who basically is looking for a night
out then you are not going to be a happy puppy
And have every right to say they are not real fans
Perfect example Shels against Depor now i would regularly and watch other Dublin teams if Rovers werent playing.
You could go down to the ground 10 mins before ko and get in.
But had I had some job getting a ticket becasue all the ole ole'ers where out
for the glam of the CL.The exact same fans that go to Ireland games to be honest.
Im sure there were genuine shels fans who couldnt get tickets because the night out brigade I.e not real fans gobbled them up
And thats only 1 example

[QUOTE=NeilMcD] Why does it bother people so much. As long as people are not stopping you getting tickets etc well then what is the problem. We live in a free society were people can do what they want. QUOTE]

Please read a post before you respond to it. Did I not say that as long as they are not stopping people getting tickets well then there is no problem. The FAI have a good system in place regarding the block booking. As long as you go to every game you get a ticket for the next one. So I dont forsee a problem there. There is an issue with away games as they dont have a good system in place for that rather they just replicate the home system which is not good.

Regarding the Shels Deportivo game, Am I not right in saying that tickets were on sale well in advance so anybody who wanted to get a ticket had ample time to get one. Surely you are not saying that tickets should be kept for you to stroll along just before kick off and get a ticket.

So we have snobbery within snobbery here also. Owls fan looks down on those that just go to the big games and the EL fan looks down on the Ireland fan and so on so on. You are not a real fan unless you have divorced your wife due to footballing reasons and you dont see your kids due to attending matches 24/7. the fact is there is always someone who is more dedicated than the next guy and thats fair enough. Most clubs or countries have ticketing systems in place to solve these issues. Its the problem of the clubs if they dont not the guy who just wants to go on for the night. He is not breaking the law.

Neil, exaggerating to ridiculous extents like the way you're doing above does not prove your point, nor does it disprove others'.

No-one is suggesting you have to divorce your wife or not look after the kids to be a real fan. No-one is suggesting you have to live in your club's ground to be a real fan. No-one is suggesting going to big games only is breaking the law. Football just doesn't take that much of your life. It's two hours every other week if you just go to every home game of your club. And you can bring the family.

OwlsFan is right to look down on those who just attend the big games. It's called bandwagon jumping. Of course, those who only attend the big games don't like to have such a negative stigma attached to them and seek to reduce its importance by slagging those who call them bandwagon jumpers or who say they're no less of a fan, but it's true. (Note that there's a difference between only going to the big games because they're the big games and only going to games occasionally because that's all you have time/money to do. The issue of stopping people getting tickets is also irrelevant in a debate about who's a bigger or more respected fan).

My experience of people who follow English teams is that many do so because the teams are successful - not because of any emotional or local ties. It's very easy to pick a team because they're successful and because it's cool. It's far from easy to pick your local team and follow them through thick and thin. It's also far more enjoyable and, I suppose, meaningful. Again, the English bar-stool fans will argue adamantly that they can support who they want and that they choose to support Chelsea/Man Utd/Arsenal/whoever because of the quality, not because of the locality - yet they'll support Ireland over Brazil, which makes no sense. And they'll even choose Chelsea over Barcelona, which makes no sense. Even the fans of the English clubs Irish people support by-and-large can't understand our attitude. Basically, bar-stool fans are trying to justify being brainwashed by Sky Sports, hence the contempt from some eL fans.

Sport is about local emphasis. Every other sport in Ireland, we'll follow the Irish participant. We might appreciate the best in the world, but we'll always follow the Irish. Snooker - Ken Doherty. Rugby - the provinces. Golf - Clarke/Harrington/McGinley and so on. GAA - your home parish/county. The media focus on Irish teams and competitors in hockey, cricket, show-jumping and other sports. Football is the only sport in which Irish people en masse choose to support a foreign team, and justify it by bashing their local team.

Obviously, this debate will go around and around ad infinitum, because it predicts that bar-stoolers will continue to be brainwashed into believing that they're right. It also predicts that local sports fans will be adamant that they're right (which of course we are; we have the arguments to prove it). None of which, of course, will stop this thread rearing its head again in a year or two's time...

Nobody is right to look down at anybody. It is a democratic society we live in and everybody has equal rights. People should not look down on others whether that be fore racial, monetary or footballing reason. Everybody is equal under the eyes of the constitution so this idea of looking down on somebody is rubbish.

