N. Ireland Support last night

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Originally Posted by lopez

However no one has said that they are NOT also supporters of the Republic. According to one website of theirs they follow Finn Harps along with Rangers - not Linfield or Glentoran - and I presume Belfast is easier to get to aswell as more welcoming for them without the Celtic tops. Also, depsite what Davros suggests, most Irish people have or would support the North if the sectarianism of their support was removed. This, despite efforts, has not been achieved, because fans are still walking in with scarves depicting the Dutch homosexual on his horse, while the flag of the indigenous community, which would have once got you a night's stay courtesy of the RUC, would still land you with a slap if you brought that it.

Would you object to Protestants from East Donegal carrying the Fitzgerald saltire (aka the St Patrick's Cross) to an Ireland game if they were fully behind the team? I wouldn't. I would have thought that those 'Ivory Coast flags' that Lux mentions would be a problem at Windsor Park if they were used to support the opposition.

No doubt we'll get some old drivel about 'a foreign flag', blah, blah, blah, 'articles 2 & 3', blah, blah, blah, 'can't wear my glens shirt in Dublin', despite this argument being a fallacy with the number of French tricolours being used amongst the home support with the IFA crest in the middle. And I thought they played in Green. :confused:

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Absolutely no problem with the St. Patricks Cross. St Pats fans fly it too or at least they used too.

If those guys from East Donegal feel ethnic Northern Irish or whatever then fine. I would be concerned if they felt they could not follow the RoI because it was becoming an extension of Celtic at the national stage.

Obviously they would support Finn Harps in East Donegal - they are the local team and Harps always have signed players of all creeds and none as have all the LoI clubs at all times.

Ive been away for a bit ..... but 'big up' to the lads from Donegal ;) ... and, Lopez ... less of the sixth form rhetoric ... happy to be Irish and British.

U okay with that, dude?

Morning Dav- ain't ye a plane to catch?

If you have time, do explain why Lux can't be both Irish and British, while you can plausibly claim both Irish and Indian (all this while spending yer entire life since age three in this country?)... :confused:

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Originally Posted by Lux Interior

Ive been away for a bit ..... but 'big up' to the lads from Donegal ;) ... and, Lopez ... less of the sixth form rhetoric ... happy to be Irish and British. U okay with that, dude?

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Nice to see you back, Lux. Making up for the sixth form rhetoric I suppose as the nearest I got to that place was abusing the people in it at my school. :( As for who you think you are, that's your problem. Just don't try and insult the intelligence of posters here by changing your nationality to gain points. You agreed (admitedly before I went off on a political speech) that you are a Briton from Ireland? Wy not stick with that rather than on the one hand claiming to be Irish one minute and then resorting to sly digs about the majority of the island the next.

As for the Donegal NISC, big up aswell. One previous guest from the north, the head honcho of 'ourweeminds', thought they were merely at Windosr to make 'a political not a footballing statement' and he had no respect for them.

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Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner

Morning Dav- ain't ye a plane to catch?

If you have time, do explain why Lux can't be both Irish and British, while you can plausibly claim both Irish and Indian (all this while spending yer entire life since age three in this country?)... :confused:

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Is this some sort of windup? :mad:

I would count you amongst the top five most intelligent charachters I know, let alone to have posted on this site, but you are now trying to compare someone with parents from two different countries with people from a community, the majority of whom owe their existence in Ireland to a colonial land grab, consistently eschewed the decision of the majority to any form of self determination (even it has to be said within 'the union') purely through religious bigotry, and pledges allegience to a former colonial power rather than any government elected by the people of Ireland (BTW, this doesn't include the present Dail). I mean, I don't claim to be British myself but I'd hardly claim Chez Lopez was sovereing Irish territory let alone trying to annex Kilburn, Cricklewood and Digbeth into some sort of Irish offshire Cayman islands.

