new pope

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Originally Posted by Gerrit

I have a huge problem with people preaching against something completely normal as homosexuality. This was, amongst the other few things I named, the problem I had with John Paul II and this was also why I hoped in vein to see a more progressive pope in control this time.

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Gerrit - I abhorr the Catholic church's attitude on homosexuality (as well as similar views amongst many other churches/faiths), but get over it ! It wasn't just JP2 who pushed that line - sadly the overwhelming majority of the Catholic church at all levels is against homosexuality. JP2 was not to blame - it's a fundamnetal tenant of almost all Christian faiths/sects. Just look at the schisms within the Anglican church at the moment on this issue for proof.

A more progressive Pope was hardly going to pop out onto the balcony of St Peter's dressed like Elton John on a Hen-night and suddenly declare homosexuality as being next to Godliness. It's not something a Pope can single-handely do, and any that think they could wouldn't get within a square mile of the Holy See.

I'm no arch-defender of the Catholic church, but why, oh why, oh WHY has the entire anti-Catholic world bought into the idea that the church is solely or to a large extent responsible for the spread of Aids in Africa ?? It's ballax. Where's the evidence to support this ?

I'll give you some to argue the opposite. Firstly - as has been well stated before - if someone is so rigid in their Catholic faith as to doggedly follow the church's views on contraception then they should also likewise be following its views on abstinence and the lack of sex outside of marriage. To claim that the church has such a stranglehold upon people that they buy into one but not the other is just crazy.

Secondly, it's a fact that cultural reasons are a greater prohibitor towards condom use in Africa than the preachings of a single Christian church. Two key isses here : a) it is well noted that there is a general cultural antagonism towards condom use amongst males in African society in general. This is a cultural issue - not a religious one. b) - amongst certain widespread animist sects within Africa it is believed that if an AIDS victim has sex with a virgin, they are actually cured of the disease (it's the same belief that lies behind Muti killings - i.e. that you can absorb someone else's purity for yourself). In reality, these 2 factors (in particular, cultural antipathy towards condoms) have to-date had a greater impact upon the spread of AIDS than the teachings of the Catholic church. In certain specific cases, such as Rwanda, other issues have also had a greater impact than the church on the spread of AIDS - such as the widespread use of systematic rape as a method of oppression/torture during the Hutu/Tutsi's civil war/genocide.

Also - if you look at the 10 nations in the World with the highest AIDS infection rates (all in Africa) none of them are majority Catholic nations, and the ones with by far the highest infection rates (Zimbabwe and Botswana) have a miniscule Catholic proportion, as indeed does the country with the highest real number of AIDS sufferers in the world (South Africa) :

COUNTRY---INFECTION RATE----% OF CATHOLICS IN POPULATION
Zimbabwe------25.8 %--------------------------7.7 %
Botswana------25.0 %--------------------------4.9 %
Zambia---------19.0 %------------------------26.4 %
Malawi---------15.0 %------------------------19.6 %
Mozambique---- 14.2 %------------------------22.2 %
South Africa-----13.0 %-------------------------6.4 %
Rwanda----------12.7 %------------------------47.8 %
Kenya------------11.6 %------------------------23.3 %
Cen. African Rep--10.8 %------------------------23.0 %
Djibouti-----------10.3 %--------------------------1.3 %

Either every single Catholic alive in the above nations is HIV+ and working flat-out to spread it throughout the rest of the continent in the name of Rome, or the source of the problem is much, much more complex than one than can simply be attributed to Catholic teachings on contraception.

Whilst the Catholic Church/Pope's stance on condoms certainly won't be helping, the above figures show that it is ludicrously sloppy anti-Catholic rhetoric/journalism to blame the church for the spread of a disease that has much deeper cultural causes than the teachings of any single church could ever hope to compete with.

So can everyone PLEASE give it a rest with the bullsh!t that the church and/or the Pope is responsible to any significant degree for the spread of AIDS in Africa...

Don't see this pope being any better or worse than JPII tbh. No different to the last pope if he's right wing and conservative. More worrying would be his track record on theologians who go against his views.

The Bible is all about interpretation - The Anglican Church is willing to accept women priests, married priests, and is 50-50 on accepting Gay priests. Working off the same bible, gospel etc. Not too much difference, witnessed by the (Married) Anglican Priests who jumped ship to the Catholic Church and are now practising Catholic Priests with no problems.

The Nazi stuff is a bit of a red herring tbh, as as has been said, everyone had to join the Nazi Youth. It was on the radio this morning that his father had opposed the Nazi's, and the family had to move many times as things got too "hot".