The point I will make is that everybody is guilty of bandwagon jumping in various parts of their life. The person who goes to EL week in week out may suddently go to a David Gray gig as soon as he becomes successful. Maybe he should not go to this gig if he was not there at the start and did not go to the club gigs when David Gray was starting out. Both Music and football are forms of entertainment. You have people who have various choices in life and they choose to be entertained in whatever way they see fit. If they like going to Richmond Park on Friday night fair play. If they prefer to go to Shelbourne park to the dogs well then fair play. If they like to sit in pub and watch sky again fair play. They are entitled to do that that without having people look down on them. The only issue is regarding tickets for big matches. If a person goes to all the ireland games and then cant get one for a big match because a guy in a corporate company wants to go that is wrong. Otherwise I dont see why people get annoyed by it. Enjoy whatever football you like and less of the talking down to others who prefer to spend their time as their will. Also It is never good to lecture down to people and it will never be a good ploy to entice people to watch EL football.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Nobody is right to look down at anybody. It is a democratic society we live in and everybody has equal rights.

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I actually have a fundamental disagreement with this - I think it's PC nonsense. Democracy doesn't mean you can do what you want. It is a democratic right to criticise people who make decisions and back them up with foolish arguments, such as those I've pointed out above. People abuse democracy and freedom of speech to justify any sort of nonsense.

I never said you can do what you want. But you are entitled to do what you want as long as it does not break the law in that particular country. You can criticise anybody you like. The point I am trying to make is that it serves no purpose for people to be bitter about band wagon jumpers or even junkies etc. They are doing no harm to you so just live your life and enjoy it. It certainly will not entice fans to the EL if people are acting in a snobbish way to it. As I said before Owls fan could be snobby towards fans that just go to big games. However someone who goes to El games could be snobby to someone who just goes Ireland internationals. We all have a certain amount of free time and we chose to spend it as we wish. If you or I wanna spend our friday evenings at an EL league in order to be entertained that is our wish and we are entitled to do so. But another person is entitled not to do that and he/she can go watch the Late Late show or Jonathan ross or whatever they wanna do.

I dont see the point in slagging or looking down at these people cause they made a different choice to your or I in how they would like to be entertained. THe only problem I see with it is, if the band wagon jumpers come along and take tickets from the supporters who go in week in week out. It is up to the authorities to stop this happening. Regarding international games this system is largely in place. Regarding EL games its not such a problem as very few games are sell outs.


Finally I am sure if all of a sudden the EL got very very popular you would probably have guys on here posting saying that all these new fans do not have a clue and they are ruinging the fun for the real supporter. They preferred it when there was a hardcore of 2,000 going to the games etc. When you have a large gathering of people you are always going to get those that are more commited that the next person whether that be a band and you know all the songs or a team and you go every week an dyou know all the players and the game is your passion. But at the end of the day its just various forms of entertainment and you and I have chosed to be entertained by football.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I dont see the point in slagging or looking down at these people cause they made a different choice to your or I in how they would like to be entertained. THe only problem I see with it is, if the band wagon jumpers come along and take tickets from the supporters who go in week in week out.

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The biggest problem I have with this is when fans of TV football slag off our teams and people who go to games here. If they kept their opinions to themselves we could ignore them like I, and I'm sure many others, would like to.

Comparing music or tv shows to football is ridiculous and is always brought up by barstoolers. It was brought up when that whole wimbledon farce reared its head a few years back. And no Neil I'm not saying you're a barstooler. But if you are you deserve contempt.

How hard is it to understand that if you're Irish you should support an Irish club? Travel to any country in the world and this is the norm. The locals will follow their local side. But of course we have the "Best Supporters in the World":rolleyes:

And its not a "ploy" to entice people to EL games. Barstoolers cant think for themselves anyway. EL fans are more than entitled to abuse these people simply because they continually look down on their own league while not seeing their own laughable hypocrisy.

KOH

Well this is a real sore point alright. Been posting on another site over the past few months and this topic always seems to cause tempers to run high.

Anyway I am from Liverpool, of umpteen levels of irish decent and brought up as irish but Liverpool is my local team. From the age of 5 I stood every home without fail in the boys pen on the old spion kop. I have lived here for many years. In the last year or so I started attended EL games. My first was rovers v bohs and it was very enjoyable. It was a throwback to the 80's to be in a ground where every single fan was connected with their club and only cared about the result. Since then I have attended games on a regular basis but I must admit I am something of a floating voter.

