Tonights CL

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06/04/2006, 2:01 PM
Stuttgart88

Quote:

Originally Posted by d f x-

'Arsenal doing their job' really must undermine performances where teams have actually stopped teams from playing (i.e. 'enacting their gameplan')despite them being on top form, Chelsea v. Liverpool CL semi final - just won the league but only 1 shot on target in 190 minutes of pressure is one perfect example of doing a job under pressure.

Ok, so fair play to Arsenal they're through, but no-one can seriously, be unbiased and say that they 'held out' and were terrific.

I don't think anyone is comparing Arsena's result in Juventus to Liverpool's results against Chelsea. I certainly didn't suggest Arsenal stopped anyone from playing either or had any gameplan to do so.

On on the point of being "unbiased": sure, I'm an Arsenal fan and am bound to see things from that particular slant, though I always try to be objective.

But are you sure you're being unbiased yourself? You seem pretty begrudging, and almost upset that they're through.

One more point: please don't confuse my enthusiasm for Arsenal's performances with the English media's analysis. As always, the English media have everything won long before the game even takes place. It really irked me this week I can tell you.
06/04/2006, 2:09 PM
Karlos

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I dont think Giles ever said that Arsenal had a great team.

Sorry for the confusion but that's what it looks like from your post as I said, I didn't see the interview.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Juventus were rubbish last night and I think Giles was right when he said a really great Arsenal team would have beaten them by 2 or 3 goals..

We've had some really great teams, which one is he talking about or am I to understand he's talking about a fictitious great Arsenal team? Either way, his point is irrelevant in my opinion. Arsenal didn't need great last night, they needed to go through with minimal fuss. Job done.
06/04/2006, 2:20 PM
NeilMcD

Again confusion he was saying that a really great Arseanl team as in if that team was really great they would have beaten Juventus by 2 or 3 goals. He was not saying that they previously ha da great team in the past. Also Giles never said they needed to be great but he is assessing them and saying they are not a great team and this is what a great team would have done etc etc.
06/04/2006, 2:33 PM
Stuttgart88

Giles is really being picky though, no?

I don't think anyone is saying this is a great Arsenal team. How can they be? It's a transitional team with a makeshift defence, including a guy who's only got a hanfdul of senior games under his belt at right back & a team which has won no trophies.

But what is notable is that this transitional team is putting in a series of quality performances. OK, so we disagree on the merits of last night, but the away game in Madrid, the home game against Juve and several recent domestic performances were as good as any English team has put in in a long time.

If Giles is to be consistent in his quest for perfection, I'm sure he'd have no difficulty picking holes in the other semi-finalists too. Barcelona's defence, AC Milan's general lack of anything positive of note...

If, as Karlos has suggested, Arsenal had one of those freak nights where all, or even only some, of their chances were taken we'd be seeing last night in a totally different view.

I suspect Giles' standpoint is in response to the English media's usual over-assessment of what Arsenal has done, and is likely to do. On Monday every paper I read practically had them in the final already. They'll never learn & Giles would be right to counter.
06/04/2006, 2:38 PM
NeilMcD

To be fair to Giles he was asked his opinion on the game last night by Bill O Herlihy and his view was that Arsenal played poorly and that they did nto keep the ball and they were sloppy at times at the back and that they should have had the tie killed off before half time. The reason he said this was that Juve were so bad but that football is a funny game and that the longer it stayed 0-0 Juve could have fluked a goal and then Arsenal would have been under pressure. His view was that if they started doing thigns right at the start kept the ball they could have had the tie killed off and not had that worry at the back of their mine. He was not suggesting that they bomb forward or anything like that.

In addition he said that Milan were a shambles the night before and that he does not think that Barca are a great team but have a great forward line but have a number of flaws in their team.
06/04/2006, 2:40 PM
NeilMcD

John Giles

He won two league titles, two FA Cups, two Fairs Cups, one league cup and played for, captained and managed his country. He's genial Leeds and Republic of Ireland legend John Giles.

Paul Doyle
Friday April 29, 2005

How's it going, John?
Great thanks, Small Talk!

When people talk about footballing hard men, your name, like Alan Shearer's elbow, automatically comes up ...
I suppose it was justified but I slightly resent it when people say I was just a hard man. The 60s were a hard time and as a little guy and a creative player, I tended to get singled out so I quickly learned that I had to stick up for myself.

