Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

I'm sure a viable replacement could have been found if a search was undertaken. Personally, I think Stephen Kenny would have been suitable. I know others wouldn't agree, but I explained my thinking here and here (although I guess such talk is academic now)::

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Stephen Kenny is viable. John Sheridan is viable. Even Brian Kerr who I'm certain is factually incorrect in his contract extension related assertion that "It’s not usually how the board of the FAI and its chief executive have worked in relation to managers in recent times*" is a viable option. But I said compelling. ;-)

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

And from Paul Doyle in the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/football...martin-o-neill

I thought the following paragraph was both amusing and depressing at the same time in how accurate it was:

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He's bang on. The really pertinent bit being "A lack of control has been a recurring feature". We've sung this old song before.

*Traps contract extension was agreed before we'd qualification in the bag. It's like Delaney is desperate to prostrate himself in a demonstration of faith.

Craig Bellamy, who played under O'Neill for a few months at Celtic, on O'Neill's management style: https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/cr...s-style-139055

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Originally Posted by Conan Doherty

"A lot of the stuff we get taught... throw it out the window. [O'Neill] does the complete opposite," Bellamy said on Sky Sports' coverage of the Wales-Ireland game.

"You won't even see him. There are times he turns up on a Friday. There were times I couldn't tell you what formation we were playing on a Saturday or who was playing - you'd just read the list and it was basically, I had to look at someone else, Neil Lennon, and ask, 'what formation are we playing?'

"There was no information whatsoever but, I'll tell you, he knew his players. You knew where you stood with him and if you played well for him, the confidence he'd give you and the way he'd make you feel, you just want to run even more for him."

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHH9HrV2Ct8

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Martin O’Neill is in the managerial elite even if a top job eludes him

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The Republic of Ireland manager, once the favourite to succeed Sir Alex Ferguson at Manchester United, is unfortunate never to have had a chance at one of the biggest clubs

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https://www.theguardian.com/football...job-eludes-him

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t tends to be forgotten, for example, that there was once a time when O’Neill was the overwhelming favourite to take over from Sir Alex Ferguson at Manchester United. O’Neill was managing Celtic at the time, where he won seven trophies and reached the Uefa Cup final, and the Manchester press corps still talk about the 2003 press conference before the two teams played a pre-season fixture in Seattle. When O’Neill was asked about replacing Ferguson he answered with great diplomacy bearing in mind the man himself was directly to his left. Yet the journalist who asked the question was already feeling a pair of Glaswegian eyes boring into his skull. “Don’t worry about him,” Ferguson whispered to O’Neill, quietly enough not to be heard by his audience but loud enough to be picked up by the tapes. Ferguson always sounded extra Glaswegian and talked a little bit quicker when his temper had been roused. “Aye, he’s a ****ing *****.”

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My da came across this whilst going through a few things in the house the other day and showed me:

http://i68.tinypic.com/nfpspi.jpg

It's from a June 1966 copy of the Columban, which was the old school magazine of St. Columb's College in Derry. The photo is of the college's victorious gaelic football team and features Martin O'Neill, my da and the other members of the team, all with their mismatching socks. I thought it was a nice historical memento. :)

Class Danny.

Presumably to be kept on, but for how long? What will it take for the trigger to be pulled? Nations League failure, or struggling with Euro qualification?

With the likelihood of a number of retirements on the horizon, we need to rebuild.
Allowing O'Neill and/or Keane in charge of that task will be a monumental failure.

What do people think of Slaven Bilic? His Croatia teams played with a superb blend of attacking panache and defensive organisation. They are obviously blessed with better attacking players than us, but in his tenure their back line was similar to ours in terms of ability.

After West Ham Bilic needs a good long rest and maybe even to have a good long look at himself and see if being a manger is for him .

He would be a big gamble .

The Case For O'Neill Staying:
1. He was hired to do a job for the FAI, a job where the goal was to get his team to the World Cup. He came very very close.
2. He has blooded a couple of good players in Callum O'Dowda and Cyrus Christie
3. He has been loyal to his players.
4. Getting rid of O'Neill would mean starting all over again.
5. O'Neill has a good grasp of the Irish scene, whereas a foreign or English manager might not.
6. He restored confidence to the team in that they became hard to score against.


