HH spoke about Finn, that he has been watched and there is ongoing contact. He said he'd had some good games but equally some poor ones. There has to be some merit involved here too & while he's clearly on the radar he's not there yet. Ebosele, Vata, McAteer, Cannon, McGuinness, Dunne, all guys with choices have been capped very recently, we're on this much better than we used to be. I'd say we'll see him in June.
I think out of all of those you listed there Vata is the one who pushed it a bit if we talk about a deserved call up, but you're spot on in that we've been quietly good at itQuote:
Originally Posted by CraftyToePoke
Vata looked a touch early on his cameo but clearly it was prevention over cure & Albania were all over it we feared traction, so it got dealt with best we can for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Looking back, Szmodics was probably at it a bit too but he's our player.
Ebosele, I read was capped because he was raging at Crawford over something & was talking to his options so again, it got sorted.
The others, McGuinness was picked over Duffy, two big lumps at the wrong end of the Championship, cap the dual & we duly capped the dual to end the duel. Nice.
Cannon was at it too, England wanted him to hedge but it got done. McAteer, just promoted, could have hedged like Hogan did but we got him.
Overall, enough fires quietly & quickly put out there to think Finn will be with us if we want him. But I'd agree, June is made for him & I'd be inclined to do it then.
Fair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Agree with SkStu's view on Finn. We're not a club team that can throw new players in for development. An international team can't get away with that quite as much. Fewer games for one. I think what I said about Phillips applies for Finn too - "Just because we're stuck for midfielders doesn't mean he's better than what we have already."
(Ronan Finn now - he could be the solution :) )
Mods any chance the title of this thread can be corrected to the correct spelling for St Mirren... my OCD is twitching every time I see it :D
But my point is that we know what we have isnt good enough so continuing to roll with that and not look for other solutions would be a very Irish answer to it.... "Sure its grand" kind of thing!Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
The summer friendlies is a perfect opportunity to have a look at some other lads in training at least. Ive no interest in seeing a Cullen Knight midfield against Luxembourg. It would be a complete waste of chance to evaluate other options. Yes we are stuck for midfielders and there is no guarantee that Patrick Finn is any better than what we have, but hes at least playing in a league thats a high enough level that the idea shouldnt be dismissed either. I think Killian Phillips would be worth bringing into camp too btw. I dont think hes better than what we have either but who knows once hes in around the group. Another option could be someone like Joe O'Brien Whitmarsh. Doing ok on loan, and with Southampton going down he could potentially be playing regularly in the Championship next season.
Friendlies are crap, no one likes to even watch them and the players will have very little interest in cutting short their holidays to play in them, so we should at least try make them productive by having a look for some other ideas
You don't need to call someone up to look at them though. You can watch their club games. (Or follow them on WyScout, as HH seems to like doing.)
You're potentially wasting a rare international window of you fill the squad with players you already know aren't good enough. O'Brien-Whitmarsh is miles away from a call-up for example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
O'Brien Whitmarsh is miles away from a call up right now, will he be in September? Hes already made match day squads in Premiership before the loan and its not beyond the realms of possiblity that he could be starting for them early next season. They are terrible and there will probably be a big clear out in the summer.
In general, Im personally just not a fan of continuing with the same problem without looking for some sort of solution. When the solution isnt blatantly obvious sometimes you have to get creative. In our case with the Irish midfield I would like to see the Collins thing again too. Just anything different, because if we go into the next WC Qualifiers as we are Id be fairly sure that we'll be watching the Tournament on TV again. Hungary will kill us in midfield with Szoboszlai.
Just one last thing on Patrick Finn. One of the games I watched him in this season was against PSG. He wasnt amazing, didnt do anything that necessarily stood out, good or bad. He was fine... but isnt fine at that level kinda notable? The O'Brien Whitmarsh example is a massive stretch considering hes playing in L2, Finn isnt as much of a stretch IMO based on the level of teams hes playing against, albeit in a small sample size.
Who knows? Let's see in September. Lots of junior players have made PL squads and done nothing since. There was a discussion about Adaramola in that regard a while back, and he then flopped in the Belgian league. Alex Murphy made a few PL squads and has done nothing since.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
When the solution isn't blatantly obvious, sometimes there's just not a solution and we have to accept that Cullen/Molimby/Knight may be the best options.
"Hungary will kill us in midfield with Szoboszlai" - so let's put an Accrington Stanley midfielder in instead. That makes sense.
Ok now youre just trying to be antagonistic. I used him as an example of a long shot to potentially look at in a summer friendly because he might be playing Championship football next season. I did not suggest that he will be in our starting midfield immediately. He was just part of the wider point.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Looking for outside the box solutions has served me well in life personally. I think calculated risks are worth taking at times. Obviously not everyone agrees so I wont continue to hammer the point.... Sure its grand, it'll be good enough!
