Maybe once against San Marino now that you mention it. Not really a game too judge a defender though. Little enough interest in the underage games tbh; will keep an eye on the more knowledgeable posters' comments here on them, but that's about it. Let them break through at (decent) club level and then see if they're worth a senior call-upQuote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
So you don't watch them or have that much overall interest but you'll engage as you did above & say O'Mahony is a long way from doing anything etc ?Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
If you’re looking for a highlights vid, this is pretty good cause it’s about 50/50 centre midfielder / centre back. The usual caveats about highlights vids apply
https://youtu.be/f7uUVrdosgw?si=69yhH48N9_FkrfBa
I think the interesting question is at what point does it turn. If you look at the Stephen Kenny u21s side and later, I think they're the better team (so born 1998 and after). But I think if you go the next group on, so 2000 and later, you pick the older team.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
So 1998 and younger:
1998 and younger
Kelleher
O’Shea
Collins
O’Brien/Omobamidele/Scales
Garcia McNulty
Molumby/Hodge/Lawal
Smallbone
Knight/Azaz/Sykes
Ebosele/Farrugia/Armstrong
Ferguson/Idah/Parrott/Obafemi/Cannon
Johnston/Connolly
vs
1997 and older:
O’Leary
Doherty/Coleman
Egan
Duffy
Brady/Manning
Cullen
Browne
McGrath
Ogbene
Szmodics
O’Dowda/Robinson
----------
Whereas I'd take the older team when you go down to 2000+
1999 and older:
Kelleher
Doherty/Coleman
O’Shea
Egan/Duffy/Scales
Manning/Brady
Cullen
Molumby/Browne
McGrath
Ogbene
Szmodics
Johnston
vs
2000 and younger:
Bazunu
Lyons/O’Connor/Curtis
Collins
O’Brien/Omobamidele
Garcia McNulty
Hodge/Lawal/Coventry/Connell/Kilkenny
Smallbone
Knight/Azaz
Ebosele/Armstrong
Ferguson/Idah/Parrott/Obafemi/Cannon
Connolly
Yes, O'Mahony is a long way off doing anything yet. We've seen plenty of players make a few sub appearances (or even more substantial contributions) in the PL but fade away. Absolutely fair dues to him getting a couple of PL games at 19 but in terms of someone we should be getting actively excited about; someone about whom you could reasonably say "very few countries in the world if any have a list of strikers eligible for 21s that's as exciting as what we have"? Not yet. He's done what Joe Hodge and Conor Coventry have done before him for example (and they were talked up here at the time too)Quote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
All in my view obviously; if you have a view to the contrary you're free to make it
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Yeah but Mark is like 6th or 7th in a list - and yet he’s a teenager who’s started in the premier league. And he’d get into the majority of u21 international squads - where you’ve normally got 3 centre forwards.
- Evan Ferguson - total phenom. Injury riddled season which sapped his confidence, but apart from pace, he’s pretty much the complete striker. Excellent intelligent build up play, scores with both feet, with his head. In the very top tier of teenage strikers in the world
- Troy Parrott - a very good loan under the belt where he scored 17 for Excelsior. Many of us would remember that preseason at age 17 against Juve, Real Madrid and United, where he was exceptional. Finally looks like realising the potential after a few tough loans in the championship. Similarly not the fastest but a technically better footballer than Ferguson.
- Tom Cannon - bought for £7.5m + sell on fee by Leicester a year ago, on the back of an excellent loan at Preston, where he outplayed Parrott. Fast, direct, strong and a good finisher, also good movement and good strikers instincts.
- Sinclair Armstrong - not the most prolific. He’s been the 21s first choice striker this campaign. But he’s absolute unit. He’s so strong, fast, powerful, and he’s an absolute nightmare to defend against. He’s caused so much grief to some really good defences (Italy u21s in particular). The physical attributes are Nunez-esque, he just powers past defenders at pace with such ease.
- Emakhu - might end up being a winger, but he’s played up front as part of Crawford’s 5-3-2 most of the campaign. Arguably been the 21s best player so far this campaign, quick reactions, presses well, fast, decent link up play, good movement, a quick change of direction and a good finisher. Wouldn’t be too worried about the goalscoring record at Millwall. He hasn’t been playing up front for them, they’ve played him out wide and even in midfield. He also hasn't really gotten the consistent minutes. Besides, Millwall score **** all, I’d say they’re one of the lowest scoring teams in the championship. He’s only 20 and he’s a breakout season away from being someone that everyone is really excited about.
