I was talking about the EU politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
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I was talking about the EU politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
I'd have to wonder about the attention someone is paying to what's actually going on, if they're asking who said "no plan b". Take your pick. Brian Cowen was quoted as saying it on Newstalk. I heard Dick Roche say "there's no Plan C" myself on the same station, which was funny in and of itself. Various leaders and representatives of European countries, the Commission, etc, etc. Perhaps less of the righteous indignation, ranting and abuse and more of the listening might help.
adam
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7453839.stm
Quote:
EU mulls options after Irish No vote
But there was no answer. "There is no plan B!" we were told.
To be honest, it began to sound like a rather tired refrain. And - surprise, surprise - it turns out that in fact there are a number of possible plan Bs.
Adam, I'm not surprised the Yes side publicly said there was no plan B in the run up to the vote, as to have a plan B you are admitting that you could be defeated, which would have almost been a self-fulfilling prophecy.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
That said, I would've expected them, privately, to have a plan B in their back pockets to launch following defeat, particularly in the weeks running up to the vote when it was clear the vote, whilst undecided, definately wasn't going to be a resounding Yes.
I don't think you'll find many people arguing the Yes side come out of this with much credit at all. If Cowen had been in the job any longer I think this could have been terminal for him, and it may still work out that way.
But personally, I view that as a separate issue as to whether to vote Yes or No.
The reaction from the different eurpoean countries to the no vote seem very mixed and often contradictory to me.
Initially the French and Germans went on the attack saying that Ireland must sort out her problem or get left behind. It seems that someone has had a word in their ear since and that's been toned right down. At around the same time the British were saying that Ireland won't be bullied or left behind. Now the Commission has taken a middle road and said that we'll be given a few months of space to decide what we want to do next.
If there was a 'Plan C' I would have expected to see a better level of coordination. The various european politicians seem to me to be making this up as they go along.
I'm not talking about before the referendum, I'm talking about afterwards. Follow the link in my post, read the articles, check the dates.
"No Plan B" says one of two things:
- I'm incompetent.
- I'm a liar.
There are no other interpretations.
adam
Interesting that the Czech President Vaclav Klaus is happy with the vote - "It is a victory of freedom and reason over artificial elitist projects and European bureaucracy." I assume they haven't ratified the treaty yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bald Student
*notices that he's nodding his head in full agreement on all points again*Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
No plan B can mean many things:
3. There is little or nothing to change or negotiate on.
4. You were given your chance. Live with your choice.
In the circumstances of those determined to vote no regardless, we should be let rot/live with our choice.
Still an abhorrent embarrassment* of a result, a week on.
*For want of more offensive terms at the cost of accuracy
There are plenty of other interpretations. For starters, its not a case of 'shall we go down road A, or down road B'. We're going down road A regardless, but a bridge needs to be built to get there (sorry, tacky metaphors seem the order of the day). Given that the No side have not ever tried to present a reasonable alternative (mass revolt excluded) to solving the ills of the current EU structures, they have not presented a 'plan B'. That doesn't mean we're in Limbo.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
I always find it funny when people like a president give out about 'the elite'.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
He's a Man of the People, clearly.
I'll go for the former.Quote:
Originally Posted by dahamsta
On an unrelated point, I can't get over the arrogance of some Irish groups who are encouraging other nations not to ratify, based on the decision of the Irish people to vote No.
Does it not occur to anyone that national Governments represent their own citizens? If you follow this, then the other 26 have no option but to ratify as they have no mandate whatsoever to reference the Irish result.
Well, no - they can reject it of their own volition, which is a separate (though admittedly unlikely) option. Ireland's vote being irrelevant in the context of other countries' votes means it doesn't affect it either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
They had no mandate to ratify either. It wasn't explicitly part of their election manifestos.Quote:
Originally Posted by OneRedArmy
The rules state that if one nation doesn't ratify the treaty falls. Clear enough. Couldn't the governments of Europe be using the time more constructively, say maybe implementing some of the much vaunted "positive" aspects of the treaty that do't require an EU treaty. I look forward to all these friends of the people implementing generous Charters of Workers rights and getting down to solving the problem of climate change.
Or maybe they could ask their citizens if they actually want the Treaty?
Does anyone know for a fact that the EU cannot proceed with some aspects of Lisbon without us?
It is possible the term Pan B could be used two ways
- plan B to implement Lisbon.
- plan B for a new Treaty.
I think it is natural that the EU look towards Ireland. It is up to them to decide if a second vote happens, they just need to hear from Cowan what he plans to do as they can't look at other plans until then. Still think this is a massive test for him both domestically and internationally. He will be able to delay for a while because the main opposition is on the Yes side but ultimately he has to make a decision. Choose the wrong one & he may never recover.
It's been mentioned, but then so has a two-speed Europe, with countries opting out of continuing integration if they want/are told to. Don't know how real an option that is though.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
The last thing the EU wants is a two-tier membership. It may start off with Ireland being the founder member, but I think the EU would be fearful that other countries would actively seek the slow lane option. The last thing the EU wants is a top tier with 15 counties and a lower tier with 12 counties. This two-tier issue is rolled out every single time there is a major disagreement in the Union. Apparently the UK were going to be in an effective lower tier because they didn't sign up to the Euro and the European Central Bank. No sign of that!!
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
I voted for the Nice Treaty, which was pro-EU, and pro-immigration, as has been seen since. :rolleyes:
I'm not anti-EU, I'm anti this constitution, and have been long before the original one was agreed, and will continue to be until it's consigned to the bin, where it should be after we declared it null and void last week.
Yesterday, Napoleon announced that without this treaty, further enlargement wasn't possible.
Great. Pity your mate Chirac didn't realise that 5 years ago, and not allow the Eastern bloc in, then there wouldn't be the need for this airhead idea of a "constitution" in the first place. The EU invited them all in, so it's their problem if they can't run the Union "more efficiently" as a result, not Ireland's.
Shut...door...horse...bolted
We havent decided what we're going to do about it, have we? The Taoiseach has told them we need til October to sort the situation out. Essentially, we haven't passed the treaty but we haven't ruled out that amendments or a declaration like that in Seville dismissing all the lies of the No campaign might see it actually being passed. Now, I don't think that will happen. But its within the realms of possibility so as long as we're humming and hawing, why do you want to take away other country's right to pass it, or as looks like in the Czech R., block it. It doesn't matter if 26 countries pass it, it can't happen if we never say Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by mypost
Thats a turn up for the books. Cryogenics, or what?Quote:
Yesterday, Napoleon announced that without this treaty, further enlargement wasn't possible.
ooo am I part of the political class :eek:Quote:
Great. Pity your mate Chirac
Poles out, Ireland for the Irish, and so on. Funny what an economic slowdown can do to people.Quote:
didn't realise that 5 years ago, and not allow the Eastern bloc in, then there wouldn't be the need for this airhead idea of a "constitution" in the first place. The EU invited them all in, so it's their problem if they can't run the Union "more efficiently" as a result, not Ireland's. Shut...door...horse...bolted
Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinZac
Immigrations a non issue. With the economy going the way that will slow down too. What is an issue is the super exploitation of migrant labour.