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When you use “they”, I can’t help but feel you are referring to posters here, including myself? As individuals who are trying to justify racism? I hope not.
Maybe I’m naive but I happen to think that very few people are actually racist but that a lot of people say very stupid things. I tend to give the benefit of the doubt and let the punishment fit the crime.
But maybe I’m wrong and Willy is just a mad racist.
Lads this is very simple. I know this is a forum for debate but this is not a debatable subject.
"The advantage of an African player is that he's cheap when you get him and ready to fight, but football isn't just about that. It's also about technique, intelligence, and discipline. You need to have it all."
That's a abhorrent statement no matter what way you try spin it, especially when he adds the Nordic part to make sure we knew what he meant. How do you think Bazunu, Idah, Obafemi, Ogbene, Ebosele or any young Irish lad of African descent would feel knowing their manager made that statement.
It's wrong and anyone defending it is simply wrong
Just to be clear, I’ve used “clearly wrong” and “brutal” to describe his comments.
And that's all that needs to be said here Stu, there's no different shades of grey. This is not a man we want in charge of our players.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
I actually didn't know about these comments before today, or maybe I did and forgot, but either way he can fcuk off
I understand that the apologized and offered context but the comments in the first place clearly came a bit too naturally to him given how truly stereotypical they were. I'm sure there is a broad spectrum of racism that the views of some white Frenchman of his age might align to but the fact that he made it onto that spectrum at all is concerning. Graeme Sounness has been called out for referring to the physical or broader non cognitive traits of specific black players in his punditry career. Commenting on a specific player is bad but the sweeping nature of Sagnol's comments is a little more informative about him in my view.
You dismissed it, sure, but you didn't make any argument. That hardly counts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Maybe such stereotyped scouting of African footballers does come from racism. Does it make Sagnol racist for complaining about the results of that kind of scouting?
I'm also not making the argument that scouts today have a typical African player in mind. The comments were ten years ago and were based on scouting maybe 20 years ago. That's a long time in football. There's probably a similar reason why Brazilian players tend towards the technical exciting attacking player and away from the rugged centre-half type. Is that racist too? Brazil is a huge place remember.
Okacha and Weah were great players. They were also only two players. There's others of course too but I don't think it's a big enough data sample to base a case on. Similarly the fact we produced Wes Hoolahan doesn't negate the fact there's more than a kernel of truth in the stereotypical player we produce.
I'm not sure I want to get into this discussion at all - at best, the comments by Sagnol were very clumsy, and I had quite enough of Kenny fumbling through press conferences - but I think this is an important point. Stereotypes about Irish players are really about our historical coaching and youth development infrastructure, not our ethnicity or genetic predispositions. That's entirely consistent with the reported explanation Sagnol later gave. I don't much like judging people on one comment they made and didn't double down on. It's just not a very reliable way to judge someone's character.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Oh - bloody bullsh*tQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Wes Hoolahan is the only skillful player Ireland ever produced ? - Really ?
We have produced some of the world's most skillful players on this island
Off the top of my head -
Johnny Giles
Liam Brady
George Best
Steve Heighway
Danny Blanchflower
Charlie Hurley
Johnny Carey
Pat Jennings
Shay Brennan
Noel Cantwell
Denis Irwin
Con Martin
Ronnie Whelan
Paul McGrath
Kevin Sheedy
Billy Whelan
Bill Lacey
Stop talking nonsense
Particularly coming from a player who had significant career success with players of African descent too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
But of all the places (again making a regional generalisation too) why cite Scandinavia? Are they more renowned for their footballing intelligence or their Aryan whiteness? Because if I was to make a footballing generalisation I'd pick southern European, CEE or LatAm players for their footballing intelligence over the Scandies all day long.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Sagnol's comments were a conscious act - racists just can't help themselves. No matter how much they try to contain their poisonous views, racists inevitably let it spill out into the open.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Nonsense - stereotypes about Irish players are rooted in the imperialist outlook of the hierarchy of the English FA and the British media.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
Sagnol's 'clarification' was a clumsy attempt 1. to justify the comments, - and 2. to save his f*cking job (and, like with Bolton and Lennon, rather than sack Sagnol, the club did it in a completely ham-fisted way that compounded the racist slurs uttered by Sagnol).Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
In 2017 Sagnol was the favourite to get the job as Ghana manager - when it became public knowledge that he was in for the job Sagnol had an opportunity to address his comments, make a proper apology and commit to supporting anti-racism campaigns (something which you would do if you were opposed to racism and made a clumsy comment) - yet Sagnol would not utter a single word, didn't offer a single apology or justification - he attempted to tough it out. It was only after a huge outcry in Ghana that the Ghanaian FA dropped Sagnol like a hot potato and claimed that he was never in the frame for the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
The guy is a racist - and, like Lennon, shouldn't be anywhere close to being considered by the FAI.
