Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

There are 2 main clubs in Mullingar - Town and Athletic. I can never remember which is which, but one has decent support within the town, whilst the other has much less support but far better facilities. One is also in a more central location, whilst the other is on the edge of a housing estate. Again - I can never remember which is which.I

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Athletic are based a few km outside the town, similar to Longford in that way. They’re the one with great facilities
As the name suggests, Town are based in the town. Their ground is wedged into a housing estate. They’ve a decent pitch and a 5 a side all weather if memory serves me.
Afaik, neither have made any mention of going for entry into the LOI for a long time.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

If they got 1k at games from within the club, is that a problem? That's supposed to be one of the benefits of a strong community setup after all

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Mullingar Athletic say that alongside the thirty one teams they run, they have weekly coaching for an additional 200 children from six years to nine years, while they also have 725 signed up Club Members. Meaning that when you count all the associated family members and friends etc, that should provide a great community/base for decent crowds for a semi-pro team in the LOI.

While "a major part of funding" for each of the 4 phases of this €1.5m Development will be supported by a weekly club development draw with a Jackpot of up to €5,000 each week. This shows that they must also have a very progressive and committed Committee and set of volunteers running the club.

When you also add in the space available to them on their (club-owned) site, which I believe is only a couple of miles outside the town, they look to be exactly the sort of club the FAI should be encouraging to join the LOI set-up. However it is clear that the club is going in a different direction - and the best of luck to them along the way.

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Originally Posted by EalingGreen

Mullingar Athletic say that alongside the thirty one teams they run, they have weekly coaching for an additional 200 children from six years to nine years, while hey have 725 signed up Club Members. Meaning that when you count all the associated family members etc, that should provide a great community/base for decent crowds for a semi-pro team in the LOI.

While "a major part of funding" each of the 4 phases of this €1.5m Development will be supported by a weekly club development draw with a Jackpot of up to €5,000 each week. This shows that they must also have a very progressive and committed Committee and group of volunteers running the club.

When you also add in the space available to them on their (club-owned) site, which I believe is only a couple of miles outside the town, they look to be exactly the sort of club the FAI should be encouraging to join the LOI set-up. However it is clear that they're going in a different direction - and the best of luck to them along the way.

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Athletic are an excellently ran club, no doubt about it. And always have been. They probably have 2 teams at every age level. I’m not sure if Town have any underage teams at all. It might only be senior.
One thing that could hold Athletic back would be the distance out of the town. It’s not walkable from the town. Also there is a lot of bad blood between the clubs so they might have alienated half of their locality.

I am pretty sure that I was out in Mullingar Towns ground a long long time ago. It was a pity that they never made the step up.

The First Division playoff format has energised the First Division. It has delivered in giving clubs a lifeline. A two team play-off at the start of the season for the final European spot would be a high profile high octane start to the season.

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Originally Posted by legendz

A two team play-off at the start of the season for the final European spot would be a high profile high octane start to the season.

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Not a chance any club would agree to a European playoff at the start of the season. Having European prize money or not massively dictates what the playing budget for a club's squad is, so clubs will naturally only ever want the european places decided by the end of a season, and rightly so.

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Originally Posted by 2 Year Contract

Not a chance any club would agree to a European playoff at the start of the season. Having European prize money or not massively dictates what the playing budget for a club's squad is, so clubs will naturally only ever want the european places decided by the end of a season, and rightly so.

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I accept that point alright. Playoffs are like Marmite. A playoff should have a natural high profile but with the FAI Cup final being rightly the closing of the season, there is no clear calendar slot for a playoff.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

If they got 1k at games from within the club, is that a problem? That's supposed to be one of the benefits of a strong community setup after all

You could also add Kildare and maybe Wexford too (can't quite remember) who started off with good crowds but they faded when the team weren't great.

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The point I was trying to make is despite the fact Cabo had the advantage of so many members they still couldn't make it work whereas Kerry have for whatever reason greatly appealed to your average football fan in the county.

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Originally Posted by EatYerGreens

There are 2 main clubs in Mullingar - Town and Athletic. I can never remember which is which, but one has decent support within the town, whilst the other has much less support but far better facilities. One is also in a more central location, whilst the other is on the edge of a housing estate. Again - I can never remember which is which.

I don't think it's reasonable for @Outspoken to claim that "Mullingar will never have an LOI club". Both Town and Athletic were doggedly tryinng to get into the LOI back in 2002 when Kildare got awarded their place. Mullingar Town played in the old Eircom U21 league 20yrs ago as a stepping stone to full senior participation. At the time the club was bankrolled by Jim Moore - a wealthy local man with a bg building firm in London, who shipped over a load of players from England and spent more than €100,000 on the club to show they could work at LOI level. If memory serves me right this means that Town were the club with the better resources but the weaker local support. There has long been bad bloody between the 2 clubs in Mullingar, and Moore pumping money into Town only exasperated that.

There is no reason why Mullingar couldn't make an LOI club viable. It certainly has the population, and as a former 'garrison town' it has a longstanding interest in football/soccer too. Local footballng politics would appear to be the main barrier tbh.