The Case Against O'Neill Staying:

1. Ireland were as lucky as lucky can be in this campaign. We needed teams to do us a series of favors in the final two games and all of the favors came to fruition. It was an uncanny run of luck. We were also lucky in Wales, having defended for most of the ninety minutes and also in Georgia, again having defended for almost ninety minutes.

2. O'Neill's loyalty to his players was a major part of his downfall. It was clear to everyone that he stayed loyal to Glenn Whelan, when he should have jettisoned him for a more capable midfielder. Proof of his wrongdoing regarding Whelan came in the final three games where he stared Arter in his stead (if Whelan was so brilliant why would he drop him for the team's three most crucial games). Also he stayed loyal for far too long to Daryl Murphy. Murphy had scored a goal in Serbia but was not worthy of a place in the starting eleven (many would argue, and rightly so, he wasn't worthy of a place on the subs bench either). Be that as it may, having been picked on the back of a two goal performance against Moldova, Murphy was made the main striker in Cardiff. It was patently obvious after 45 minutes that he was completely ineffective in the role he was playing. Admittedly if he was given a ball or two in front of goal he might have made hay, but under the circumstances he should have been withdrawn at half time in Cardiff. O'Neill's loyalty to his man meant that we had no tip to our spear. We emerged with a victory nonetheless, but there was no apparent evaluation of Daryl's performance and so he was given two subsequent starts against Denmark. Again he should have been withdrawn at half time in Copenhagen - Long or Hogan are far more mobile - and insanely he was started from the off in the Dublin game. Loyalty, blind loyalty from O'Neill cost his team.

3. O'Neill was single handedly responsible for the dropping of two points against Austria. Austria were one of the weakest teams to visit Dublin in years. They were there for the taking, yet we treated them like they were Germany. We played scared - hoofing the ball all day long and paid the price with the goal against us just before half time. We spent the rest of the game chasing the win and, inexplicably, Hoolahan was kept off the pitch until the final twenty minutes. When he came on, Wes changed the game. We got an equaliser and almost a winner. Proof positive that he should have started.

4. Hard to outdo the performance against Austria, Martin hit new depths with the performance in Tblisi. One was left to ask oneself if the players had been instructed to stand in their own penalty area and just kick the ball back to their opponents rather than try something constructive? How could a manager ask his players to do that? He never would - it is the equivalent of football suicide. But, based on the subsequent evidence, that's apparently exactly what Martin O'Neill instructed his players to do.

5. More of the same against Wales. We defended well, no doubt about it, but remember Wales were without their two most creative players (Allen being injured), and got the smash and grab goal.

6. O'Neill basked in the glow of the Cardiff success, and even deserves a modicum of credit for his team's keeping a clean sheet in Copenhagen. But having said after Copenhagen that we needed to be creative in the return leg, the manager left his most influential player off the park from the off. If Hoolahan was not good enough, or not influential enough to play in three quarters of the tie against Denmark, why then bother bringing him on for the final quarter. Very misleading. Did Wes have something to offer the team or not?

7. The sum total of Martin O'Neill's performance as a coach for this campaign was misguided loyalty to his players, and a catalogue of highly questionable decisions regarding team selection. Ultimately it was his suicidal tactics (the performance in Tblisi is beyond reproach) and the style of play he fermented with his players which are most galling

There will be a few countries looking for new managers now. Ourselves, Italy, Scotland, the USA, possibly Wales, NI and Holland.

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Originally Posted by NeverFeltBetter

Presumably to be kept on, but for how long? What will it take for the trigger to be pulled? Nations League failure, or struggling with Euro qualification?

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Failure to get into Euro 2020, now that numbers are expanded would probably be right (Nations League will give an opportunity to experiment a bit). While aspects of the manner of our departure from the World Cup are definitely disappointing, overall getting into a playoff from a group containing four teams with serious qualification aspirations is within the range of "reasonable expectations" for us. I would hope to see some evolution in our system - it's all well and good to have a strong defensive set-up, but we have to be be better at forcing errors from opponents and pouncing on them to create chances - that's the part of Jack Charlton's strategy people who complain about his 'hoofball' plan forget - the point of the long ball was to constantly have teams chasing back to their own goal and then hounding them to force errors (See Houghton '88, Sheedy and Quinn '90).