Article continues

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You famously clashed with Kevin Keegan in the 1974 Charity Shield. Are you going to deny punching him?
Well... [long intake of breath] Keegan was quite an emotional lad and he was in one of his moods that day. He'd been involved in a couple of tackles round the edge of the box. The ball broke loose between us, and I tried to shield it when he came in. And yeah I admit it, I swung a punch and caught him. The referee let me off with it...
But that wasn't the end of it...
[Warming to the theme] Me and Billy Bremner had this thing where we'd pass trouble on to each other. So Billy put in a few tackles on Keegan and was giving him a bit of the verbals. He must have hit a raw nerve because suddenly Keegan started punching him! Of course the two of them were sent off, but afterwards a lot of people said I should have gone before that. Which was a legitimate point.

Who was the hardest player you ever came up against?
Peter Storey of Arsenal and England. But I'll say one thing: in those days there was a code among players whereby you'd never try to get someone carded. You could get stuck into each other during the match but at the end you'd shake hands. There was violence and I'm not saying it was right, but at least no one ever tried to influence the referee - there was no diving or any of that rubbish.

So no place for faux hardmen like Patrick Vieira?
[Disgusted] No diving or rolling around or making silly gestures telling the referee to give cards. Some of the stuff that goes on today is shocking. Dreadful. Just dreadful.

You've got an impressive collection of medals. What was the highlight of your playing career?
Definitely my first cap for Ireland. It was against Sweden in 1959, just a few weeks before my 19th birthday and a year after they'd reached the World Cup Final. I'd always gone to Dalymount Park to watch the internationals as a kid and it was a dream come true to be sitting in the dressing room with guys like Noel Cantwell, Charlie Hurley, Joe Haverty - players who'd I'd idolised when watching from the terraces and who were now treating me as an equal. Sweden went 2-0 up but I scored a good goal to bring us back into the game and we ended up winning 3-2.

Club wise, your best years definitely came with Leeds ...
Yeah, I was 22 when I left Man United so my best years were always going to be in front of me. In Don Revie we had a great manager, and everyone at the place had the right approach and the right attitude. It was a club on the up and up.

How times have changed, eh?
In fairness, they've done well this season considering everything that happened. Many teams would have simply disappeared.

What was the biggest disappointment of your career?
[Immediately, as if the pain's still close to the surface] 1973. Losing the FA Cup Final to Sunderland. They were in the Second Division and it was a huge blow. I don't think we were complacent, but Sunderland played well and had the luck you need in games like that.

The FAI recently voted you as the Republic of Ireland's greatest ever player. Small Talk would have quite liked them to get yourself and Roy Keane to fight for that honour ..
[Laughs] I've great admiration for Keane, he's a tremendous player. If forced to compare us, I'd say I was slightly more creative than him and he's a better ball-winner. But when it comes to Ireland's greatest ever players, you'd also have to consider the likes of Paul McGrath, Liam Brady, Mark Lawrenson ...

What do you make of Lawro as a pundit?
[Long, awkward pause] I suppose if you're talking about English TV, you'd have to say Lawrenson and Hansen are the best of them. [Another pause] Hansen can be very repetitive ... but he's still one of the best, which probably tells you what I think of the others!

You do a lot of punditry for the Irish media but do you secretly hanker after a return to management?
[Emphatically] No! No desire at all to go back. I didn't enjoy it when I was in it.

What do you make of Brian Kerr? Will his conservatism cost Ireland a place in next year's World Cup?
No, I don't think he's too defensive. I still feel we'll beat France in Dublin and top the group.

What was the last CD you bought?
Can't remember the last one I bought. But I get a lot as presents. The last one was probably a Nat King Cole compilation.

Word is you're a fair singer yourself on a night out ...
[Modest chuckle] Ah, I have a go. I like singing stuff by Nat King Cole, Perry Como, Johnny Mathis ... you know, all the old timers!

What's your favourite TV programme?
I really enjoyed the World at War series narrated by Lawrence Olivier. I like nature documentaries too.

You must have made a few enemies over the years. Who or what would you put in Room 101?
Ah, I don't waste my time hating. Though after some games of golf, I feel like throwing my clubs in there!

