NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

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Originally Posted by backtowalsall

Thing is though, it isn't a national flag. It was the flag of a parliament which is now defunct, and has no more legal or national standing than the flag of the Confederacy. Northern Ireland has no flag.

That is not to say it shouldn't have one, it really does need one, but that one isn't acceptable as it represents that government and its action/inactions that we don't need to go into, but we all know about.

If the IFA were serious about change, they would design a new flag, or get to folks on the hill to agree to one, and start playing Danny Boy (which according to the commonwealth games people is Northern Ireland's anthem).

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I think we may be talking at cross purposes, to an extent, backtowalsall.

Are you talking about the Union Flag, or the Northern Ireland flag (Ulster Banner)?

The "official" flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag - it is not flown at Northern Ireland games.

I've set out my stance on flags - St Patrick's Cross seems perfectly logical to me.

On anthem - the sooner we have a uniquely Northern Irish "sporting" anthem the better IMO.

I would not be surprised to see movement on this issue in the near future - whilst it may be an unpopular decision amongst some who feel their "Britishness" is being somehow weakened, it's a decision that the IFA know has to be made sometime.

The difference with the 4 UK federations is that in 1993 they signed an agreement and lodged it with FIFA, and it is written in to the Annex 2 rules as an addendum. The 4 UK federations do not have a gentlemans agreement they have a legal document referring to parentage as a criteria.

There is no exception needed here for Ireland. All the rules are already in place.
There are rules for eligibility, rules for dual nationals, rules for acquiring the nationality of the federation you want to play for.

All that is needed is to finally decide which rules apply to our situation.

So far FIFA have been satisfied by being born on the Island entitles you for Irish citizenship followed by the right to play for Ireland. All that fits under article 15. That is what FIFA legal head wrote last October

The NI cants want FIFA to apply the Annex conditions.

Was refering to the red and white "Northern Ireland flag"

The st. Patircks cross, even if you put the 6 pointed star and red hand in the middle, would be a lot better. It would look a lot like the Florida state flag. Ian and Martin might even be able to wangle a free week in Disneyland out of it!

Slightly off topic but I hope none of this affects the Setanta Cup which we all need to continue to develop.

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Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er

No need to apologise but it was a serious question. I was aware of the historical reasons behind the 4 uk associations being allowed compete, the original point I made was in response to you saying "I dont see why you think Northern Irish Nationalists should have their own rule different from everyone else."

My resposne (if it wasn't clear) was saying that the 4 UK teams already have a rule that's different from anyone else so there are always exceptions.

I was being slightly facetious but would have been interested in your opinion on why you think it's okay for the 4 parts of the UK to have their own rules yet not think it's okay for Northern Nationalsits and be prepared to concede there's an arguement for an exceptional rule to be passed in this instance that wouldn't impact on all FIFA members.

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Its 4 different countries, thats why. Relatively easy to legislate. The same thing applies to Hong Kong now being part of China for example, but still having their own national team.

How do you write a law for someone who 'feels' like they belong to another country different from their birth country? And dont meet any of the other 5 criteria, that would make them eligible.

I actually believe the rules should be tightened. For example:

This will make you laugh, but using Gibson as an example. If you hadnt capped him, and FIFA told him he was ineligable for the RoI. He would actually be eligible for England, because, he has a British Passport/Citizenship, and im pretty sure he will have lived in England for over 2 years.
(I dont know if his loan move to Antwerp scuppers this or not, but I think you can see the point im trying to make).

If you look at all the academies of the 4 Big clubs, Arsenal, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, the number of foriegners is staggering. All of these players under current rules, could become England internationals, providing they can:
a) Secure a passport,
b) Live there for 2 years.

Its a farce.

IMO, any rule changes to suit 'Northern Nationalists' will make this even easier. You have to remember that FIFA will absolutely not make a rule specific to Ireland. Any rules created will be applicable to all member nations.

The so called United Kingdom actually now provides Passports peculiar to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland which are different to those issued to English people.

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Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

The so called United Kingdom actually now provides Passports peculiar to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland which are different to those issued to English people.

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Im not sure thats right (although my passport is about 8 years old at present). Do you have a source?

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

I actually believe the rules should be tightened. For example:

This will make you laugh, but using Gibson as an example. If you hadnt capped him, and FIFA told him he was ineligable for the RoI. He would actually be eligible for England, because, he has a British Passport/Citizenship, and im pretty sure he will have lived in England for over 2 years.
(I dont know if his loan move to Antwerp scuppers this or not, but I think you can see the point im trying to make).

If you look at all the academies of the 4 Big clubs, Arsenal, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, the number of foriegners is staggering. All of these players under current rules, could become England internationals, providing they can:
a) Secure a passport,
b) Live there for 2 years.