- Mark O’Mahony - absolutely prolific at underage level for Ireland. He signed for Brighton last season from Cork and in less than a year he was making match day squads, and in his first full season at the club, he’d made first premier league start. He does have a huge way to go, but he’s 3 years younger than Troy and the progress he’s made so far has been excellent. No certainties but there’s a reason he’s scored all those goals at youth level
- Nathan Fraser - similarly another teenager with premier league experience, he’s got a lot of similar attributes to Tom Cannon but he’s a couple of years younger. He was excellent against Brentford in the cup - and there’s real potential there. He hasn’t quite made it stick at Wolves but he was 18/19 year old playing in what was then a top half team. It’s not an easy breakthrough to make. Sure maybe he'll defect to England - but as we've seen with Tom Cannon - I wouldn't worried about that until it happens.
- As a bonus, I’ll throw in Johnny Kenny. You could easily write him off but he does have the best goals to minutes ratio in the League of Ireland this season, which at age 20, is pretty impressive. Long way to go to being seriously thought about at senior level but he’s finally beginning to look like a good player again after regressing at Celtic. Even if he's unlikely to make the grade, as an 8th player in a position where you need 3 options in a squad, it’s not bad at all.
Genuinely the depth of attacking talent there is impressive. I really think it stands up 1-8 against most other countries (specifically for centre forwards - Evan will be better than almost all #1s, Troy will be better than most #2s and so on, all the way down). I get the Jonathan Rowe appreciation, but he’s a winger and I was very specifically and intentionally talking about strikers, centre forwards, not wingers - as best as one can make that distinction.
I remember not so long ago, watching an u21s team, where the most exciting striker was Reece Grego Cox. He was our first choice. His backup was Joe Quigley. Both were playing in the Conference (and they still are). We’ve come a long long long way since then… And the issue we've seen over the last number of years at senior level have more to do with the issues we had developing players during that period (players born between 1993 and 1997) than it has to do with anything else...
That's a super post, and shows there's genuine hope for a bright futureQuote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Nice post. Informative and knowledgeable. The kind of contribution that encourages visits to the forum.Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
& in stark contrast to the poster you're replying to who basically nests daily on most topics but turns out he doesn't watch them & actually has minimal interest in the 21s.
It's all a bit aspirational though, isn't it?
I mean, I wouldn't worry about Fraser until he accepts a call-up to be honest. Millwall don't score many goals, but that's not the attacker's fault? Armstrong may give grief to defences but in the San Marino game I watched, he hadn't a notion where the net was. (He was credited with a goal which to be honest he more tried to keep out). O'Mahony is prolific at underage level - but we've seen before it's a big step up to the senior game. And Johnny Kenny? Come on. You think players who can't make it in the Scottish second tier aren't dime a dozen?
That's not too write the guys off - though law of averages says they won't all make it at the required level for international football - but to give some perspective, particularly in the context of us being as well stacked in this area as any other country in the world, which is a big claim. Have we guys coming through worth keeping an eye on? Absolutely. But that's not what the claim was.
I'm sure Crafty, you'll agree I don't need to be watching every underage game, notepad in hand and anorak on, to suggest that 19 year olds playing the Champions League final are slightly ahead of our lot?
We're not long removed from claims Connolly and Obafemi and Afolabi and others were all 45 goal international forwards in the making, or that Conor Coventry and Joe Hodge were unbelievable omissions from the national squad. I'll settle for a bit of caution when it comes to big statements I think.
Quote:
Originally Posted by elatedscum
Nail on the head and what I've been saying for so long. Remember watching Euro 2016 + WC 2018 qualifiers and the likes of Richie Sadlier & Liam Brady were on air consistently banging the drum about "we've nothing coming through" and we consistently had one of the oldest squads in Europe, well the last 3-4 years have been a direct result of that with having little to no players coming through from the 1993-1997 age group. You can see we are starting to come out of it now and hopefully when we do eventually come out of it we stay out of it which I am confident we will as we have a nice steady flow of players coming through in pretty much every age group, some groups better than others ofcourse, so I am confident once we find our feet things will only improve.