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I'm well aware of all of this, I'm in Mullingar on a regular basis. The FAI not allowing Mullingar in when they had that backing was crazy then again would he have stayed for the long haul, who's to know but I very much feel like the boat was missed for them to every become a Loi side.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

If they got 1k at games from within the club, is that a problem? That's supposed to be one of the benefits of a strong community setup after all

You could also add Kildare and maybe Wexford too (can't quite remember) who started off with good crowds but they faded when the team weren't great.

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Are there any football clubs anywhere who don't see attendances fall when they perform badly, and increase when they do well (capacity allowing) ? I can remember the decade when Ramgers were rampant in Scotland and it was fairly easy to get tickets for Celtic games, for example.

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Originally Posted by outspoken

The point I was trying to make is despite the fact Cabo had the advantage of so many members they still couldn't make it work whereas Kerry have for whatever reason greatly appealed to your average football fan in the county.

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Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.

Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.

Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum

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Mervue and Salthill were promoted and bar Mervue's final season both were generally crap?

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Originally Posted by outspoken

Mervue and Salthill were promoted and bar Mervue's final season both were generally crap?

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No no no, things were going swimmingly.

I think we needed to expand it and allow all 10 Galway junior clubs to be promoted to the first division to build momentum across the city. These Galway United crowds are far too big at present and need to be split 10 ways.

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Originally Posted by outspoken

Mervue and Salthill were promoted and bar Mervue's final season both were generally crap?

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Originally Posted by Buller

No no no, things were going swimmingly.

I think we needed to expand it and allow all 10 Galway junior clubs to be promoted to the first division to build momentum across the city. These Galway United crowds are far too big at present and need to be split 10 ways.

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I don't know how many times this has been mentioned, but every time people ignore the fact that (a) they didn't really earn promotion because there still wasn't a proper pyramid in place - being the best of three other teams who also shouldn't have been elected to the third tier doesn't really count- and (b) one or other of them would have been relegated every single year from 2010 to 2013 had there, again, been a proper pyramid in place.

And Salthill weren't really promoted at all in fact - Kildare County withdrew and Salthill, who had been down to play them in a play-off, were elected to the league.

I'm not saying every club that gets promoted in a proper system will do well btw. But clubs who are made up a couple of months before the start of the season and dumped into the First Division to struggle will tend to do a lot worse that those who build momentum (and improve facilities, etc) through proper progress, which is the point of a pyramid.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't know how many times this has been mentioned, but every time people ignore the fact that (a) they didn't really earn promotion because there still wasn't a proper pyramid in place - being the best of three other teams who also shouldn't have been elected to the third tier doesn't really count- and (b) one or other of them would have been relegated every single year from 2010 to 2013 had there, again, been a proper pyramid in place.

And Salthill weren't really promoted at all in fact - Kildare County withdrew and Salthill, who had been down to play them in a play-off, were elected to the league.

I'm not saying every club that gets promoted in a proper system will do well btw. But clubs who are made up a couple of months before the start of the season and dumped into the First Division to struggle will tend to do a lot worse that those who build momentum (and improve facilities, etc) through proper progress, which is the point of a pyramid.

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Yeah point taken but they're both very well run clubs who would have no doubt got there on their own accord. Far better run than Galway Utd entities before them at least!

They may well have gotten to the second tier on their own, sure. But they wouldn't have lasted, so what harm? Though if they were far better run than Galway (and in many ways they probably were alright), then why protect Galway? Because they got there first? That makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

They may well have gotten to the second tier on their own, sure. But they wouldn't have lasted, so what harm? Though if they were far better run than Galway (and in many ways they probably were alright), then why protect Galway? Because they got there first? That makes no sense.

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To grow crowds and expand reach, which wouldn't happen in a million years in a small town with splitting a small pie.

Is a badly run club or a well run club more likely to achieve that though?

Again, I think there's a fixation on Galway as a city because of Mervue/Salthill, which is a bit of an anomaly for the reasons I've given. Are you going to grow crowds and expand reach with a Kerry side as bad as they currently are? Would they not have been better proving themselves first, building momentum, improving facilities, having a bit of success, etc?

As a general plan, I think that's far more likely to succeed than the way things have currently happened.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Yep, but my point is that given they're so uncompetitive, crowds will surely dwindle like at Cabo.

Again showing the folly of just making up a club and dumping them into the First Division. Far better for a side to be promoted into it; they should be far more likely to be competitive and can build on their momentum

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Well yes, the initial plan was doubtless to apply for the third tier, but with the First Division vacancy arising from the Bray/Cabinteely merger, and three seasons at U19 level, they can hardly be blamed for deciding to step up. 15-20 points, which is still a realistic target, would have probably been the maximum return that could have been expected at the start of the season, and if the crowds stabilise between 600-800, it'll be at a more sustainable level than the early sell-outs.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Is a badly run club or a well run club more likely to achieve that though?

Again, I think there's a fixation on Galway as a city because of Mervue/Salthill, which is a bit of an anomaly for the reasons I've given. Are you going to grow crowds and expand reach with a Kerry side as bad as they currently are? Would they not have been better proving themselves first, building momentum, improving facilities, having a bit of success, etc?

As a general plan, I think that's far more likely to succeed than the way things have currently happened.

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Its a fixation because its a really clear case study that splitting a small pie isn't a great idea and surely won't grow it.