Another important task for the management team is to blood in the talented youngsters coming through in the coming months, something they've already managed to do reasonably successfully over the past few years, even though qualifying for France actually limited opportunities to do this - so far they've given debuts to Rob Elliot, Shane Duffy, Cyrus Christie, Kevin Long, John Egan, Andy Boyle, Eunan O'Kane, Callum O'Dowda, Conor Hourihane, Harry Arter, Jonny Hayes, Daryl Horgan, Alan Browne, David McGoldrick and Sean Maguire - they need to give some of these players more responsibility as well as bringing in some of the youngsters coming through

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Originally Posted by samhaydenjr

Failure to get into Euro 2020, now that numbers are expanded would probably be right (Nations League will give an opportunity to experiment a bit). While aspects of the manner of our departure from the World Cup are definitely disappointing, overall getting into a playoff from a group containing four teams with serious qualification aspirations is within the range of "reasonable expectations" for us. I would hope to see some evolution in our system - it's all well and good to have a strong defensive set-up, but we have to be be better at forcing errors from opponents and pouncing on them to create chances - that's the part of Jack Charlton's strategy people who complain about his 'hoofball' plan forget - the point of the long ball was to constantly have teams chasing back to their own goal and then hounding them to force errors (See Houghton '88, Sheedy and Quinn '90).

Another important task for the management team is to blood in the talented youngsters coming through in the coming months, something they've already managed to do reasonably successfully over the past few years, even though qualifying for France actually limited opportunities to do this - so far they've given debuts to Rob Elliot, Shane Duffy, Cyrus Christie, Kevin Long, John Egan, Andy Boyle, Eunan O'Kane, Callum O'Dowda, Conor Hourihane, Harry Arter, Jonny Hayes, Daryl Horgan, Alan Browne, David McGoldrick and Sean Maguire - they need to give some of these players more responsibility as well as bringing in some of the youngsters coming through

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In one way, not qualifying means that in the next year's friendlies in the build up to the WC, younger players can be blooded, experimentation can occur and maybe confidence can be built. There is certainly an opportunity, the question is will it occur.

I'm torn. Part me thinks better to stick with what we know because a replacement could be worse.

I'd be happy for him to go though. I have no idea, I mean no idea at all, what Keane brings to the table. One of the world's best midfielders must know how a midfield is supposed to work.

Seeing Walford and Guppy there just makes me think of the poor local FAI coaches and development officers who have had to wear a pay cut. Walford can't afford socks I suppose so maybe he's not draining too much FAI money.

Names that need to be in the mix are Stephen Kenny, Lee Carsley, Steven Reid and Keith Andrews. The latter two as back-up.

Chris Hughton would be great but he's the manager after next I think. I have a soft spot for McCarthy too but even rationally I think he could do a job especially if given a free hand now. He has proved himself as a rebuilder before.

Some McCarthy era stalwarts like Carsley, Cunningham, Breen, Kilbane, Kinsella all seem to have something going for them in the brains department, as does Keith Andrews.

I've been a big fan of O'Neill but I think It's time to call it a day. I would have given Trap more time but in truth he had lost his authority at Euro 2012 and never recovered it. I don't think O'Neill can come back from this.

A replacement will be tricky though. There is no obvious candidate out there.

We don't have to do anything rash though. We have all the time in the world. Maybe move on O'Neill, Guppy and Walford and ask Roy to take on the Cup of Nations.

I think we should do this without the Denis O'Brien money. It seems to poison the well with certain other journalists and broadcasters.

6 players under the age of 25 have been capped by O'Neill (maybe 7, not sure about John Egan).

3 of them came this year.

Upon reflection that idea in my last post about giving it to Keane is cobblers. He's burnt every bridge he's ever been on. It would be out of the frying pan and into the fire with the press.

Bring back Big Mick.

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I think we should do this without the Denis O'Brien money.

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You can be sure the Danish manager isn't on Martin O'Neill's salary.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

Upon reflection that idea in my last post about giving it to Keane is cobblers. He's burnt every bridge he's ever been on. It would be out of the frying pan and into the fire with the press.