What's your poison
Bacardi and Coke, it's my only drink. I can't drink beer or wine.

Cheese or chocolate?
Neither really.

Did you follow a strict diet when you were a player or did you embrace the excess of the 60s?
My attitude was always that football is a hard game and if you don't look after yourself you're just making it even harder. So I was very careful and my weight remained at a constant 10st 2lbs for 15 or 16 years.

Who'd win a fight between a lion and a tiger?
The nature programmes I watch suggest lions are stronger. In fact, I've seen a few scraps between them and it's usually the lion that wins!

Thanks for the chat, John!
No problem, Small Talk.
06/04/2006, 3:09 PM
Karlos

Your on the money there Stuttgart. Quality post. :)
06/04/2006, 4:26 PM
OwlsFan

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I was talkilng about last nights game owls. it would be ridiculous for me to suggest that he does not have any bias as there is not a person on the planet that comments on everything from an objective point of view. Of course he has bias in certain ciscumstances which are formed by his experiences just like you or me. But in this case he does not have any clear bias in favour or against Arsenal.

Just as an aside I presume you are talking about Keane above and I always found that Giles was very middle ground in relation to Keane, maybe its you that has the bias there.

No, I didn't mean Keane (for a change). Not even sure where I was supposed to have mentioned him. Giles is biased against Premiership teams whever they play in Europe and along with the poison dwarf (I make no apologies for name calling here) never resists having a go at them. Arsenal are a Premiership team and ipso facto he has a bias against them. To say he is without bias is therefore incorrect for the match last night I believe.
06/04/2006, 4:33 PM
NeilMcD

He has a bias against the present day Premiership along with that person whose name I dare not speak. He had a bias against Charlton and McCarthy. He has a bias against Chelsea - the list goes on.
__________________

Sorry I thought the person whose name you dare not speak was Keane. Sorry about that. I would say that you see Giles as biased against Premierhip teams in Europe due to the focus and style of the show. They seem to focus on Premiership teams and they are the team that are under teh focus. He does not know about other European leagues as much because has he said last night come Sunday evening he is sick of football at that stage. The show is set up that the Premiership team are the one that will be shown and focussed on and their good and bad aspects will be looked at.

I would say that Giles wanted Arsenal to win last night but he was just putting them under the microscope and seeing if they were as good as a team as last week promised. Going on last night performance in his view they are not.
06/04/2006, 5:04 PM
dfx-

Quote:

Jens Lehmann's handling & positioning. Arsenal's breaking on the counter. Henry's first touch. Eboue's raiding of the right flank. Toure's reading of the game. Fabregas' ability to take a difficult ball, control it and turn in the same motion and have the vision to pick the best pass available, all in an instant.

It did help that Emerson couldn't pass to save his life, Juventus had no midfield worthy of the title and they had Ibrahimovic. Eboue raiding the right flank of a left back who was inept - it was hardly Thuram. Lehmann - two maybe three saves, maybe 6 real touches of the ball?

Quote:

Originally Posted by KarlosIRL

Ambition was to get to the semi-final, nothing else. Ambition achieved. Is that enough ambition?

Ach, if that's the only response, I give up...:rolleyes:

Time for realism, no-one is saying Arsenal didn't deserve to go through because they were indeed better than Juventus, however what I am arguing is some people's rosiness of how great a performance it was - it was poor against dross. Bremen should've beaten them afterall. A severely limited Juventus team going forward, predictable, dull, tedious, slow, painful to watch...why wouldn't you deserve to beat them?!

What I am disappointed is that we never did get to see how Arsenal might react if it was really put to them. It wasn't. Villareal should do. That should be a match worthy of the competition and then if they win, Arsenal may be able to say that was a great performance...but NOT last night..
06/04/2006, 10:54 PM
geysir

I would have thought the obvious first choice game for neutrals to watch last night was a nervy Barcelona V Benfica. By some miraculous twist of fate Barca were not already 6 goals up from the first leg. If only Barca could reduce their goals from shots ratio to about 1/40.
07/04/2006, 9:53 AM
NeilMcD

Yeah but I like to watch both games not know the result and the best way to do this (usually) is to watch the Irish stations as they show the highlights after the other game. However the last few nights RTE and TV3 reached an all time new low. Ronnie Whelan told us that Inter had gone out at the end of the Milan Lyon game. Then on Wednesday night RTE put up the semi final fixtures before the Barcelona Benfica match, clearly showing Milan V Barc. I was fuming for the 2nd night running. Highlights are so much better when you dont know the results.
07/04/2006, 9:56 AM
Clifford

Quote:

Originally Posted by geysir

I would have thought the obvious first choice game for neutrals to watch last night was a nervy Barcelona V Benfica.