I still travel to Liverpool games quiet regularly, I attended the game last saturday in Old Trafford. The people you meet travelling to these games are well-to-do sorts. They dont understand the club like locals do, Hillsborough probably doesnt really hurt them. I wont be going to the cup final, I wont get a ticket but people here are paying €1,000 for a day trip to the game.

Anfield and most premiership grounds have changed drastically over the past 10 years, its obscenely corporate and pc. You can be ejected from a ground home or away for swearing or standing continuously. 50% or Liverpool fc home tickets go to people outside Liverpool now.

I tell people I see going to games that I attend EL fixtures and ask them why they dont go. They give me 2 distinct reasons, (a) because of the poor standard of football (b) cos of the trouble at games. I finding (b) hilarious. I have seen small isolated incidents of hassle at a few games (bohs v shels at the end of last season) but NOTHING on the scale of the hooliganism that occurs at certain PL fixtures. Last weekend, the toilets were smashed in the liverpool end, the walls were covered with Munich, Shipman and George Best graffiti and the mancs wrecked anfield when they played there in Feb. Man u fans hung banners on the bridges of the motorway saying "96 wasnt enough" last weekend.

Anyway for me the only reason they follow my local team, is cos its fashionable and quiet frankly its easy with our history in terms of trophies.

FYI - vendors outside anfield charge OOT (out-of-towners) more for the crap they sell which always amuses me.

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Comparing music or tv shows to football is ridiculous and is always brought up by barstoolers. It was brought up when that whole wimbledon farce reared its head a few years back. And no Neil I'm not saying you're a barstooler. But if you are you deserve contempt.

How hard is it to understand that if you're Irish you should support an Irish club? Travel to any country in the world and this is the norm. The locals will follow their local side. But of course we have the "Best Supporters in the World":rolleyes:

And its not a "ploy" to entice people to EL games. Barstoolers cant think for themselves anyway. EL fans are more than entitled to abuse these people simply because they continually look down on their own league while not seeing their own laughable hypocrisy.

KOH

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But what happens if someone does not buy into the idea of nationality and the idea of a nation. Some people feel that is a obsolete idea that is part of the 20th and is not relevant in contemporary society. It can be argued that football is an entertainment industry and people are entitled to attend whatever event they would like to, whether this be a football match at Richmond Park or a football match at Anfield. Also you have not shown why comparing football to music is ridiculous. They are both forms of entertainment and both are parts of the culture of a society. Both football and music are open to outside influence and both also contained intrinsic aspects of the country that they are played in.


This idea that if you are irish you should support Ireland is open to debate also. You are entitled to support whoever you like. I am from Ireland and I feel Irish so I buy into the idea of Irish identity and the idea of nationhood and Irish culture etc. But I am quite willing to except that someoby could be Irish but could feel no affinity towards this country or its football teams and are interested in supporting other teams and other leagues. That is their right to do so and to be honest if they want to let them away with it. Looking down on them treating them with contempt or being rude to them achieves nothing.

Also anybody who only attends EPL games and slags off the Eircom League and abuses people for going to EL games is out of order also in my view.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

But what happens if someone does not buy into the idea of nationality and the idea of a nation. Some people feel that is a obsolete idea that is part of the 20th and is not relevant in contemporary society.

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They wouldn't support Ireland then though would they?

They may do, as they like that team. There is also another scenario of somebody supporting only Ireland because they are from Mayo or Clare or some place where there is no EL team. They support Ireland but do not support an EL team as they have no affinity with that team. There is also other examples of people coaching at lower levels and contributing huge amounts to Irish football but because they dont support an EL team they get looked down on etc. My point is that looking down on somebody or treating people with contempt achieves nothing and is not a positive action that actually improves the situation in anyway. It is only done to massage the persons ego and the help them believe that they somehow are a real supporter.

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

They may do, as they like that team. There is also another scenario of somebody supporting only Ireland because they are from Mayo or Clare or some place where there is no EL team. They support Ireland but do not support an EL team as they have no affinity with that team. There is also other examples of people coaching at lower levels and contributing huge amounts to Irish football but because they dont support an EL team they get looked down on etc. My point is that looking down on somebody or treating people with contempt achieves nothing and is not a positive action that actually improves the situation in anyway. It is only done to massage the persons ego and the help them believe that they somehow are a real supporter.

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Thats just your opinion and on the last sentence you are wrong. Again you cant compare music to football. If you have to ask for reasons then thats sad..........

