Comparison of Irish clubs in Europe versus Scottish clubs in Europe

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Originally Posted by A N Mouse

Anyone else confused by chuckie's use of 'we' and 'us' in this thread?

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Why should it? I support Celtic and pay my money to go through the turnstiles like everyone else and did so only last night.

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Also, the 'usually in the group stages' - playing teams like man utd - is more of an excuse for rangers' poor recent record, than explanation of the current general malaise.

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It's a mixture of both. They've drawn an awful lot of games as well, they're on a poor run though, no denying it.

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Just out of interest how many different scottish teams have qualified for the group stages of anything?

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As I already said, Celtic Rangers and Aberdeen have.

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I also noticed his claim no loi side ever reached the group stages of anything, presumably admitting no irish team had ever reached those lofty height would make his head explode.

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I'd love to see it, but until the sporting public support the league it won't be happening anytime soon. Rovers have no chance of beating Belgrade over there.

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Originally Posted by El-Pietro

I really don't understand why you are here unless you are on a wind up - you are constantly belittling the LOI.

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I'm not lying though, am I? The record is dire. I'm not blaming the league itself, I blame the idiots who sit in bar on a friday night when they could be out supporting and help fund their local club.

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

Celtic are a different case to any club on the planet from a small country in that they get a fantastic support at home (51k last night against Sion, not many in the world would get that) and they also have a huge worldwide support for a club in such a small country, which has seen them rise above the crap. Celtic had an annual turnover of £60 million in 2003, hence we had the funds to bring in decent foreign talent.

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You keep trying to tell us how unique - just like everyone else then - this glasgow team of your's are. Well is Serbia a small enough country for comparison? Because Crvena Zvezda got 54k last night, and I don't know enough about partizan but I imagine the shams can expect a sizable crowd for their trip to belgrade next week.

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

A league in a country of five million people will not get large crowds that the above get so therefore less funds than the larger countries. I can't believe I've had to explain that out. It's obvious why a five million population would hold a league back and some teams in it.

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That's all well and good, but then you come on here run our league down at every opportunity and and refuse to admit that you, and people like you, multiple that problem many times over for our own league.

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

Celtic had an annual turnover of £60 million in 2003, hence we had the funds to bring in decent foreign talent.

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Whats the turnover now? Are you saying Celtic have been getting progressively worse since 2003?

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

I'm not lying though, am I? The record is dire. I'm not blaming the league itself, I blame the idiots who sit in bar on a friday night when they could be out supporting and help fund their local club.

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I agree about the 'idiots'. Good point.
But it's not true to say Irish clubs' record is 'dire' - especially in recent years. It's not good - but it's not dire. Considering the lack of support from local fans, infrastructure, interest from the media, decent stadiums etc, Irish clubs are punching well above their weight. Scotland, with its well supported teams, (Rangers and Celtic being the obvious examples), decent grounds, infrastructure, interest from the media etc. (really, the opposite of what we have here) should be doing much better. We should be very pleased that we're only a few places behind them in the rankings. I would have fancied Rovers against Hearts if they'd played them instead of Partizan.

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Originally Posted by A N Mouse

That's all well and good, but then you come on here run our league down at every opportunity and and refuse to admit that you, and people like you, multiple that problem many times over for our own league.

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It's my league as well, I'm just honest about its failings. How do people like me make it worst? I go to every Shels game I can.

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Originally Posted by Dodge

Whats the turnover now? Are you saying Celtic have been getting progressively worse since 2003?

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Turnover was £51 million. This is due to lack of Champions League cash, which is a loss of £12 million.

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agree about the 'idiots'. Good point.
But it's not true to say Irish clubs' record is 'dire' - especially in recent years. It's not good - but it's not dire. Considering the lack of support from local fans, infrastructure, interest from the media, decent stadiums etc, Irish clubs are punching well above their weight. Scotland, with its well supported teams, (Rangers and Celtic being the obvious examples), decent grounds, infrastructure, interest from the media etc. (really, the opposite of what we have here) should be doing much better. We should be very pleased that we're only a few places behind them in the rankings. I would have fancied Rovers against Hearts if they'd played them instead of Partizan.