I watched both on the multi screen. Works a treat.
07/04/2006, 10:04 AM
NeilMcD

We all dont have the fancy multi screenn and can you really watch 2 games properly at once. Usually RTE is spot on as they have 2 games which you can watch while not know the score. Why they tell you the scores from the others I dont know either I would much rather that you found out at the end of the night when they do the goals package. I try to avoid scores on Saturdays too for the Premiership too. Makes it so much better.
07/04/2006, 10:19 AM
Clifford

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

We all dont have the fancy multi screenn and can you really watch 2 games properly at once.

It's not that fancy to be honest, it's ridiculous during the group stages when up to 8 games can be on, but I manage.

With two it's a cinch, of course you can watch em both as very little happens during games anyway.

Shame rte and tv3 gave the game away, it's for reason's like that I gave up awaiting scores like you are able to do. I kept getting text's and hearing on radio or news bullitins.
07/04/2006, 10:28 AM
Stuttgart88

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Usually RTE is spot on as they have 2 games which you can watch while not know the score. Why they tell you the scores from the others I dont know either I would much rather that you found out at the end of the night when they do the goals package. I try to avoid scores on Saturdays too for the Premiership too. Makes it so much better.

Agreed, though I usually can't wait until late on a Saturday to get the scores.

The worst was when you had to wait until late on a Wednesday night to watch only brief highlights, way before the mass TV coverage you get these days. When highlights were so short you expected every snippet of action will either be a goal or a near miss. My heart was in my mouth every time they'd show an opposition attack.

I watched Juve vs Arsenal in The Corrib Rest in NW London, expecting that at least one of their 8 screens would have the Celtic match on too, but they didn't. They showed the SKY coverage but would rather have watched RTE which they are actually able to show as they use the Irish SKY card.

He may be biased (who isn't?) but I still far prefer listening to Giles more than any other pundit & it's something I miss.
07/04/2006, 10:44 AM
NeilMcD

Yeah The Premiership is on RTE at around 7 so its not that hard to avoid it for 2 hours if you want too but getting all the way to Match of the Day would be pretty tricky. This weekend does not matter as much as most of the vital games are on either Sat morning or Sunday.
07/04/2006, 12:53 PM
Karlos

Italy Coach Marcelo Lippi (and one of Neill's ten best coaches in the world EVER! ;):) ), speaking directly after the performance by Arsenal against Juventus

http://home.skysports.com/list.asp?H...all_Home&f=rss

"The most beautiful thing in the Champions League this season has been Arsenal," said Lippi to Gazzetta dello Sport.

"Their growth has been incredible. They have done something which in Italy we could never allow ourselves to do.

"They have invested in youth and they are being rewarded.

"They started their season playing with Lauren, (Pascal) Cygan, (Sol) Campbell and (Ashley) Cole in defence but they eliminated Juve with (Emmanuel) Eboue, (Kolo) Toure, (Philippe) Senderos and (Mathieu) Flamini.
07/04/2006, 1:10 PM
NeilMcD

[QUOTE=KarlosIRL]Italy Coach Marcelo Lippi (and one of Neill's ten best coaches in the world EVER! ;):) ), speaking directly after the performance by Arsenal against Juventus

Karlos you are misquoting me and also its Neil with one L also. I did not say this was a definitive list of the ten best ever coaches. I said I could name ten that I felt were better than Wenger. However I agree with what Lippi has said about The Arsenal team this year.
07/04/2006, 1:42 PM
Karlos

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Karlos you are misquoting me and also its Neil with one L also. I did not say this was a definitive list of the ten best ever coaches. I said I could name ten that I felt were better than Wenger. However I agree with what Lippi has said about The Arsenal team this year.

It was a light hearted comment Neil (with one 'L') - see smileys! :)

I don't do offensive posts on Fridays! :)

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