Bring back Big Mick.

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I am a die hard Keane fan and back him to the hilt. But I don't think he's management material.

Let's move forward. No Mick. No Roy. No MON.

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Originally Posted by brine3

I am a die hard Keane fan and back him to the hilt. But I don't think he's management material.

Let's move forward. No Mick. No Roy. No MON.

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I appreciate the sentiment, and i don't necessarily disagree. But who should it be?

Been wondering about the "win at home, draw away" narrative that's sprung up on the forum in the last few days with regards to the management team, so I've had a look at the numbers.

In competitive games, the home and away results are almost identical. One more game has been drawn away than at home, the same difference between home and away victories, and two games have been lost both at home and away.

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O’Neill  P  W  D  L
Home    12  6  4  2
Away    12  5  5  2

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For me, this doesn't really prove anything. Draw your own conclusions.

(note these numbers don't include the games played at Euro 2016, where all fixtures were played on neutral territory)

I think it's more that when we are away, the waywe play would suggest a team that has a 'draw away, win at home mentality', but when we're at home, we don't have that mentality.

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Been wondering about the "win at home, draw away" narrative that's sprung up on the forum in the last few days with regards to the management team, so I've had a look at the numbers.

In competitive games, the home and away results are almost identical. One more game has been drawn away than at home, the same difference between home and away victories, and two games have been lost both at home and away.

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O’Neill  P  W  D  L
Home    12  6  4  2
Away    12  5  5  2

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For me, this doesn't really prove anything. Draw your own conclusions.

(note these numbers don't include the games played at Euro 2016, where all fixtures were played on neutral territory)

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To only lose 2 out of 12 games away from home is excellent. To only win 50% of our home games is not good. That's the only conclusion I can draw but I would imagine that the record under Trap is roughly the same with roughly the same type of football. I'd be interested in Scotland's/Wales'/N Ireland's comparable records during the same period.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

I'd be interested in Scotland's/Wales'/N Ireland's comparable records during the same period.

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Scotland	P	W	D	L
Home	10	6	3	1
Away	10	3	3	4
Wales	P	W	D	L
Home	10	5	4	1
Away	10	5	4	1
N. I.	P	W	D	L
Home	11	7	2	2
Away	11	5	3	3

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

To only lose 2 out of 12 games away from home is excellent. To only win 50% of our home games is not good. That's the only conclusion I can draw but I would imagine that the record under Trap is roughly the same with roughly the same type of football. I'd be interested in Scotland's/Wales'/N Ireland's comparable records during the same period.

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Added in the home and away competitive records of previous three full time managers (Trapattoni's excludes Euro 2012)

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O’Neill  P  W  D  L
Home    12  6  4  2
Away    12  5  5  2

Trapattoni P W D L
Home      16 6 6 4
Away      16 8 7 1

Kerr  P W D L
Home  8 4 3 1
Away  8 3 4 1
       
McCarthy P  W D L
Home    18 11 6 1
Away    18  7 4 7

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Kerr had the same 50% home winning record, but never beat a team ranked higher than 84, Georgia at home in 2003

I think it was established when he departed that Trap was statistically our best away manager ever but worst home (among managers who have managed more than a nominal number of games). It's worth noting that Trap's one away defeat was his last away game (a virtual dead rubber?) in Austria. Noel King was in charge when we lost the last game I think.

He failed to win 10 out of 16 home games. O'Neill has failed to win 6 out of 12. Not great but not quite as bad. I think it just goes to show how similar they are. I argued recently here that not a huge amount has really changed but I was shot down by one poster saying that under MON we've seen nothing even remotely as bad as the 6-1 home defeat to Germany. Well, we can add Denmark as a comparison now!

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I think it was established when he departed that Trap was statistically our best away manager ever but worst home (among managers who have managed more than a nominal number of games). It's worth noting that Trap's one away defeat was his last away game (a virtual dead rubber?) in Austria. Noel King was in charge when we lost the last game I think.

He failed to win 10 out of 16 home games. O'Neill has failed to win 6 out of 12. Not great but not quite as bad. I think it just goes to show how similar they are. I argued recently here that not a huge amount has really changed but I was shot down by one poster saying that under MON we've seen nothing even remotely as bad as the 6-1 home defeat to Germany. Well, we can add Denmark as a comparison now!

