Armenia v Russia

Andy "Stick it down there Charlotte" Gray has an article in the star which i came across at the wkd. He was making similar points to the blog reference above. Ireland have lost 2 competitive games under Trap, came within a whisker of qualifying last campaign and are joint top halfway through this one. Also discussed how Ireland dont have the players to play the free flowing attractive football withouth at least getting very exposed at the back. He also referenced Andy Reid, how many were calling for him like the messiah not that long ago but now are very silent, Andy cant even make the XI of his new club.

Finally, he pointed to the much quoted Greek team of 2004 and how the vast majority of that team were playing CL football with either of the Greek teams or abroad. At present Ireland have two.

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Originally Posted by elroy

Finally, he pointed to the much quoted Greek team of 2004 and how the vast majority of that team were playing CL football with either of the Greek teams or abroad. At present Ireland have two.

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I count three this season, although it makes little difference to your overall point.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I count three this season, although it makes little difference to your overall point.

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I have four - McGeady, Gibson, O'Shea and a second half appearance by Robbie Keane for Spurs against Werder Bremen

We don't even have Europa League regulars.

I guess the point is twofold: higher level of competition and "international" style of opposition.

The first is debatable as I think some European games (up to the last 16 / last 8) are a bit of a procession for some teams, but the second is maybe more important. In the Greek's case they probably benefitted from both though.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I have four - McGeady, Gibson, O'Shea and a second half appearance by Robbie Keane for Spurs against Werder Bremen

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Hehe, missed Robbie.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

I have four - McGeady, Gibson, O'Shea and a second half appearance by Robbie Keane for Spurs against Werder Bremen

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Barry Maguire and Cillian Sheridan both featured in the Europa League too.

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Originally Posted by AlaskaFox

Barry Maguire and Cillian Sheridan both featured in the Europa League too.

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yep, but I was only talking about appearances in the Champions League

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

yep, but I was only talking about appearances in the Champions League

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I know, but Stuttgart mentioned the EL, so thought I'd throw those in there too.

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Originally Posted by AlaskaFox

I know, but Stuttgart mentioned the EL, so thought I'd throw those in there too.

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this is the list of Irish players I have who appeared for their clubs in European competition this season, either as a starting player or a substitute, including preliminary rounds, excluding any players from the Airtricity League
UEFA Cup:
Barry Maguire
Darren Randolph
Graham Stack
Liam Miller
Anthony Stokes
Cillian Sheridan
Daryl Murphy
Richie Towell
Jon Daly
Sean Dillon
Shay Given
Stephen Ireland
Greg Cunningham
Aiden McGeady

Champions League:
Daryl Murphy
Robbie Keane
Darron Gibson
John O'Shea
Aiden McGeady

FWIW, apart from some exceptions, our players have no regular CL experience. The Greeks had plenty. I think we can accept Gray's point as presented by Elroy.

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Originally Posted by mypost

And what made 1934-1987 an Ireland tournament-free zone.

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conveniently ignoring the Icelandic Triangular Tournament of 1986. Pffffft.

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Originally Posted by geysir

FWIW, apart from some exceptions, our players have no regular CL experience. The Greeks had plenty. I think we can accept Gray's point as presented by Elroy.

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What was the decisive impact of that though? The CL group stages aren't the highest standard. The EPL is arguably stronger week in, week out. Zagorakis played for Leicester and Blokemibob (Christeas?) who scored the winner in the final was a reserve in Germany.

We can read anything into anything really. Gray makes a decent enough point.

But if you think back to that Greek side. They were regimentally drilled. If Rehhagel took 22 from here and drilled us like that over 4 years we could surprise people as well.

A slight exaggeration I know but the point stands. The were wojus but effective. The difference now though is that it seems that Traps masterplan could actually be that. A masterplan. We won't know til October but I tell ya what I would take what he's done so far over what we've put up with since the Spain game in 2002. He ha blooded a serious amount of players since he took over to the point now we are looking at having competition all over the park.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

What was the decisive impact of that though? The CL group stages aren't the highest standard. The EPL is arguably stronger week in, week out. Zagorakis played for Leicester and Blokemibob (Christeas?) who scored the winner in the final was a reserve in Germany.