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I don't get this few places behind in the rankings? Scotland is 15th at the moment. It's won back its second Champions League place for next season. Ireland is nowhere near 15th in the co-efficient. Maybe I've got this wrong but the co-efficient rankings Scotland is well ahead of Ireland unfortunately.

I agree in a sense in what you say with the lack of support for the league, not sure we're punching above our weight, but we're certainly at a level you would expect when all things are considered. I wouldn't fancy Rovers against Hearts over two legs. They got a bad beating yesterday but in the previous tie hammered a Hungarian team 4-1. Rovers would never do that, they've only scored two goals in five years this year.

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

I don't get this few places behind in the rankings? Scotland is 15th at the moment. It's won back its second Champions League place for next season. Ireland is nowhere near 15th in the co-efficient. Maybe I've got this wrong but the co-efficient rankings Scotland is well ahead of Ireland unfortunately.

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When the 07/08 gets knocked off, Scotland is 28th and Ireland is 33rd.

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

I agree in a sense in what you say with the lack of support for the league, not sure we're punching above our weight, but we're certainly at a level you would expect when all things are considered. I wouldn't fancy Rovers against Hearts over two legs. They got a bad beating yesterday but in the previous tie hammered a Hungarian team 4-1. Rovers would never do that, they've only scored two goals in five years this year.

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You can not say any team would that. On another day, Hearts may win 1-0 or lose 1-0 etc. You can't base an argument on a scoreline, every game is different. Rovers would give Hearts a stern test, that is for sure.

Why does anybody even give a **** how we compare to any club or league from a different country? (Apart from the coefficient which is important)

They would give them a test but Hearts are a better team. Gary Twigg might be the star there but he wouldn't get a game for Kilmarnock. Hearts have some decent international players, get three times the support Rovers have at their games, so no surprise they're better but I'm sure Rovers would be a test, but make no mistake Spurs in a competitive game would destroy Shamrock Rovers as well.

But you can knock seasons off, it's still misleading what you were claiming. Scotland are 15th and have two Champion's League places next season. Will that ever happen for the LOI? Not a hope. Not unless our people get off their backsides and attitudes to supporting our own league, as well as whoever, change.

you dont seem to understand. we can knock a year off, because thats what happens every year.

next season Scotland loses Rangers run to the final and you drop down the rankings rapidly - this can of course be offset by a good run in Europe by a Scottish club this year

and no matter what you say. Glasgow is in Scotland. Celtic are a Scottish club any which way you slice it

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

They would give them a test but Hearts are a better team. Gary Twigg might be the star there but he wouldn't get a game for Kilmarnock. Hearts have some decent international players, get three times the support Rovers have at their games, so no surprise they're better but I'm sure Rovers would be a test, but make no mistake Spurs in a competitive game would destroy Shamrock Rovers as well.

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Is SuperGretna back here?

When we lose in Europe, we lose narrowly, and usually after putting up a very good fight. We don't do 5-goal losses at home. Gretna in fairness to them, only do 4-goal losses.

For all it's alleged superiority, the SPL may have as many teams in Europe after this round, as the LOI.

As soon as i saw the results yesterday I wondered what would be said here.

Its interesting to see that the swiss sides are doing better nd better (holding celtic scoreless at home is pretty impressive by any standards).
If i recall last year young boys did well last year against spurs (in contrast to hearts).

The interesting one here is Rangers who have lost to swedish opposition (a team 9th in their league atm whil elfsbourg beaten by pats recently are 2nd). Despite getting an away goal in slovenia they were leading most of the game and towards the end lost it. Surely rangers as the seeded team, professional and more experienced should be able to hold the lead or at least a draw...