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It seems to me as if O'Neill's "style" (if you could say he has one at all) has regressed more and more into being like the totally-risk-averse style of Trap as time has gone on. Why that is, I don't know, but I definitely remember when O'Neill took over, I felt it refreshing or almost a relief just to see our players pressing again after the mind-numbing dullness, lethargy and stagnancy of how Trap sent us out. I do think O'Neill's teams do press a bit more overall than Trap's teams ever did - it was virtually non-existent under Trap - but our use of the tactic seems to have gradually waned, particularly over this campaign. For example, there was none of it against Georgia away and, although our goal against Wales came from Hendrick pressuring Williams and forcing an error, there wasn't a huge deal of pressing otherwise in that game from what I can recall. That's just my perception of O'Neill's evolution (or devolution, even) as Ireland boss, mind; I have no stats, figures or graphs to necessarily back that feeling up.

Interesting interview here, by the way, from after O'Neill was sacked from his role at Sunderland:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv5Gf5h1o_s

Some of the questions - particularly the allegation that he had no "plan B" - could still be applied to O'Neill today in respect of his performance as Ireland manager, but he still gets quite tetchy and defensive with the interviewer when he's challenged. He has an evident difficulty in accepting criticism and in acknowledging possible flaws and weaknesses. As one of the commenters below the video on YouTube suggests, is it possible for him to ever learn or evolve if he can't first acknowledge areas of his management that could do with improvement?

Yes, we press more now under MON although the high press against Latvia(?) has regressed since. Full backs get further forward too. But the general style and approach is very similar still.

This is a very well put together piece from Kieran Shannon I think, no hysteria, just fair - http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...xfBj9M5IHfoBU=

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

Added in the home and away competitive records of previous three full time managers (Trapattoni's excludes Euro 2012)

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O’Neill  P  W  D  L
Home    12  6  4  2
Away    12  5  5  2

Trapattoni P W D L
Home      16 6 6 4
Away      16 8 7 1

Kerr  P W D L
Home  8 4 3 1
Away  8 3 4 1
       
McCarthy P  W D L
Home    18 11 6 1
Away    18  7 4 7

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Kerr had the same 50% home winning record, but never beat a team ranked higher than 84, Georgia at home in 2003

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Mick's home record was excellent I see. If only he could have combined the gritty away records of Trap/MON with that we might have been on a par with Germany.

Rumours doing the rounds and Martin O'Neill has been installed as an odds on favourite for the Everton job by all major bookies.

It might all be over.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

Rumours doing the rounds and Martin O'Neill has been installed as an odds on favourite for the Everton job by all major bookies.

It might all be over.

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I hope he goes . I don’t want to watch what Martin O’ Neill has produced football wise for two more years .

I think that would be a good way out for all concerned. It means we can freshen things up without O'Neill having to suffer the ignominy of being sacked.

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Originally Posted by backstothewall

Rumours doing the rounds and Martin O'Neill has been installed as an odds on favourite for the Everton job by all major bookies.

It might all be over.

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Koeman being replaced by O'Neill. Ronald will love that....

Would he bring Keane with him, I wonder? If not, Keane would probably be odds on for the Ireland job.

If he goes it will be mixed feelings. The final match was a real letdown and I didn’t agree with all of his decisions. But if we’re being honest he didn’t have a great group of players to select from and the absences of Coleman & McCarthy for important matches in this campaign are in my view a larger reason for our failure to qualify than his tactics or team selections. If our aim is to qualify for Euro 2020 I would be confident that O’Neill is our best chance to do that. I think Roy adds some value to the setup but would have reservations of him being the main man given his temperament & unpredictability.

FAI confident that he'll be staying https://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2017...-everton-link/

A bit harsh on Pulis perhaps but something we can easily relate to - http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/s...re-463522.html

'Opinion: Burnley Are Setting The Blueprint For How Ireland Should Play': https://www.balls.ie/football/irelan...nalysis-378472

Sam Allerdyce has signed an 18-month deal with Everton, so O'Neill won't be going there anyway: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42186164