It's less about the level they're playing at, more about the physical attributes we're lacking. David Meyler played most of his career at a lower level than Glenn Whelan and James McCarthy, but I always felt he gave the midfield the kind of aggression and athleticism that the other two lacked. He seemed to take more responsibility.
If we want to play more direct and pragmatic, we need a physical presence in midfield. We need to get our biggest, strongest, most athletic midfielders, and put them in there to win duels, break up play, and play simple passes. Knight and Cullen are not capable of doing that for us, we're back in the Hendrick/Hourihane situation all over again with those two. I definitely wouldn't object to seeing Finn and Phillips in the summer.
If we're looking for a midfielder that's genuinely better than some combination of Cullen, Knight, Smallbone, Taylor and Molumby we're going to have to find someone who isn't currently in the Irish system/setup to be honest. There's no hidden gem here, not one that's going to make a difference as soon as this autumn anyway.
Against stronger opposition I would want us to mitigate the problem by playing three centre mids at the expense of an attacker. Swapping out one of Parrott, Ferguson, Azaz or Ogbene for someone like Molumby might seem like a downgrade, but if it makes our midfielders look competent again then it would be a change worth making.
When Cullen first came into the team he was one of our best players playing in a midfield three - packing the midfield against stronger opposition was one of the few things Stephen Kenny got right and he was probably unlucky not to get a result or two from it while he was in charge.
It would be great to see Cullen in that setup again so he can hopefully remind us that he's a very decent player. Hallgrimsson doesn't seem up for that approach though - but what he may do against Portugal is pick all three of O'Brien, O'Shea and Collins and have Collins stepping into midfield again to help out. But I think it would make more sense to just pick three out and out midfielders. I hope he's smarter than to play a straight 4-4-2 against Portugal, we could get destroyed playing that way.
I wouldnt object to seeing Finn either but... it goes beyond just physicality being required. We need a host of attributes to augment our current midfield options. You have to be physically present but you have to bring with it some composure, passing range and the ability to take the ball on the turn. I have seen more of Phillips than Finn but he doesnt seem to have that yet. Finn, I cant reasonably comment. But those are the things that HH will be looking at and it is his call whether either are ready for a friendly test or even a "closer look". Finn has promise, I'm sure, but he is not an ever present for Reims and has seemingly been just "ok". That doesnt compare to Jake O'Brien who had an immense half season with Lyon last year, was a stand-out in a team that was pushing hard for Europe etc... the case there would be much stronger if Finn was at Jakes level.
That's exactly it. There's simply no point pretending otherwise.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
Good conversation. I hope the June friendlies are used to figure this out.
Thinking back to the Trap days, it was the exact same problem and we managed to qualify for the euros and basically qualify for the WC. Whelan, Andrews Gibson and Paul Green were our options. Compare that to Cullen, Taylor, Knight and Molumby and I don't think we're miles off. A Cullen/Taylor partnership could easily be an improvement if they can figure it out.
Maybe that's more depressing than reassuring but I'd argue the biggest problem is that HH hasn't yet figured out what our midfield system should be.
The one guy that none of us has mentioned in any of this is Smallbone, and thats telling in itself. Hes a nice footballer, was good in the Championship so you'd think he could really be a good option for us. Is it a mobility issue with him? At 25 is there still time that he could improve to take over our midfield? I dont think hes good enough defensively to be able to play in a 2 man midfield.
Taylor is the obvious answer in the short term. Hes going to be a Championship midfielder next season and youd have to hope he plays every week there.
There was a game I watched a few weeks ago where Finn showed some lovely feet at the edge of the box to beat a couple of defenders, and then ruined it with one of the worst dives Ive ever seen to try get a pen. It was a nothing piece of play, but it showed that he wasnt just a big lump of a lad and has a bit of skill to him.... the dive was actually so bad that I recorded it on my phone and I wouldnt even begin to know how to upload that here :DQuote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
In the Trap era we mainly launched it over midfield when in possession, so it didn't matter that our midfield was technically incapable. Out of possession we just parked the two centre mids in front of the back four and hoped for the best. We had days like the Russia game, where it sort of worked, but more days like the Croatia, Spain, Italy Euros games and the Germany qualifier where it fell apart fairly dramatically.
I would say our current midfield, for all it's flaws, is arguably marginally better than the Trap one. But we haven't produced any genuine quality central midfielders for 25 years or more. The best we've had since the Keane/Holland/Kinsella days was probably James McCarthy, who grew up in Scotland.
Wes Hoolahan raises his left footQuote:
Originally Posted by Eirambler
it's an interesting debate. if i had to find uncapped players in the midfield, this is where i'd look... i tried to grade the lads who have come to the fore at different times over the last few years in tiers.
