3 tier league

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15/10/2019, 1:24 PM
Real ale Madrid

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It won't though. Citation - all the other times we've tried this. The harm in doing it again is that it takes focus away from the real issues.
.

You can't be 100% sure it won't no more than I can be certain it will. Also this particular change is a lot more fundamental than previous top / bottom splits. The real issue of investment and TV money can, nay should, go hand in hand with a revamp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It is a massive stumbling block, I agree. But nowhere else in Europe as far as I'm aware has this daft fixation on county leagues. Limerick has two leagues FFS! The top clubs in Limerick, Tipp and Kilkenny shouldn't be given an option about entering a revamped MSL (for all Munster clubs). They can decline promotion to the Premier if they want, but the entire non-league structure - of lots of big fish in small ponds - is holding the game back by restricting proper competition (because a proper Munster league would be way stronger) and not encouraging clubs to take a step up to senior level.

Well, what you are talking about there is ripping up the fabric of club soccer in the country, not neccesarily a bad thing. Maybe you are right overall but the bigger clubs in Cork and Dublin will dominate eventually and instead of clubs playing in MSL 2 or 3 - they will end up just drifting back to local leagues over a period of time. Id rather give the winners of all the leagues a chance to play for a place in the league if anyone wanted it. Drifting off topic a touch now.
15/10/2019, 1:29 PM
NeverFeltBetter

I'd love to see an FAI with enough balls to take it to the Junior sides regards radical restructure, but that seems as likely as an AIL.
15/10/2019, 1:43 PM
pineapple stu

I agree. But the problem is that all this nonsense about "maybe 12 teams will work this time" actually stymies discussion on the real issues we should be having. People get tunnel vision on why 7.5 teams with a top one-third split is the way forward, and it's not. None of it is. But the row over it allows the real issues to go ignored. Which suits the suits just fine. All while the national team continues to decline because there's no investment or structure at senior level
15/10/2019, 1:47 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

You can't be 100% sure it won't no more than I can be certain it will.

True. But the onus is on the person making the suggestion for change to show how it will work where it didn't work before. Absent such an argument, the status quo is the best option.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Also this particular change is a lot more fundamental than previous top / bottom splits.

It.

Doesn't.

Matter.

A fundamental reshuffle of the same 20 teams is like a right-wing snowflake*. It may be true relatively speaking, but once you zoom out and look at the overall picture, the difference is so small as to be immaterial.

* - better simile welcomed here! :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

the bigger clubs in Cork and Dublin will dominate eventually and instead of clubs playing in MSL 2 or 3 - they will end up just drifting back to local leagues over a period of time.

No they won't, because you get rid of the Kerry District League and the Roscommon and County and whatever other 19th century relics we have. MSL second tier can be regionalised further if needs be, but overall it should be a fluid pyramid.
15/10/2019, 1:54 PM
Mr A

For what it's worth, Lucid provided a fair bit of detail when presenting to clubs at the FAI and had a lot of work done working out what might be possible and talking to TV companies etc. He had more to do, but it wasn't just the usual "let's give this a whirl and it'll work for sure" type stuff. He was vastly more impressive than the Visionary Group, who always sound good while talking but later you can't work out what it is they are proposing.
15/10/2019, 2:15 PM
Real ale Madrid

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

True. But the onus is on the person making the suggestion for change to show how it will work where it didn't work before. Absent such an argument, the status quo is the best option.

You are always doing this - you don't agree with someone so you dismiss the argument being absent / not cognent / not good enough etc etc. One thing I know for sure - the status quo aint working.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

No they won't, because you get rid of the Kerry District League and the Roscommon and County and whatever other 19th century relics we have. MSL second tier can be regionalised further if needs be, but overall it should be a fluid pyramid.

Best of luck getting rid of those leagues, if that is you're expressed stated ambition at the start, clubs just won't join the Provincial System in the first place.
15/10/2019, 2:42 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

You are always doing this - you don't agree with someone so you dismiss the argument being absent / not cognent / not good enough etc etc. One thing I know for sure - the status quo aint working.