Saying Irish unionists are equally Irish and British is like saying the pied noir are equally Algerian and French. My sister has a pied noir friend born in Algiers and lived there until Algerian independence. She claims to be ONLY French (I can't say I'd disagree with her), doesn't wear a hajib around her head, speaks f*ck all Arabic and generally thinks all Maghrebians have just stepped out of the dark ages. Change a few words like French for British and Algerians, Arabic and Maghrebians for Irish, and you could be talking about a large swathe of the unionist poulation of Ireland. In fact the only person who mentions her alleged 'joint nationality' is her husband, and even this is clearly only intended as a wind-up.

Perhaps you could explain why some-one Irish would want to partition their country against both the wishes of both the majority on the island and the parliament of the country they claim to be 'loyal' to?

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Originally Posted by lopez

Is this some sort of windup? :mad:

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No :)

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Saying Irish unionists are equally Irish and British is like

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...self-evident? A statement of the bleedin' obvious? If Paisley says he isn't Irish, it's easily corrected rhetoric: if you say it of me, just plain daft. I owe my Irishness ancestry to about eight generations of Irish ancestors. And I was hoping for a brief respite from our local numbskull droning on about the plantation :(

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Perhaps you could explain why some-one Irish would want to partition their country against both the wishes of both the majority on the island and the parliament of the country they claim to be 'loyal' to?

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I already have, ad nauseam, and there are plenty of books on the subject. Anyway, are you expecting me to be bound by political decisions taken 50 years before you or I were born? Thanks for the plug though. I'll buy ye a beer next time yer down at McGoverns in NW6

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Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner

...self-evident? A statement of the bleedin' obvious? If Paisley says he isn't Irish, it's easily corrected rhetoric: if you say it of me, just plain daft. I owe my Irishness ancestry to about eight generations of Irish ancestors. And I was hoping for a brief respite from our local numbskull droning on about the plantation :(

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A statement of the bleedin' obvious? Why? Because, you happened to be born there and you can count X ammount of ancestors! Personally I'm not au fait with all of your politics, but I'm sure that the nationality you consider yourself is British and that you wish the O6C to remain part of Britain -despite the wishes of the majority of your fellow countrymen and women (the Irish ones that is) - rather than be run by a 32C Irish government - constitutional, federal or confederal - or for NI's status (and the question of the football side) to be buried forever by allowing the area to ruled jointly by both London and Dublin.

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Originally Posted by Duncan Gardner

I already have, ad nauseam, and there are plenty of books on the subject. Anyway, are you expecting me to be bound by political decisions taken 50 years before you or I were born? Thanks for the plug though. I'll buy ye a beer next time yer down at McGoverns in NW6

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Thanks for the offer of a beer which is a lot more appreciated than your suggestions of books on Irish partition. (BTW: Alvin Jackson's recent offering on Home Rule is my suggestion as a must for anyone interested in this subject.)

Cheers, Duncan ... well put, as ever .... all I would say is that Irishness and Britshness are not mutually exclusive, despite the best efforts of Senor Lopez and AdieuAdair.

I'm just back from The Undertones gig ... really bursting at the seams with Irish pride, although tomorrow, I'll take my tea from a mug depicting HRH the POW. :cool:

Algerians and French .... was that the sound of a barrel being scraped by someone holding a handful of straws? :D

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Originally Posted by Lux Interior

Cheers, Duncan ... well put, as ever .... all I would say is that Irishness and Britshness are not mutually exclusive, despite the best efforts of Senor Lopez and AdieuAdair.

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Of course Irishness and Britishness are not mutually exclusive. It's just that, on the evidence of your posts, you are not in this category. As for Duncan, if 'self-evident...statement of the bleedin' obvious...easily corrected rhetoric' is what you consider the makings of a good argument then it's no wonder so many schoolkids are turning out like these lads when they have blokes like yourself as their mentors.

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Originally Posted by Lux Interior

I'm just back from The Undertones gig ... really bursting at the seams with Irish pride, although tomorrow, I'll take my tea from a mug depicting HRH the POW.