On the Churches record on Aids/HIV. The missionaries do a hell of a lot of good work in Africa. IMO a lot of that is undone by their failure to support the use of condoms. They could be helping to change the culture of the male population through preaching/ teaching about both abstinence and contraception. The fact they don't leaves them culpable imo.

Any more off-topic garbage in this thread will result in bannings.

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Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Either every single Catholic alive in the above nations is HIV+ and working flat-out to spread it throughout the rest of the continent in the name of Rome, or the source of the problem is much, much more complex than one than can simply be attributed to Catholic teachings on contraception.

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Some studies have cited poor medical practises as a key contributor to the problem. People being given transfusions of infected blood, infected utensils being used in surgery etc.

BTW, I don't think it's asking too much that people do a little basic research before posting on Foot.ie. There's far too much idle speculation goes on here. For example, if people had spent less than a minute scanning the Wikpedia article about Ratzinger, the whole "Hitler Youth" discussion would never have happened. (Joining Hitler Youth was mandatory at the time.)

adam

Ratzinger is an anti-homosexuality, anti-abortion far right man who spent two years serving in an anti aircraft battery and digging anti tank trenches for the Nazis on the western front. I also dont buy the desertion arguement as he deserted in May 1945 when the third reich was crumbling and would have been by no means on his own taking some big moral stand (more likely scared sh1tless of being captured by the Red Army). Although joining Hitler Youth was compulsory at the time you will find that more morally courageous objectors refused and went to Dachau rather than support pure evil

Pope Benedict XVI has begun his first full day in office with a mass in the Sistine Chapel attended by the cardinals who elected him.He told them he felt a sense of inadequacy after being chosen to lead the world's 1.1 billion Catholics.

But he was helped by the belief his predecessor John Paul II was guiding him at the start of his papacy.

"I seem to feel (John Paul II's) strong hand holding mine," he said

"I seem to see his smiling eyes and hear him speaking to me at this moment, saying: 'Don't be afraid'."

He continued: "On one hand I have a sense of inadequacy and human turmoil at the responsibility entrusted to me.

"On the other hand, I feel living in me a deep gratitude to God who does not abandon his flock but guides them always."

At 78, Joseph Ratzinger is the oldest man to be elected Pope for three centuries, and the first German for a thousand years.

The hardline conservative - dubbed God's rottweiler - was elected just 25 hours after the conclave of 115 cardinals began.

He was greeted like a pop star when unveiled to around 100,000 pilgrims in St Peter's Square.

Pope Benedict - the 265th Pontiff - is expected to continue along similar lines to John Paul.

He is firmly opposed to contraception, the ordination of women priests and has described homosexuality as a "moral evil".

His election dismayed liberals within the Church hoping for a more progressive approach but it received a warm international welcome.

President Bush said the new Pope was "a man of great wisdom and knowledge".

In his native Germany, Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder called him a worthy successor to John Paul II.

He added: "That the new Pope comes from Germany, that is a great honour for our whole country."
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The election of Joseph Ratzinger has delighted Roman Catholic traditionalists - but liberals are dismayed.Benedict XVI takes a conservative views on issues such as contraception.He has made it clear in recent interviews that he will block debate on issues such as women priests, abortion and homosexuality.
Some Catholics fear the 78-year-old will divide his huge, worldwide flock.
Bernd Goehring, of the German ecumenical group Kirche von Untern, said: "We consider the election of Ratzinger as a catastrophe.
"It is very disappointing, even if it was predictable. We can expect no reform from him in the coming years."But friends and colleagues say the world is yet to see the warmer side of a man dubbed "the Panzer cardinal" and "Gods Rottweiler" in the Italian press.Cardinal Edward Egan of New York said: "You have to be slow to make a judgment. This is a really a wonderful, calm, thoughtful human being."Here are some of the things the 265th Pope has said:

:: On celibacy - "I bear witness to Jesus Christ, to the gospel, not only with words, but with this specific mode of existence, and I place my life in this form at his disposal".

:: On women's ordination - "The fact that the Church is convinced of not having the right to confer priestly ordination on women is now considered by some irreconcilable with the European Constitution".

:: On sex abuse scandals - "I am convinced that the constant pressure in the press of the sins of Catholic Priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign, especially as the percentage of these offences among priests is is not higher than in other categories, and perhaps it is even lower..."

:: On homosexuality - Although the particular inclination of the homosexual is not a sin, it is more or less a strong tendency ordered to an intrinsic moral evil, and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder".

Got both from articles from www.sky.com/skynews

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:: On sex abuse scandals - "I am convinced that the constant pressure in the press of the sins of Catholic Priests, especially in the United States, is a planned campaign, especially as the percentage of these offences among priests is is not higher than in other categories, and perhaps it is even lower..."