No - the onus is on the person suggesting big changes to justify them. I have said before that a proposal such as this needs to analyse why previous restructures didn't work, what specifically this restructure aims to do, how it's going to do that, how success will be measured, etc. You haven't done any of that, therefore your solution is not workable. (Lucid seems to have made a start on it, going on what Mr A said)

That's not me making up rules. That's literally how projects should work. You don't jump into a project on the basis of "Yerrah, why not?" You have to have a logical roadmap to measureable success in mind, otherwise you're wasting your time, and we'll all be back here in 3 years' time with another reshuffle.

What does "The status quo ain't working" even mean? It's just an empty soundbite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

Best of luck getting rid of those leagues, if that is you're expressed stated ambition at the start, clubs just won't join the Provincial System in the first place.

Don't give the clubs a choice. I've said that before on this thread.

I acknowledge that it'd be very hard. Maybe next to impossible. But that doesn't take away from the fact that it's the real way to progress, not another league shuffle.
15/10/2019, 2:44 PM
marinobohs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

You are always doing this - you don't agree with someone so you dismiss the argument being absent / not cognent / not good enough etc etc. One thing I know for sure - the status quo aint working .

No point in changing because it �might make it more attractive � especially as there is no basis to believe it will improve the League, not one, apart from possibly/maybe/might get a better TV deal. The FAI are giving games away now to T.V. And getting nowhere, why in God�s name would T.V. Stations, currently turning it away actually pay for the restructured model of pretty much the same teams ? (Not pushed about Bohs V Derry but Cabo V Sligo - where do I send the Cheque 😁) Pretty much every LOI fan that has voiced an opinion has slated the idea so why would TV suddenly see it as something to invest in ?
There is damage caused in regularly changing format, especially when no Benifit accrues. LOI people are not adverse to change but there must be more than a Hail Mary chance of progress to justify it.
15/10/2019, 3:01 PM
Real ale Madrid

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

No - the onus is on the person suggesting big changes to justify them. I have said before that a proposal such as this needs to analyse why previous restructures didn't work, what specifically this restructure aims to do, how it's going to do that, how success will be measured, etc. You haven't done any of that, therefore your solution is not workable. (Lucid seems to have made a start on it, going on what Mr A said)

That's not me making up rules. That's literally how projects should work. You don't jump into a project on the basis of "Yerrah, why not?" You have to have a logical roadmap to measureable success in mind, otherwise you're wasting your time, and we'll all be back here in 3 years' time with another reshuffle.

For the love of God - - I'm literally trying to chew the fat here and you want 10 A4 pages of back up. as I've already said - I'll be going to games no matter what.
I've made an admittedly loose argument on the whole thing - I've repeatedly stated that any reshuffle should be in conjunction with a potential TV deal and some proper investment and I think that this is a more fundamental reshuffle than what has gone on in the past which is why it may ( not will ) be different this time. . It is a reality in 17 other medium to small leagues in Europe presently - but I'll be sure if I've ever an opinion on the topic in the future to research each one before and after 'splitting' to determine the size of TV contracts, sponsorship , Attendances and player quality before and after the ‘split’ – (although I’m guessing as these type of splits have been running for at least 5 or 6 years in countries like Poland and Belgium that its working for some). Otherwise I’ll dismiss it out of hand.
15/10/2019, 3:08 PM
Real ale Madrid

Quote:

Originally Posted by marinobohs

There is damage caused in regularly changing format,

I think there is a difference with what Lucid is doing as opposed to changing the amount of teams from 10 to 12. This type of split incorporating First Division clubs has never been done here - its more radical than normal. It may or may not be a good thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by marinobohs

There is damage caused in regularly changing format, especially when no Benifit accrues. LOI people are not adverse to change but there must be more than a Hail Mary chance of progress to justify it.

No empty soundbites allowed marinobohs.

I must say my enthusiasm for the league takes a hit on here at times.
15/10/2019, 3:19 PM
Real ale Madrid

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Don't give the clubs a choice. I've said that before on this thread.