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Undertones, Irish? Shurely shome mishtake? I would have thought you would have had them down as British like Mary McAleese? What makes you say that she's British and the Undertones are Irish? Initially I came to the conclusion that the thought of some Taig b*tch from your home town making it to the same level of society as the mother of your hero has p*ssed you off big time, but as you keep reminding us with your 'some of my best friends are Catholics' line, it can't be that. I'll be interested to hear your thoughts if you can spare one. :rolleyes:

BTW, nice attempt at a wind up with the POW cup, but you've been watching too much Jimmy Cricket. Despite coming from a part of the world where there is too much worship of homosexual royals, I can't see someone of your age being seen dead with a mug depicting this Gay prince. In fact I can't see there being a demand for the mass production of cups in the first place, such is his current unpopularity.

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Originally Posted by Lux Interior

Algerians and French .... was that the sound of a barrel being scraped by someone holding a handful of straws?

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Apologies Lux but that bit was directed at the clever one out of you and Duncan. I never in my dreams expected you to know what Algeria was let alone what the 'pied noir' were. :D

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Originally Posted by lopez

Apologies Lux but that bit was directed at the clever one out of you and Duncan. I never in my dreams expected you to know what Algeria was let alone what the 'pied noir' were. :D

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Amigo, you are suckin 'rhetoric' diesel tonite! :rolleyes:

Lads - if you are going to debate the premise that you can be both British and Irish then you both may want to define what you mean by British and by Irish. I have a feeling that your definitions of Irishness would be poles apart for starters.

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Originally Posted by 1MickCollins

Lads - if you are going to debate the premise that you can be both British and Irish then you both may want to define what you mean by British and by Irish. I have a feeling that your definitions of Irishness would be poles apart for starters.

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This isn't a debate about what defines 'Irishness' because there is - obviously - no such set package like wearing Aran sweaters, doing the rosary 5 times a day, drinking Guinness and listening to Patsy Spillane. If you are going to claim to be of a certain nation, the one requirement that most people ask of is not to betray that nation to another by supporting either the subordination, or when that becomes impossible, the partial annexation, of that nation by a third party against the wishes of the majority.

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Originally Posted by lopez

This isn't a debate about what defines 'Irishness' because there is - obviously - no such set package like wearing Aran sweaters, doing the rosary 5 times a day, drinking Guinness and listening to Patsy Spillane. If you are going to claim to be of a certain nation, the one requirement that most people ask of is not to betray that nation to another by supporting either the subordination, or when that becomes impossible, the partial annexation, of that nation by a third party against the wishes of the majority.

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I don't want to go into this in detail, but when countries lilke Britain go
about their empire building and their empire crumbles they leave a lot
of shyte behind them.
Northern Ireland is such a state.

It is bugger all use to GB but they are kind of stuck with it one
way or another.

Iraq is a similar pile of shyte, its not a natural country, hence the
chaos when you try to make it one.

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Originally Posted by lopez

If you are going to claim to be of a certain nation, the one requirement that most people ask of is not to betray that nation to another by supporting either the subordination, or when that becomes impossible, the partial annexation, of that nation by a third party against the wishes of the majority.

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Is that a dig at Michael Collins :D ? I don't recall any part of this island being annexed in the last 300 hundred years. The Unionist majority agreed to secession. Sinn Fein entered into negiotataions and accepted a 26 county state. They spent much more time quibbling about the oath of allegiance than about the new NI state, that was easily punted to the Boundary Commission. By your definition the majority ( slim in terms of Dail votes but much greater among the people ) of Irish nationalists in the early '20s weren't Irish at all.

What I think you mean is that you can have allegiance to one nation only and
I think it is fair to say the oath of allegiance had more to do with the civil war than the NI state and partition - I think it is obvious that any Irishman who took this oath did so in bad faith;

'I ... do solemnly swear true faith and allegiance to the Constitution of the Irish Free State as by law established, and that I will be faithful to H.M. King George V, his heirs and successors by law in virtue of the common citizenship of Ireland with Great Britain and her adherence to and membership of the group of nations forming the British Commonwealth of nations.'