Tier 1:
Don’t think there are any. Finn Azaz and Jack Taylor would have been Tier 1 players for me prior to their caps - don't thinl there's an obvious player right now. The T2 players are all a bit more contentious, but I do think it’s worth giving one or two an opportunity when we can like in a friendly.
Tier 2:
Bosun Lawal - needs to play football and his manager basically said they didn't have the luxury of helping him back from the injury and giving him first team football, given their 2 points above the relegation zone, but i think he's probably a player who makes his debut at some point next season for Ireland.
Joe Hodge - at 22, you can still visualise a really good midfielder, injuries have been really rough for him but despite his current League one status, he’s a player you can still dream big on if it all comes together.
Luca Connell - I think he’s a lovely midfielder, and anyone who has seen enough of his games will believe that. Has battled injury issues, illness and Celtic in his short career. There’s a reason he was named in the PFA Team of the Year at 22 and captain of Barnsley at 23 and it’s cause he’s a class above his peers at that level. I know he’s recently received criticism from Conor Hourihane (caretaker manager of Barnsley) but honestly I think that was just Hourihane attacking the two biggest dogs in the prison (Connell as captain and Adam Phillips as their other star player), hoping that if you drop them then you send a message to every other player that it’s a meritocracy and everyone needs to pull their weight and Conor has the proverbial stones to lift Barnsley out of the mess. Either way, it’ll probably take a championship move to force his way into contention but given his passing range and creativity and comfort under pressure, he’s someone who might be worth seeing sooner rather than later.
Killian Phillips - playing for an average team in a below average league. He’s extremely combative as a footballer. He’s got genuine desire to win that you don’t normally see and he scores more goals than you’d expect him to. Performances against Celtic and Rangers who give you hope and make a case for giving him an opportunity to see if he can elevate his game at international level. The big fear would be that he’d lack the technical ability to play at that level and also that he’s not the midfielder that we’re missing, although personally I think we are probably missing two types of midfielder, a really creative midfielder and a really dynamic combative one.
Connor Ronan - genuinely the most creative midfielder I’ve ever seen playing for the 21s and the closing thing we’ve come at that level to having someone show the creativity that Wes showed for Ireland and Norwich. He’s doing pretty well in an ok league. The numbers of assists have dried up but that’s cause he played much much deeper last season. Maybe he lacks the physicality needed but we could do worse than seeing him in a camp and seeing how he compares to Finn Azaz or Will Smallbone or Jamie McGrath.
John Joe Patrick Finn - he’s shown enough glimpses to get you excited. I saw his games against both Real Madrid and PSG this season and in both games he held his own. At this point, he’s got real technical ability, he’s got a level of physicality and tackling that you wouldn’t have predicted and he’s also quick and can find a pass. He’s very raw but I don’t think anyone would be critical if he won a call up last month or in June.
Tier 3:
Conor Coventry - already turned 25, you’d expect him to be much further along than he is. Decent chance he’ll be a championship midfielder next season and has to prove it at that level and kick on from there. has been called up in the past without being capped.
Chris Forrester - the ship has long sailed but we’ve had worse players playing for us and he was absolutely instrumental in Pat’s ridiculous run in Europe and nearly to a title. Had some awful things not happened to him off the pitch, I think he’d probably have as many caps as someone like Enda Stevens or Conor Hourihane ended up getting.
Baba Adeeko - has shown glimpses for Wigan that he could become very good. I remember the game against United. He’s got technical ability and a spark about him but needs to grow a lot as a footballer and move up a division before being considered.
Tyler Goodrham - if we knew for sure he was committed, I’d probably bump him up to T2. Looked very good at League 1, he’s had a tougher time going up a division and probably struggled playing in one of the weaker sides in the league. Still he’s got a bit about him, so you wouldn't forget about him completely.
Tier 4:
Gavin Kilkenny - absolutely slid down the leagues going from Prem to championship to L1 to L2 year on year - probably due to a lack of physicality or really athletic attributes. Could maybe resurrect his career in Europe.
Dylan Watts - a standout for Rovers in their European run, he probably deserves a name check at least
Conor Noß - ability wise, he has something about him. Lost another season to injury. Probably needs a really good season of regular football next season and a transfer back to Germany off it. You’d think it’s very unlikely to come together for him at this stage.
Danno Mandriou - ability wise, he’s good enough to play Championship level. Don’t think I’ve ever seen a purer striker of the ball, maybe Steven Reid back in the day. If you’ve ever seen Danno ping balls 60 yards in the warm up, it’s a thing of beauty. Suspect it’s stuff off the field and a desire to be back home that’s led to him playing for Shamrock Rovers rather than Blackburn Rovers at this stage in his career.
Zak Gilsenen - another guy not dissimilar to Noß in ability, just had a bit about him, always a long shot to be able to put it together but you wouldn’t have ruled it out. Unfortunately another awful injury has made it even more unlikely.