Its a farce..

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I see your point Absinthe but I'm not sure that's how it'd pan out. Of course you never have an answer until a test case is brought. BUT in a hypothetical situation where England offered a cap to an Irish lad of Gibsons age on the basis that he was resident in the English FAs jurisdiction for over two years -an appealant (either Irish FA or an opponent of Englands) may cite as best practice a ruling made against an English Rugby player (name avoids me) who attempted to play for Scotland on the basis he went to boarding school there.

In that case he was ruled inelligable as, regardless of where he slept at night and was normally resident for most of the previous five years, his legal address up until the day of his 18th birthday was his parents home back in England.

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Originally Posted by geysir

The difference with the 4 UK federations is that in 1993 they signed an agreement and lodged it with FIFA, and it is written in to the Annex 2 rules as an addendum. The 4 UK federations do not have a gentlemans agreement they have a legal document referring to parentage as a criteria.

There is no exception needed here for Ireland. All the rules are already in place.
There are rules for eligibility, rules for dual nationals, rules for acquiring the nationality of the federation you want to play for.

All that is needed is to finally decide which rules apply to our situation.

So far FIFA have been satisfied by being born on the Island entitles you for Irish citizenship followed by the right to play for Ireland. All that fits under article 15. That is what FIFA legal head wrote last October

The NI cants want FIFA to apply the Annex conditions.

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With the current rules, 'Northern Nationalists' are eligible for the Republic of Ireland if they are ruled to be an Irish Citizen, and only an Irish Citizen at birth. This is where the GFA bit can comes into play a bit. It basically enshrines a persons right to consider themselves British, Irish or Both.

My own personal take on it, is that this gives you Dual Citizenship as you are entitled to, and can claim at any time either or both Citizenships. IF you have two Citizenships you then have to meet one of the additional statues to qualify for either country.

Northern Nationalists will claim that they only want Irish Citizenship, and will never take British citizenship. Its a fair point, but again my take on it is that as they have the choice, they are technically dual citizens.

So, in the context of this issue, it boils down to this. Can a person be born in Northern Ireland, and not be eligible for the Northern Ireland football team? I honestly dont see how they could be deemed ineligable for their country of birth at birth.

This is the situation if there is no rule change, (which I dont think there will be, as, as stated before I dont think there is enough justification for a special rule to be introduced). We are very small blips on FIFAs radar screen. i.e. they dont really care, its not like we are France and Germany.

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Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

I see your point Absinthe but I'm not sure that's how it'd pan out. Of course you never have an answer until a test case is brought. BUT in a hypothetical situation where England offered a cap to an Irish lad of Gibsons age on the basis that he was resident in the English FAs jurisdiction for over two years -an appealant (either Irish FA or an opponent of Englands) may cite as best practice a ruling made against an English Rugby player (name avoids me) who attempted to play for Scotland on the basis he went to boarding school there.

In that case he was ruled inelligable as, regardless of where he slept at night and was normally resident for most of the previous five years, his legal address up until the day of his 18th birthday was his parents home back in England.

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If the loophole exists there will be those who will look to exploit it. But,as I alluded to in my post i have no idea how the proof of residency rules work.

why don't we all just wait for the official decision lads????

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

They wont do that, and I wouldnt want them to. This is purely about eligibility, not that they played for us.

Again, why should you be allowed to pick anyone from outside your national boundries?

Im not trying to make this political, but whether you agree with it or not, or recognise it or not,there are two countries on the island of Ireland. That is a fact.

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Hook, Line and whats the next word, oh ya sinker :D

By saying something stupid, its real easy to catch someone off-guard.

The fact that you started your concluding sentence with "not political" proves exactly that ;)

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Hook, Line and whats the next word, oh ya sinker :D

By saying something stupid, its real easy to catch someone off-guard.

The fact that you started your concluding sentence with "not political" proves exactly that ;)

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That was merely put there in response to posters continually referring to Northern Ireland as the Six Counties. I was only trying to avoid ambiguity. I get the impression that some people on here believe that the Republic of Ireland consists of the entire Island of Ireland.

Also, I didnt actually say "not political", in my post, I realised it was a political statement, but as has been pointed out by other posters, there is an obvious political element to this.

And im not actually sure what you think you've proved? Ive obviously missed something replying to 10 different peoples posts at the same time. Please feel free to enlighten me which cunningly placed trap I have fallen into......

And just in case I need to clarify my post, it doesnt matter to me whether they have played for Northern Ireland at underage level. This is about obeying the rules. IMO, 'Northern Nationalists' are not eligible for the Republic, for reasons outlined in several of my posts. Therefore, they shouldnt be selected.