I actually think that Irish teams were very unlucky this year. before the draws i had hopes that we could have at least one other team joining shams in this round...rovers and pats were unlucky to get teams from the ukraine a strong league and bohs well their european record is very tragic.

If teams from lithuania or slovenia can beat the best scotland can offer why cant irish teams?
Its not about the gap or trying to prove a point ("hey look LOI is so much better than SPL) but accepting that with a bit of luck and determination it can happen (if teams from belarus or armenia can make group stages so can we...).

on a side note, i was very annoyed at work when we were watching the shams game in the bookies and some punter asked why we didnt have the spurs match on...

Irish soccer has much more challenges than the scots in terms of being credible alternatives to GAA or rugby... the strange thing is though as a kid growing up we all loved playing soccer, wouldnt dream of playing street rugby or GAA...somehow playing rugby or hurling with a bottle or a stone doesnt have the same charm... This to me shows that if the local club structures were better at building into the premier league and better at holding kids attention through their teenage years then it could theoretically capture the local imagination...

While there is a horribly condescending attitude from normal irish people towards the LOI there is also a condescending attitude among LOI fans, whether it was the hostility Sporting Fingal fans got or newcomers to the league who still follow english/scottish clubs. The LOI is actually quite exclusive... concentrated in certain areas of Dublin and some random towns around the country...

Results like this will hopefully shake things up and if not at least theres some variety in the group stages...lol

wow that was a long rambling post....well it is ten past 2...

just had a look at some other "discrepencies" in the euro round for discussion
Israeli team beats greek team 3 nil (didnt rovers knock out an israeli team last year)

Despite a poor showing in the first leg against sligo the ukrainian team beat strong opposotion from romania (irish opposition played a different team frm bucharest last year)

Big enough shock in the slovakian team beating Roma (given that juventus beat shams last year, barely does this mean slovakian teams are not only better than italian teams but also irish teams?)

The above mentioned steau bucharest lost 2 nil to cska sofia, both teams beat irish teams recently not sure what to make of that.

Portugese opposition got nil all v birmingham, sporting fingal played very well against portugese team last year
norwegian team got decent (? nil all) result against seeded portugese team
Norwegian team beats seeded dutch team

as per the swiss above only lost one nil to english teams (compared to 6 nil thrashing by english on scottish opposition)

Belgian clubs have been doing quite well as well but the georgian team held them to a score draw

Helsinki beat german team schalke (werent they champions recenelty?) 2 nil, surely irish teams have played/beaten finnish opposition...
It acutally seems co effecient and or league status is not an accurate indicator of probably success in europe looking at the variety in the results...

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Originally Posted by sparky

Irish soccer has much more challenges than the scots in terms of being credible alternatives to GAA or rugby... the strange thing is though as a kid growing up we all loved playing soccer, wouldnt dream of playing street rugby or GAA...somehow playing rugby or hurling with a bottle or a stone doesnt have the same charm... This to me shows that if the local club structures were better at building into the premier league and better at holding kids attention through their teenage years then it could theoretically capture the local imagination...

While there is a horribly condescending attitude from normal irish people towards the LOI there is also a condescending attitude among LOI fans, whether it was the hostility Sporting Fingal fans got or newcomers to the league who still follow english/scottish clubs. The LOI is actually quite exclusive... concentrated in certain areas of Dublin and some random towns around the country...

Results like this will hopefully shake things up and if not at least theres some variety in the group stages...lol

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Marketing and television took away LOI attendances 40 years ago, and has kept them away ever since. If you're on tv, neutrals will notice you. The SPL is on Sky or ESPN practically every day of the week. If the games aren't live, there's highlights shown. Every live game is promoted accordingly by either station. There are regular reminders on SSN, and plugs on other live game coverage. The games are shown when nobody else is playing. Despite the primitive nature of the football, and the poor quality of the teams outside the big two, both stations can make the most mundane game look attractive on tv.

