Player eligibility row

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Originally Posted by Nedser

Yes, but you have to prove your nationality, and the standard way of doing so is with a passport. Another way would be a birth cert, but showing birth cert proving you were born in Belfast would not in itself be likey to satisfy FIFA that your nationality lies with ROI. The obvious assumption, in fact, would be that you are eligible for NI. Before the GFA, the states of Ireland* and the UK disagreed about the citizenship of people born in the 6 counties. Ireland took the view they were Irish, while the UK took the view that they were British. If anything, I think FIFA would have sided with the UK on that, as the international community generally accepts they hold sovereignty over NI. Therefore, before the GFA, I don't believe anyone born in NI would have been allowed to play for the ROI without holding an Irish passport. Now both countries agree that anyone born in the 6 counties can choose to hold either nationality or both, so now FIFA presumably would require no additional documentation other than a birth cert. The GFA is certainly not entirely irrelevant in any case.

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Nedser, I refer you to this reply I posted earlier on this issue.

"Technically speaking, under FIFA's rules players born in Northern Ireland have always been eligible to play for the Republic of Ireland. However, a "gentleman's agreement" had been reached between the FAI and IFA in 1950, whereby neither Association would select players from each others territory. This agreement became null and void when Darron Gibson received his first international cap.

The issue of nationality is a red herring. This is simply because, since partition, the Irish Government/State has automatically granted Irish citizenship, from birth, to anyone born on the island of Ireland. This nationality qualification already comes under the existing eligibility criteria established by FIFA."

It is important for everyone to become fully informed of the facts, namely the above, surrounding this whole issue to prevent any further confusion on the matter.

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Originally Posted by The Fly

The issue of nationality is a red herring. This is simply because, since partition, the Irish Government/State has automatically granted Irish citizenship, from birth, to anyone born on the island of Ireland. This nationality qualification already comes under the existing eligibility criteria established by FIFA."[/I]

It is important for everyone to become fully informed of the facts, namely the above, surrounding this whole issue to prevent any further confusion on the matter.

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I'm aware of those facts, but as I stated in my post, before the GFA, people born in the 6 counties were automatically considered Irish citziens by the Irish state, but not by the UK. As such, proving you were born in NI would not at the time have proven to FIFA that you had the appropriate nationality to play for ROI. You would have needed some other document to prove you had the appropriate nationality, and in practice, that document is normally an Irish passport. I agree that anyone born in the North was always entitled to an Irish passport though (well by "always", I mean since independence for the 26).

I'm interested in why the FAI saw fit to break the "gentleman's agreement" when they did if it had nothing to do with the GFA? Why was such an agreement even entered into and maintained? I would have assumed that the political climate and unique constitutional status of Northern Ireland created post-GFA - officially recognised and agreed upon by all states in the historical dispute over the territory - would have contributed to this willingness to renege on it. Surely it's what provided at least the moral clout to go through with it and push the issue? Possibly if the "gentleman's agreement" had been breached before then and the IFA took the issue up with FIFA, FIFA might have sided in favour of the IFA by insisting on the superiority of the application of UK nationality law over Irish nationality law within the UK? Maybe I'm totally wrong and it was mere coincidence that Gibson decided to break tradition and force the issue, but I'd always imagined that the official recognition of his Irish nationality by the state or jurisdiction in which he was born provided a sense of complete and indisputable legitimacy in declaring for Ireland.

I seem to recall that if your grandparent was born anywhere in Ireland before partition you qualified for both under the FIFA rules, I always thought that's how Alan Kernaghan played for us having turned out for the Nordie Schoolboys?

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Originally Posted by endabob1

I seem to recall that if your grandparent was born anywhere in Ireland before partition you qualified for both under the FIFA rules, I always thought that's how Alan Kernaghan played for us having turned out for the Nordie Schoolboys?

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Alan Kernaghan's situation was extremely complicated - I remember reading about it ages back. If I recall correctly, he was born in England to English-born parents, but then spent most of his childhood in NI.

At the time, another "gentleman's agreement" was in place between the 4 UK associations, so they would not utilise the grandparent rule to pick players born within other UK jurisdictions. As such, Kernaghan was never eligible for NI. I assume he qualified for ROI because his grandparent(s) were born in Ireland (island of), which at the time entitled you to an Irish passport.

AFAIK, the only qualification for schoolboy representation is where you go to school (there is a distinction between the U18 schoolboy team and the U18 national team). So Kernaghan qualified for NI schoolboys by virtue of the fact that he went to school there, in the same way Ryan Giggs played for England schoolboys, but was never eligible for the England national team.

His grandfather was Belfast born afaik, which because he was born before partition made him elligible for both NI & ROI, he chose ROI at senior level having played for NI Schoolboys. Whatever about the "gentleman's agreement" between the 4 unions it was well known that NI were in the practice of not going to 2nd generation players so Kerrnaghan wouldn't have been considered.

I thought the distinction between schools & Schoolboys only really applied to Engerland, certainly 20+ years ago there was the Republic of Ireland U15 side which was commonly called "schoolboys" but was the only national side at that age group. I think it's a historic thing in England where the underage structures were all centred around schools, yo uplkayed for your school, then your district (county) then the best players played for England Schools. With the advent of Club acadamey's this has largely become redundant.