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What can you say to a comment like that. Is he trying to say its not so bad cos other people doing it too. Most of the media pressure on the RCC on sex abuse issues was because the role of priests in the community & what amounted to cover ups in the Church - would be the same for any other profession.

I don't see what difference one Pope makes over another even for deicated Catholics. How does he affect their lives?

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Originally Posted by Lim till i die

Although joining Hitler Youth was compulsory at the time you will find that more morally courageous objectors refused and went to Dachau rather than support pure evil

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Its easy to take the moral high ground when there are two generations of history between you and the events in question. While the bravery of those who stood up to the Nazis and paid with their lives is without question it doesn't follow that those who did not were evil in themselves. The "It only takes good men to do nothing for evil to triumph..." lines and the like are easy to say when you are in no danger.

If you want to judge the man there is plenty of material from his adult life and his role in the church - the childhood Nazi stuff is just cheap, lazy journalism.

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Originally Posted by Jim Smith

Its easy to take the moral high ground when there are two generations of history between you and the events in question. .

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In fairness I wasn't taking the high moral ground personally but you would think a man deemed great enough to be gods representative on earth would have had a lash at it.

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Originally Posted by dortie

So in this democratic world of free speech can others not have a differing opinion to you, the fact is many people dont agree with homosexuality just like many do....i for one dont and am not afraid to say it. And i couldnt give a feck if i get labelled homophobic.

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People are entitled to have whatever opinion they want. IMO what two consenting adults do in private is their business, not anyone else's, and anyone who goes around worrying about it or preaching about it has either got issues or has a fundamental problem with the rights of others.

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Originally Posted by Éanna

anyone who goes around worrying about it or preaching about it has either got issues or has a fundamental problem with the rights of others.

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The type of people with 'issues' is debatable, all depends if you believe men were designed for men, somehow i dont think so.

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Originally Posted by dortie

all depends if you believe men were designed for men, somehow i dont think so.

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It doesn't though- thats my point. I honestly couldn't care less. What people do, and who they do it with is their own busines, once its consensual. And I can't understand why people are in any way interested in other people's business- its just plain nosiness dressed up as morality.

Ratzinger is a homophobic bigot. Anybody who labels homosexuality as evil is ignorant. Plain and simple. It's a genetic thing, people have no control over it, in fact if there is a God then the whole thing is his fault because even if you do have a problem with homosexuality it's basically a case of some flawed products coming off the assembly line.

The only positive thing about this appointment is that he's old and will probably die in the comparatively near future and the Catholic church will have the chance to make a truly brave appointment next time out.

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Originally Posted by sadloserkid

Ratzinger is a homophobic bigot. Anybody who labels homosexuality as evil is ignorant. Plain and simple. It's a genetic thing, people have no control over it, in fact if there is a God then the whole thing is his fault because even if you do have a problem with homosexuality it's basically a case of some flawed products coming off the assembly line.

The only positive thing about this appointment is that he's old and will probably die in the comparatively near future and the Catholic church will have the chance to make a truly brave appointment next time out.

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I must be ignorant then. Ignorant in your eyes anyway. Dont bother me though.

Fact is, the matter what marxists, atheists or church of England begrudgers say the church will not fudge on issues such as homosexuality, abortion or contraception, so really i wouldnt build your hopes up of the church diluting its doctrine to suit such parties (with a liberal pope- whatever the feck that means). The Pope does not have such powers as an individual anyway.

sadloserkid here is Ratzinger/Benny16's view on homosexuality:

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Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered to an intrinsic moral evil, and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder...

It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs.

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Letter to the Bishops, 1986, quoted in National Catholic Reporter

And on Gay Marriage:

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Above all, we must have great respect for these people who also suffer and who want to find their own way of correct living. On the other hand, to create a legal form of a kind of homosexual marriage, in reality, does not help these people.

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Interview with Italian newspaper La Repubblica, 2004

Intrinsic moral evil? A load of bullsh1t in my opinion (and I'll be the first to admit that it's just my opinion).

I've always liked you Dortie and that hasn't changed much with anything that you've said in this thread.

But I do think homophobia is massively ignorant and I make no more apology for that than you do for being homophobic.

Each to their own and all but I wouldn't pull Ratzinger out of a fire because I honestly think that the world would be a better place without him. Happily it's an unlikely scenario.

I won't start on the catholic church though because I'd like for us to stay friends. ;)

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It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church's pastors wherever it occurs.

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Is that not a condemnation of HOMOPHOBIA?

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Originally Posted by dancinpants

Is that not a condemnation of HOMOPHOBIA?

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Dortie's in trouble so! :p