A proposal such as this needs to analyse why previous attempts at amalgamation didn't work what specifically this amalgamation aims to do, how it's going to do that, how success will be measured, etc. You haven't done any of that, therefore your solution is not workable. That's not me making up rules. That's literally how projects should work. You don't jump into a project on the basis of "We will force them to comply" You have to have a logical roadmap to measureable success in mind, otherwise you're wasting your time, and we'll all be back here in 3 years' time with either less clubs or clubs back with thier local leagues anyway and we will have to start again. (This is a joke btw in case its not obvious)
15/10/2019, 3:33 PM
pineapple stu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

For the love of God - - I'm literally trying to chew the fat here and you want 10 A4 pages of back up.

I don't want 10 A4 pages of back-up. I want any back-up. Because otherwise, there's no reason to go with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

I think that this is a more fundamental reshuffle than what has gone on in the past which is why it may ( not will ) be different this time.

It's not more fundamental though. The AIL isn't workable. The top 4/bottom 4 split has huge holes in it. It's nonsense.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

A proposal such as this needs to analyse why previous attempts at amalgamation didn't work what specifically this amalgamation aims to do, how it's going to do that, how success will be measured, etc. You haven't done any of that, therefore your solution is not workable. That's not me making up rules. That's literally how projects should work. You don't jump into a project on the basis of "We will force them to comply" You have to have a logical roadmap to measureable success in mind, otherwise you're wasting your time, and we'll all be back here in 3 years' time with either less clubs or clubs back with thier local leagues anyway and we will have to start again. (This is a joke btw in case its not obvious)

I think you're getting stupidly narky here, just because your suggestion has been challenged as having no backup.

I've already outlined what an amalgamation of local leagues would do in terms of increasing the quality at that level (too many big fish/small pools in Ireland) and providing a proper pathway for ambitious non-league teams to reach the LoI proper (without having to pull out of their own league entirely, and then rejoin at the bottom again if the LoI failed, as I think Tralee did). I've outlined why the First Division is a failure (and a second tier is a UEFA requirement). That's also the measure of success - that new clubs join the LoI, that non-league gets stronger as teams play better opposition, that there's a way to relegate the dross at the bottom of the First Division and strengthen the senior set-up, and so forth.

So I get that it's a joke - but you're still not actually seeing the strategic (i.e. non shuffling) points that need to be made here.
15/10/2019, 3:40 PM
Real ale Madrid

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

but you're still not actually seeing the strategic (i.e. non shuffling) points that need to be made here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

I've repeatedly stated that any reshuffle should be in conjunction with a potential TV deal and some proper investment

Just one more thing.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I think you're getting stupidly narky here, just because your suggestion has been challenged as having no backup.

In your opinion. I'm happy with the points i've made - I might be wrong but that won't be a first. Just because you don't agree with the points i've made then you think they don't exist. Its your modus operandi on here to be fair. You are selectively quoting me as well to try and further your arguement. Anyway better stop now and just agree that I'm wrong!
15/10/2019, 3:57 PM
pineapple stu

I'm not selectively quoting you, and it's not my "modus operandi" - others on here have disagreed with you as well. In fact, pretty much nobody has agreed with you.

You've shown no reason why a reshuffle needs to happen. Saying it should happen with a TV deal/new sponsorship is all well and good - but why not have the TV deal/new sponsorship and leave the format as is?

You've said the format isn't working - but what does that mean?

You can't take the hump just because someone challenges another random reshuffle.
15/10/2019, 5:29 PM
El-Pietro

I'm with Stu on this one. We shouldn't change just to change. We've done that over and over and it gets us nowhere. If we think the current structure isn't working fine, but lets do the work to understand what the problems are, figure out what might work and set targets for what "working" means and then measure that over time.