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I guess the collective impact of all the factors (including CL experience) led Greece to winning the tournament. We are only looking to qualify.
Zagorakis at CM was player of the tournament and he had a good CM partner. They were 2 very experienced internationals and formed a rock solid CM defensive partnership
All goes to prove that there was nothing much wrong with the Greek team that a good CM partnership couldn't sort out.
I forget who said that, but it made sense at the time.

Stuttgartis I think his name was.

I'm just challenging (not refuting) the notion that the CL experience was a decisive factor, over and above the brilliant organisation.

If CL experience is such a big factor how come the English players that regularly play in the last 4 or last 2 of the CL don't get past the last 16 of a world cup. I guess the answer here is that no English goalie even plays in the CL, and the Upsons & Barrys of this world don't either. How many of the Dutch players feature in the latter stages of the CL? Some, but by no means most.

But how important is playing in the group stages (and typically no further) of the CL compared to, say, playing week-in / week-out in the EPL versus the Greek League? If it is important, why is it important? Exposure to different styles? It could well be that the CL factor is a red-herring.

My instinctive position is to hope that Andy Gray is wrong because I don't like him :)

I did not read AG's article but from what Elroy summarised, I gather that AG was making the point about the dearth in the quality of the players available to Ireland. He wasn't trying to explain Greece's success. He just pointed out their CL experience at the time. Means, at least the Greek players were with clubs that were of a high enough standard to get into the CL.
Afaia he was not saying that CL experience in itself was a key component with Greece's success.

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Originally Posted by geysir

I did not read AG's article but from what Elroy summarised, I gather that AG was making the point about the dearth in the quality of the players available to Ireland. He wasn't trying to explain Greece's success. He just pointed out their CL experience at the time. Means, at least the Greek players were with clubs that were of a high enough standard to get into the CL.
Afaia he was not saying that CL experience in itself was a key component with Greece's success.

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Correct, he was primarily referring to the range of options available to us. He said that there are more Irish professionals in the English league than ever before but most are now at championship level or below. Whereas in the past Liverpool, Villa, United, Arsenal etc all had a strong Irish contingent. I dont really accept this point entirely though as it is a different game now, far more 'foreign' players in the UK therefore there is bound to be less of any nationality at the top clubs.

On the Greece point, he was just referring to the fact that the Greeks are often quoted as what you can do with a limited bunch of players. Gray's simple point was that although the Greeks were limited they still had numerous CL regulars i.e. they were no mugs. Ireland by comparison has very few regulars at CL level.

True, and none of this answers my questions.

Does our lack of CL representation rule us out from being described as "no mugs"? Most of our players play for clubs who the English CL clubs find harder to play against than their early CL opponents.

Do Olympiakos and Panathanaikos (or whoever) get to the CL just because there is a route to the CL for them? Would either beat Stoke who have 4 Irish players? Does having 4 Irish at the 10th best team in England not also mean that we are no mugs?

Just because we have few CL players does not mean we are a limited bunch. The fact that we are a limited bunch does though :)

But I'm sure that if some of our players were prepared to earn less than they can in the EPL and live abroad, they too could play in the CL - at least the early part.

If CL experience was what determined quality, than Darren O'Dea would be nailed on as CB. Instead a Preston CB is ahead of him, and rightly so.

You were referring to A Gray as if he had claimed that CL experience was a decisive factor in the Greeks success.
My answer was directed to that misconception.

Re CL experience, I think a good player will benefit from playing the top clubs from other leagues in CL competition. Playing against different styles, players, pressures. How he performs in such games is one of the ways you can judge him as a player. The fact that a player is involved in the CL is not a barometer of quality by itself. CL experience doesn't make a silk purse out of .....

Re relative standards, you do remember Arsenal getting beaten in the UEFA final by a Turkish club. Arsenal also make heavy weather out of adjusting to the CL.
If Stoke were in the CL, they would get hammered in the group stages and probably get hammered by the Greek teams who have the annual CL experience. The EPL is Stoke's comfort zone.

Hey, I had had 5 pints watching Spurs v Real when I posted that :)

PO'S even dropped in for a bit.

I think the best way to interpret AG's remark is "even though the Greek players didn't play in the strongest leagues, they at least had good CL experience, so they were no mugs". I would counter by saying our players are no mugs either because most play at a high enough level.

Arsenal tend to coast through the CL group stages by the way, but get careless or over-confident at times. Arsenal v Galatasaray was in 2000!