If they are eligible, fill yer boots.

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

IMO, 'Northern Nationalists' are not eligible for the Republic, for reasons outlined in several of my posts.

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I've read most of your posts (if not all) and how you can say they're not eligible is beyond me. If you're saying it from FIFA's point of view, well, FIFA haven't ruled yet, and they currently do allow them to play for the Republic. Try not to look at it from a Nationalist's point of view; why shouldn't they be allowed to play? As far as they're concerned they are Irish. And they're entitled to Irish citizenship through birth, so IMO they're perfectly entitled to play for the Republic. They haven't just got it through some residency loophole or something FFS.

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Originally Posted by Tuff Paddy

I think you'll find that 'Northern Nationalists' as you call them - Irish citizens in my book - will continue to want to play for Ireland. Strange that.

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Im using that label in lieu of something better. I really couldnt be bothered to type 'People born in Northern Ireland that want to play football for the Republic of Ireland'.

But, good to see your interested in debate and not just knit-picking my statements when you already know what I mean.

And just to remind you, not all Nationalists want to play for the Republic of Ireland.

p.s. it wasnt actually me that originally started using the term.

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Originally Posted by jmurphyc

I've read most of your posts (if not all) and how you can say they're not eligible is beyond me. If you're saying it from FIFA's point of view, well, FIFA haven't ruled yet, and they currently do allow them to play for the Republic. Try not to look at it from a Nationalist's point of view; why shouldn't they be allowed to play? As far as they're concerned they are Irish. And they're entitled to Irish citizenship through birth, so IMO they're perfectly entitled to play for the Republic. They haven't just got it through some residency loophole or something FFS.

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Because they werent born within the FAI's juristiction, and dont have a grandparent born in the FAI's juristiction.

As in my post about 2-3 back,

FIFA rules on Dual-Citizenship are that you must meet one of the additional criteria to qualify to play. i.e. granny or residence.

FIFA have never looked into this situation, and therefore have not had a reason to question it. They are now looking at it. You should also note, that they were 'asked' by FIFA not to pick any of the players in question. This was the reason given for Tony Kane returning to the Northern Ireland U21's. They subsequently picked Darron Gibson for the full team. If that is true, (and I dont know for sure that it is), I would be surprised if FIFA didnt issue some sort of fine and/or points deduction, regardless of the outcome of this case. I am however assuming that the FAI wouldnt have picked him, if someone hadnt given them the nod.

The IFA have now queried if this is fair that another Association can select anyone from their own Associations membership.

The FAI are claiming that they can select players without meeting the additional annexe as they have the right to be considered Irish and only Irish from birth.

The IFA are claiming that they are also eligible for Northern Ireland (Dual-Citizenship), and therefore they must meet one of the additional criteria.

For the FAI to 'win', FIFA must either:

a) add a rule that dual-citizenship from birth is a 'special' case and the additional criteria doesnt apply
b) rule that having a passport from birth is enough to qualify.
c) something else along those lines.

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

FIFA have never looked into this situation, and therefore have not had a reason to question it.

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FIFA examined the situation twice in 2006, they endorsed Alex Bruce's right to represent Ireland in Jan/Feb 06, the IFA queried the decision and were told 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'." The IFA then queried the eligibility of Gibson and were given the same response in October 2006.

Pointless discussion until FIFA decide what their latest response will be, but should be interesting thereafter, as the IFA are using a purely political arguement in claiming that a large percentage of the population in the North do not have the right to be Irish only.

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Originally Posted by co. down green

FIFA examined the situation twice in 2006, they endorsed Alex Bruce's right to represent Ireland in Jan/Feb 06, the IFA queried the decision and were told 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'." The IFA then queried the eligibility of Gibson and were given the same response in October 2006.

Pointless discussion until FIFA decide what their latest response will be, but should be interesting thereafter, as the IFA are using a purely political arguement in claiming that a large percentage of the population in the North do not have the right to be Irish only.

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I think that the IFA where using a geographical arguement (i.e. you were born in Northern Ireland so you must be eligible, and if you are eligible for two teams the annex should apply), and that the FAI are using the purely political arguement.

And what is the point of a forum if not to chew the fat?

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Originally Posted by Absinthe

And just to remind you, not all Nationalists want to play for the Republic of Ireland.

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Possibly not but the vast majority probably would if given the oppertunity.

The fact that they would also play for NI is neither here nor there. A young footballer is not going to turn down international recognition no matter who it's with and all the benefits and exposure it gives his career.

I have brought this up before, and not in a joking manner, why no uproar about Northern Ireland women playing in the Republic's women team?...is this against FIFA rules?....there are a couple, Laura Hislop of Belfast comes to mind.