KOH

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Originally Posted by NeilMcD

But what happens if someone does not buy into the idea of nationality and the idea of a nation. Some people feel that is a obsolete idea that is part of the 20th and is not relevant in contemporary society. It can be argued that football is an entertainment industry and people are entitled to attend whatever event they would like to, whether this be a football match at Richmond Park or a football match at Anfield. Also you have not shown why comparing football to music is ridiculous. They are both forms of entertainment and both are parts of the culture of a society. Both football and music are open to outside influence and both also contained intrinsic aspects of the country that they are played in.

This idea that if you are irish you should support Ireland is open to debate also. You are entitled to support whoever you like. I am from Ireland and I feel Irish so I buy into the idea of Irish identity and the idea of nationhood and Irish culture etc. But I am quite willing to except that someoby could be Irish but could feel no affinity towards this country or its football teams and are interested in supporting other teams and other leagues. That is their right to do so and to be honest if they want to let them away with it.

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All very eloquent Neil, but ultimately complete rubbish. If the concept of a national identity were dying, "Irish" (if you wish) people would be supporting Brazil, France, Germany or England. They don't - they support Ireland, and the whole point of this thread is to show that huge amounts of people spend huge amounts of money doing it. I've never met an Irish person who supports a different country over Ireland.

Nobody is denying that people don't have a right to support foreign club teams - what they are saying is that there is a strong argument to be made for saying that someone who sits in the pub "following" "their" team (which they picked because they were doing well) is much less of a fan than someone who supports their local team week in week out.

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Originally Posted by Schumi

The biggest problem I have with this is when fans of TV football slag off our teams and people who go to games here. If they kept their opinions to themselves we could ignore them like I, and I'm sure many others, would like to.

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I would suggest if this alleged tv viewing is such an issue that our 'real' fans lead by example to highlight the point. :)

At the last check, the world football forum was full of quite a few self proclaimed 'real' fans commenting on what I assume, is TV viewing of UK & european football (based on the notion that their obvious anti feelings towards it wouldn't permit them to attend a game not involving Irish teams).

I can't remember ever posting on anything topical in an Eircom League forum besides the odd 'for my own info' question on Dublin City, my chosen passing interest. Others mightn't be as tight lipped as me on commenting on Eircom League issues but perhaps they will see the errors of their ways when our 'real' fans show them how to go about not giving their opinions on things they have no interest, little knowledge or would ever want to watch live.

One rule for all should help solve that issue, imo. :)

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Originally Posted by Karlos_Irl

Others mightn't be as tight lipped as me on commenting on Eircom League issues but perhaps they will see the errors of their ways when our 'real' fans show them how to go about not giving their opinions on things they have no interest, little knowledge or would ever want to watch live.

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Not really. I don't think you can justify sitting in a pub and calling it "supporting" by saying you don't give out about others.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Not really. I don't think you can justify sitting in a pub and calling it "supporting" by saying you don't give out about others.

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I'm not sure I fully get what your saying here. Someone made a comment about TV watching football fans commenting on Eircom League games and how they would love to ignore it. I'm saying maybe they won't comment (particualry here) if the same people, who are going in to football forums they are claiming to have no interest, stop doing exactly the same.

I have absolutely no shame in taking my Ireland tickets every time as I have done for the majority of my life and not attending regualar Eircom matches with the 'real' fans. Am I less a fan than others? I don't think so in fact perosnally I feel my 6 hours a week in community football when I'm at home stands well against anyone else's 90 minutes of Eircom League action in the ridiculous 'real' fan stakes..

I honestly believe some people on both sides actually just love the situation as it is. I think it was Neil who said, if things changed people would give out about that too & I think he hit the nail on the head there, to be honest.

There's some sweeping generalistaions being made about anyone who doesn't actively support an eircom league team - the same type of sweeping generalisations that in return, are infuriating Eircom League fans, I might add.

There's a lot of growing up required on both sides, in my opinion. :)

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Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

I have absolutely no shame in taking my Ireland tickets every time as I have done for the majority of my life and not attending regualar Eircom matches with the 'real' fans. Am I less a fan than others? I don't think so in fact perosnally I feel my 6 hours a week in community football when I'm at home stands well against anyone else's 90 minutes of Eircom League action in the ridiculous 'real' fan stakes..


:)

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I couldnt agree more with this post, and the 6 hours is probably an underestimate as it's 2 evenings and a half day at the weekend, not a match once a fortnight followed by a few beers!!

And just to emphasise people who support a team by way of going to matches weather it's the EL, LSL, DDSL or whatever are just as much supporters. The point is real supporters come in various guises!