If you look it in those terms of allegiance you cannot be both British and Irish as you cannot have true allegiance to to two different soverign nations. On the other hand if your definition of Irishness is simply 'I was born here' then you could of course be both British and Irish is a shallow or factual sense but not in a real sense.

For instance being British to a Welshman might be something like the equivalent of being a Eurpoean to an Irishman. Ireland first then Europe. Wales first then Britain. I don't know if Duncan would say Ireland first then Britain? That maybe is the question, how much allegiance does Duncan have to the right of the majority of this island to self determination?

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Originally Posted by lopez

This isn't a debate about what defines 'Irishness' because there is - obviously - no such set package like wearing Aran sweaters, doing the rosary 5 times a day, drinking Guinness and listening to Patsy Spillane.

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Well thats me wasted the last fifteen years of me life! :eek: :D

[QUOTE=lopez]..easily corrected rhetoric' is what you consider the makings of a good argument then it's no wonder so many schoolkids are turning out like these lads



Forget those guy's, try going out for a couple of pint's and talking some jazz with these fella's in the matching bright jersey's. ;) :rolleyes: :confused:

http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/gallery/gallery3.html

Evening chaps. Just winding down after refereeing the goal feast that was Dundee United- Rangers in the London Supporters' League earlier. Quite well-behaved really- only one booking, for persistent Ned-like fouling, yapping and threatening to burst into tears like a big baby- and even then the fouled Dundee player tried to talk me out of waving the card :)

Some nice pictures of shell-suited Glaswegians supplied by Lopez. Er, what was their point?

You may overestimate my knowledge of the Pieds Noirs. I read Albert Camus at school, and saw 'Day of the Jackal' a few times. Incidentally, I imagine Lux will remember when NI played Algeria, in the 1986 World Cup. It was a draw, can't recall if we scored or not.

My claim to be Irish is self-evident to regular readers here because, er, it's immediately obvious to everyone that, apart from growing up there like past generations of my family, and to those that have met me having a strong Irish accent, I am quite happy to admit it. I can't see any rational reason to do otherwise, unlike some of the more contorting Ulster unionists. Oh, and because that argument's simple and brief doesn't lessen its validity, does it?

Mick: define 'definition' :) As for the principle of self-determination, I hold to it: but I recognise that, unless you fragment a society into a huge number of Chinese boxes (or Cantons, like in Switzerland), there will inevitably be disaffected minorities. In Ireland they're the northern nationalists: without partition, there would've been a larger number of disaffected unionists. (This is, of course, what basically all unionists think).

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Originally Posted by sylvo

Forget those guy's, try going out for a couple of pint's and talking some jazz with these fella's in the matching bright jersey's. ;) :rolleyes: :confused:

http://www.glasgowsurvival.co.uk/gallery/gallery3.html

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Sylv, if only it were that easy, unfortunately my close studies on the mean (Argyle, Buchanan etc) Streets have revealed equal amounts if not more of these characters wearing horizontal stripes ;) :(

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Originally Posted by Pat O' Banton

Sylv, if only it were that easy, unfortunately my close studies on the mean (Argyle, Buchanan etc) Streets have revealed equal amounts if not more of these characters wearing horizontal stripes ;) :(

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Hey don't I know it, the shirt's are pretty irrelevant, the badly dyed hair to match their jersey's now that was something else.
Hey I seem to remember someone who used to complain to us lot with the line ''ooohhh this is so unfair'' who should be on this website, seeing he's got both the gear and the accent now. ;)

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Originally Posted by davros paraphrased

I agree with Ian Paisley as well as David Ervine

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Really? Who will the confused Irish/ Indian/ Englishman give his support to next? The Orange Order? Generalissimo Franco? Baroness Thatcher? I think we should be told!