Good interview/article on Kerrnaghan here which alludes to his Belfast Roots.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/spo...icle592152.ece

there was an article during the week on players from the North who turned out for the Republic: http://soccerrepublic.eircom.net/New...the-North.aspx

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Alan Kernaghan
Kernaghan, and his parents, were born in England but he was raised an Ulster Protestant. He had stood on the Windsor Park terrace as a child and cheered on the North to two British Championships and qualification for two World Cup finals. In fact, he was even a ballboy on one occasion when Scotland visited Belfast. Kernaghan was capped six times for the Northern Ireland under-15s but, once he revealed that neither he nor his parents were born in the country, he was told he would no longer be allowed represent the North; the ‘granny rule’ was a non-runner in Northern Ireland at the time. “The door was slammed shut,” he says. “We tried to fight it for five or six years but we had no luck. Then when the chance came to play for the Republic, I jumped at it.” He qualified for the south through his Irish grandparents, and went on to make 22 appearances in the famous green shirt. “I had no problems pulling on the Republic shirt,” he adds. “I was simply furthering my career. There was always a lingering tension on the periphery. Some Republic of Ireland fans and journalists didn't like it. I dealt with it as I deal with it now: it didn't matter to me. The galling thing was two or three weeks after I made my debut for the Republic, [Northern Ireland] changed the [eligibility] rule. Why did it take that long? Why not have done it years before? But they didn’t and in a way I was glad.” Kernaghan later went on to become a coach at Glasgow Rangers, become the first ever Republic of Ireland cap to take employment at the Ibrox club.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Parker

I'll try to explain in simple terms. Before the GFA could an Irishman born in the north play for Ireland? Answer, yes.

Shane Duffy's birthplace is what qualifies him, not his fathers.

Fifa Statute 15 refers to nationality, not passports.

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The GFA changed things with a subtle but important change. Citizenship to ni born (nibornes) became automatic with birth.
Previous to that it was not automatic, you had the right to Irish citizenship but it was not an automatic right.
People born in NI had to fill in an extra document.

FIFA when reviewing the whole thing around Gibson time, referred to the automatic nature of the citizenship on at least 2 or 3 occasions.
So yes I think the automatic citizenship had a big enough bearing on FIFA when they clarified / rewrote their rule 15.

IMO any player born in northern ireland is the same as the south. were all irish. i dont care if the IFA are annoyed about it. as far as im concerned were all irish - the one.

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Originally Posted by Duggie

IMO any player born in northern ireland is the same as the south. were all irish. i dont care if the IFA are annoyed about it. as far as im concerned were all irish - the one.

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Exactly, well said

I don't think the good friday agreement made any difference to the eligibility of players from the North representing Ireland at international level, they were always eligible.

Gerard Crossley from Belfast was playing for Ireland at youth level before the agreement was even signed, so it made no differece.

Crossley played at all underage levels for Ireland and also made it into the senior squad for a friendly against Mexico in 99.

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Paul Kee, who coached Gibson at Maiden City Soccer, a feeder club for Institute FC, and now manages the Northern Ireland under-17 team, said in December 2009: “We have to basically provide a service from which young players feel they will get something back and hopefully they will have the desire to play for Northern Ireland. It’s an issue we have to keep working at though, although if a young player feels a stronger affinity to the Republic of Ireland then that’s the way it is. Darron and his family made a choice at the time although the circumstances behind it appear to be that he had a chance to go on trial with [Manchester] United and he was then left out of an IFA team as a result. Darron and his parents had to think about his career and they took his talents to the Republic of Ireland.”

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From that article in Soccer Republic

That's the line of thinking the IFA should be taking in my opinion. Might prove more productive in the long run than the current sniping at FIFA & FAI.

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Originally Posted by dr_peepee

From that article in Soccer Republic

That's the line of thinking the IFA should be taking in my opinion. Might prove more productive in the long run than the current sniping at FIFA & FAI.

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Paul Kee is a good sensible guy. He used to run a coaching 'school' during the summer in Derry.

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Originally Posted by Predator

Paul Kee is a good sensible guy. He used to run a coaching 'school' during the summer in Derry.

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Seems to be alright...

Why d'ye have 'School' in inverted coma's though? Makes it look real sinister!!:)

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Originally Posted by dr_peepee

Seems to be alright...

Why d'ye have 'School' in inverted coma's though? Makes it look real sinister!!:)

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Ha, it was just like a Soccer School type thing. Was great for kids, but I remember it being fairly expensive. Although I could be mistaken.

Is that the same Paul Kee who was the NI goalie when we tanked them 4-0 in Windsor back in the mid-90s?

Don't think so, but I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Is that the same Paul Kee who was the NI goalie when we tanked them 4-0 in Windsor back in the mid-90s?

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No different lad. Ironically the other Paul Kee had a very giid game against Austria in the previous match, NI's last significant away win

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Originally Posted by co. down green

I don't think the good friday agreement made any difference to the eligibility of players from the North representing Ireland at international level, they were always eligible.

Gerard Crossley from Belfast was playing for Ireland at youth level before the agreement was even signed, so it made no differece.

Crossley played at all underage levels for Ireland and also made it into the senior squad for a friendly against Mexico in 99.

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I never said that players were not eligible before the GFA.

IMO the introduction of automatic citizenship into the GFA had a definite bearing on how FIFA reviewed the eligibility issue in 2007/8 after the IFA made their official protest.


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Originally Posted by co. down green

I don't think the good friday agreement made any difference to the eligibility of players from the North representing Ireland at international level, they were always eligible.

Gerard Crossley from Belfast was playing for Ireland at youth level before the agreement was even signed, so it made no differece.

Crossley played at all underage levels for Ireland and also made it into the senior squad for a friendly against Mexico in 99.

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Exactly. As far as I know the gentleman's agreement was originally disbanded at a stage when Nationlists playing for the North were being given significant stick (around the time Lennon's abuse picked up?). The game in 93 at Windsor may have had some bearing in FAI circles. Was Kerr the first underage manager to pick youngsters born in the 6 counties?

As as been said passports were available for all born on the island since independence for the 26 and prior to the GFA a passport was all FIFA required (see Luis Olivera for example, a brazillian with no belgian blood knocking us out in the 98 play off).