The LOI has to be on television to be marketed in this country, and it's marketing extends to a total of 3 hours per week coverage maximum (if there's a live game) on the national broadcaster. There is few promotional material beforehand if any, half the league doesn't get as much as a goal shown every year, let alone a game, what games are shown are poorly covered, with minimalist programme length, when everyone else is playing, the presenters and panellists usually don't even set foot in the stadium these days. Recession or no recession, the SPL can't start without a tv deal. By contrast, the state broadcaster would happily ignore the league if the international team's qualifiers weren't part of the package. That's what they want, and when they show that, they do it very well. BO'H may be an experienced broadcaster, but he looked astonished at his panel last year describing them the prospect of having Ireland qualifiers on Friday nights as terrible, because "you have to go to work on Fridays". Well that's what we have to live with in the LOI every week.

LOI coverage is minimalist and poorly broadcast in this country. The SPL is marketed well and popular, even if it's just a game between Kilmarnock and Motherwell. As long as that happens, the SPL and other leagues will always be seen as glamourous, compared to what's on offer here.

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Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

It's my league as well, I'm just honest about its failings. How do people like me make it worst? I go to every Shels game I can.

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That's what we need about here - we obviously don't have enough of them -a few more people to point out the myriad imperfections :rolleyes:

Fair play to you you support shels and some scottish team.

Let me put it in simple terms. You seem familiar with the term barstoolers. Can we agree that barstoolers - while technically we can't miss what we never had - are part of the problem and not particularly good for our league?

Ok? So most of us know some man u - or liverpool, or leeds, or whoever was doing well at one time or another, but not so good now - 'supporter' who talks about we and us. If talk ever turns to football then expect the ever reliable 'no who do you really support'. And only talks about he loi to ask why do you follow that crap,

Now contrary to your central thesis - since you started posting here - the majority of the posters have nothing against celtic fans. But some of us reserve a special - cold dark - place in our hearts for a particular kind of celtic fan.

The one who thinks nothing is more irish than supporting a, particular, foreign football team. Who believes because they were set up by 'a monk from donegal' they're more irish than any one. Believes that it's ok not to support that crap (the loi), but it could be worse because it's not like i support man u or chelsea or alloa. Oh no ,they're all british, i support an irish team - they just don't happen to play there.

These people annoy me slightly.

So yeah - you are not the worst, so - denigrate away at our league - it's what most of us come to do anyway - but stop being an advocate for the worst form of barstooler.

And just in case it hasn't been asked in this or the other thread.

Who were the first british team to win the european cup?

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Originally Posted by A N Mouse

Let me put it in simple terms. You seem familiar with the term barstoolers. Can we agree that barstoolers - while technically we can't miss what we never had - are part of the problem and not particularly good for our league?

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I don't agree with this. At least these people are watching football - some of them may even like the football aspect more than the sitting in the pub aspect.

They can be converted.

As for the GAA heads? In many cases, they are beyond all hope because you're not only up against taste in sport but also an ingrained ideology that demonises the foreign sport of 'soccer' and the West Brits that follow it.

Ironic; that prejudice isn't too far away from the attitude of some LoI fans who use the word 'British' when describing Celtic, as an insult.

I'm a GAA head... this segregation of supporters of Irish sport is something I don't get. If we're trying to convert a GAA head but ignoring 'soccer' fans no matter their brand of league they support then we have serious issues.

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

I'm a GAA head... this segregation of supporters of Irish sport is something I don't get. If we're trying to convert a GAA head but ignoring 'soccer' fans no matter their brand of league they support then we have serious issues.

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Most people who follow sports do not carry such prejudices. Still, there is a continuing historical tendency on the part of many GAA followers to deride soccer: I see it a lot where I work.
Don't get me wrong: I'm not suggesting that people should be ignored; merely that certain people are less likely than others to be won over to the LoI.