If we just change for the sake of changing without understanding what we are aiming for we'll be back in the same situation having the same conversation three years from now. Lets stick with what we have until we have a solid plan.
15/10/2019, 10:33 PM
Nesta99

I think the worst thing possible is to change a league format without some current measure on how things are and to be able to measure any subsequent meaningful change's succes or failings. It's arguable that things staying as they are if finances were rejigged rather than a league format is the way to go. Things dont have to all happen at once either. Maybe it is at non-league level initial reform should happen with a view to adjusting senior formats in x year when the rest of the structures are ready for some sort of improved integration/route to the senior game. The introduction of the national underage leagues have already changed the landscape with large underage clubs seeing the senior game differently. The one thing that will only add to the desire to get involved with any senior structure is if it is a financial improvement rather than a burden for current or new clubs. Everything else is simply window dressing. Imo summer football worked but in a scattergun way where one change hit the mark. Nothing new or profound in this of course, just that any change management needs to show a quantifiable rationale for change in the first place and none of us have confidence in this being done at all.
16/10/2019, 9:05 AM
sbgawa

Getting the amateur leagues to toe the line needs a strong FAI which we don't have ...at least for now
The switch back to winter soccer by the DDSL is the football equivalent of the German offensive in the Ardennes in 1944.
The Nazi's (DDSL) have thrown the kitchen sink at the FAI National Leagues while the FAI were distracted with all the Delaney crap in a last ditch attempt to keep their influence and stave off defeat.
Until the FAI is strong enough to put the blazers that run these leagues in their place nothing will change.
Money talks , when the FAI is rebooted they can start to giove money to leagues who support the FAI agenda, not as previously to those that support the CEO
16/10/2019, 9:13 AM
marinobohs

Quote:

Originally Posted by Real ale Madrid

I think there is a difference with what Lucid is doing as opposed to changing the amount of teams from 10 to 12. This type of split incorporating First Division clubs has never been done here - its more radical than normal. It may or may not be a good thing.

No empty soundbites allowed marinobohs.

I must say my enthusiasm for the league takes a hit on here at times.

No empty soundbites ? you have failed to show ONE shred of progress this will bring except 'current system isn't working'.By all means outline the benefits that will come out of it and we can discuss them but it takes more than an 'admittedly loose argument' (which translates as pretty much zilch).We all want to see our league improve but illogical half arsed proposals that don't have any support among the fans is NOT the way forward.

- again, why would the proposed new format be any more attractive to TV ?
-why would it be more attractive to potential investors ?
- how would it encourage more fans to games ?
- how is it better for players ?

They are a few points I've considered, maybe 'empty soundbites' but slightly deeper than your 'admittedly loose argument'.
16/10/2019, 9:30 AM
sbgawa

Quote:

Originally Posted by marinobohs

- again, why would the proposed new format be any more attractive to TV ?
-why would it be more attractive to potential investors ?
- how would it encourage more fans to games ?
- how is it better for players ?

.

TV like more regular "big matches" Super Sunday etc etc and a top six playing off against each other for the league and euro places could offer more meaningful matches and less walkovers.
An 8 team middle section with top 4 promoted and bottom 4 going down is an extended promotion / relegation play off and this particular section could easily see crowds increase as everyone scraps for positions.
the bottom section is a dead rubber but the bottom 6 teams in the first division have crowds so low that they would have a negligible impact on overall attendances.

Is this the solution to the main problems in the league 100% no .....but of the rejigs put forward it has as much merit and probably more than most.
No one could argue that the current scenerio is good for players or clubs , repeated Friday/Monday/Friday fixtures, midweek games that attract small crowds, close season of 6 months for the first division......the list go's on.
In the absence of the real problems being addressed and i can't see much hope of that anytime soon , worth considering other things.
16/10/2019, 9:30 AM
Real ale Madrid

Quote:

Originally Posted by marinobohs

No empty soundbites ? .

That was just a joke MB - referencing P Stu giving out to me for saying the league is not working!

I'm actually not even sure I disagree with any of what anyone was saying. My original point was that perhaps that a split may not be a such bad thing. I like the idea of it - perhaps not rationally but I'm off now over the weekend to look at leagues that do it and have pursued with it and see if I can come up with anything!

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