Id be amazed if anyone thought Afolabi was going to be a 45 goal international, he had been released by Southampton.. And was anyone crying over Coventry not making squads? I know a few shouting for Hodge, but that was the usual nonsense with a promising dual nationality player. Connolly the only one who people were really excited about, and not without reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
I agree. There's a huge step up to senior football, which shouldn't be underestimated. Even top class talents need time to get to grips with it, physically and mentally. As much as new generations naturally need to be brought through, it bemuses me to see people being so quick to write off our best and most experienced players so glibly. In recent years, for example, some our fans would have us believe that, while Seamus Coleman was deemed good enough for Everton in the Premier League, he was no longer good enough for Ireland, as if we have the luxury of overlooking such players. Even heavyweights like Portugal and Italy have relied on their elder, tried and tested players. Pepe is 41, Ronaldo is 39, yet are still key for Portugal heading to Euro 2024. Italy won a European Championship three years ago with aging Chiellini and Bonucci at the back. Looking back at our own history, Staunton was 33 at the 2002 World Cup, Quinn was 35. Stan captained the team, Quinn caused havoc vs Germany and Spain. All of that is to say that I don't think there is much unusual or concerning about O'Shea calling up such players - it's about striking balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Did he join back up with the squad after his wedding?Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
That's right, it was part of the squad announcement that he'd be late joining upQuote:
Originally Posted by JR89
I distinctly remember a poster arguing that 3 of our teenaged strikers - Connolly and Parrott were two, I think, but I'm not sure of the third - argue that they were all going to score 45 goals for us. I remember it because I thought it was both quite a specific number and one of the more delusional things I'd read all year. Unfortunately, the search function seems to ignore numbers in search strings and it could have been on any number of threads. Let's not pretend people haven't been hyping players here as long as the site has been open. Some are more measured than others. A wait and see attitude with teens is broadly pretty sensible. Even the best of them can wither on the vine. It's understandable that that grates from time to time, but so too does the hype.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exgrad
Would assume Cullen being a nailed on starter he would have returned asap after his wedding. So wonder if Travers was told no rush as he's gonna be second choice this window.Quote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Do you mean 45 goals each or combined they could score 45 goals for us. Because I do remember something before were someone was talking about Parrott, and two others how combined they could get 45 goals between them.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Surprised Travers hasn't made it, I mean if Cullen made it back from the wedding in time there's no excuse for Travers really... :)
A very good post above regarding our developing strikers, would agree with almost all of it other than I would be cooler on Fraser's prospects regardless of which country he chooses and I think Kenny has a virtually 0% chance of ever being an established senior international for us. Also worth remembering that Idah as a 2001 born player is less than a year older than the oldest player on that list.
Just on Lawal, there was a suggestion among Celtic supporters that Rodgers was unimpressed with their youth coaches trying to turn him into a centre back and very much sees him as a central midfielder. Could be nonsense but hopefully not, it's as clear as day to me that that's his natural position.
I think it was more than 3 players, but I can't find it searching either (even though I remember who the poster was). And it was 45 goals each alright. Doesn't matter anyway. Here's a thread from 2018 which I think shows the danger of getting too far ahead of things.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
For what it's worth, if you look at the top scorers in the PL2 in 2018/19 (five years ago), they're a very mixed bunch -
Aaron Connolly (top scorer) - increasingly looks like he hasn't the aptitude to make it at the top level
Liam Cullen - solid Championship player with Swansea. 1 cap for Wales, and in the June squads
Eddie Nketiah - increasingly involved at Arsenal, though likely to be moving on in the summer. 1 cap for England.
Bassala Sambou - seems to be unattached; hasn't played since April last year, when he was with Oldham in the fifth tier
Jack Roles - a squad player at Crawley
Rafael Camacho - also unattached since 2023, when he was a squad player at Aris in Greece
Cameron Cresswell - was at Waterford last year. Not sure where he is now
Viktor Gyokeres - banging in the goals the last three years - 40 for Coventry in two seasons and 45 for Sporting Lisbon this season. 20 caps for Sweden
Xande Silva - MLS with Atlanta United
Joe Powell - Burton Albion
Nabili Zoubdi - Atletico Madrid reserves in the Spanish third tier.
Other years will likely be similar (I just picked that one cos it was 5 years ago and that's a round number). The reality is that's the odds even the better PL2 players are up against.