Doesn't seem like we're any further forward in finding out the identity of the new man after the weekend game. Dan McDonnell this morning not ruling out the prospect that Canham may have lost out on the replacement previously identified - but that would make Canham's own position somewhat questionable if he can't deliver on what he promised at the press conference a few weeks ago.
Probably, El Amigo John O'Shea !
The whole racism everywhere is tiresome. Screeching and wailing to get offended on behalf of other people to show how righteous they are. Sagnol explained himself. I can't see any issue with him becoming Ireland manager. I think it'll be Poyet though.
I agree with this view,Quote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
How anyone can bring the debate down to "he is a Racist" with 100% certainty based on comments that a)African players are cheaper then euro players (they were) b) are they less intelligent in a footballing sense then scandinavian players who benefit from far greater levels of coaching (probably yes) are starting from a position that they are looking for offence
Ive no idea if the guy is a racist or not but ive no basis for deciding it based on the above
The comments were 10 years ago, apologised for and not dissimilar from the kind of lazy stereotypes heard on RTE panels every world cup and throughout sports media at the time about African teams.
Sagnol's chosen captain at the time was Senegal player Lamine Sane who accepted the apology, viewed his words as "clumsy" rather than having racial intent and defended his character.
If the apology was accepted as genuine by the African players he was working with on a daily basis at the time then I'm not sure why Irish people a decade later should believe otherwise.Quote:
Sagnol's captain at Bordeaux is Senegal international Lamine Sane, who called Sagnol's comments "clumsy" before defending him, as did club president Jean-Louis Triaud."He doesn't have any twisted ideas. He believes in all the black players in the team," Sane told French radio. "We believe in him and we hope to go very far with him."
Bordeaux forward Henri Saivet, who is black, told RMC radio that Sagnol apologized.
"We all know pertinently well that the coach is not a racist," Saivet said.
I must say it's disappointing to come in here this morning and see how many are still willing to defend Sagnol. Do better lads
But Razor, there is clearly a lot more context to his comments that were added subsequently. I suppose whether you choose to believe him or not is down to you. As a few have said (and all, I think, in the context of his initial comments being bad), it gives a reason to pause and think about whether he is racist and whether that is reasonable as a categorical statement - which i personally happen to think is more constructive in the current climate than doubling down and calling on others to do better. Should Mane and Saivet have done better?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
His own players from African descent and players who played alongside him from African descent dismissed it as being racist, accepted his apology and it was just him being clumsy with his words, but Foot.ie(who have just learned of this) knows better, doesn't accept this and has declared he is 100% racist. You couldn't make it up. Do better lads.
If Lamine Sane & Henri Saivet have accepted Sagnol's apology and moved on and Saivet himself stating "we all know pertinently well that the coach is not a racist" - I'm happy to follow their lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfinator
Sane & Saivet know more about Sagnol's character than a few posters on this forum.
I'd be inclined to give him benefit of the doubt except the comparison he made was to Scandinavians. I think that's pretty telling.
Umm - I presume you mean "dismissed it as not being racist"?Quote:
Originally Posted by LurcherLover
Dwight Yorke also said that Ron Atkinson isn't a racist despite him being caught on air referring to Desailly 'what is known in some schools as a ****ing lazy, thick n****r'.
Sorry, yes dismissed it as not being racist.Quote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Ah OK, yes that definitely means that Sagnol is racist. You should of said. Can someone contact the relevant media outlets and inform them that Sagnols friends, colleagues etc who come from Africa, or African descent and came out to back him as not being racist, are actually wrong and that Razors left peg on foot.ie said that Dwight Yorke said that Ron Atkinson isn't racist but he actually is, so that also means that Sagnol is racist also. You might want to mention that Razor was only made aware of this yesterday.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
Lads, calm down. Razors is welcome to draw the conclusions he has, as is everyone else. Post your reasoning if you like, but cut out the aggro.
You know what my point was, but you and some others seem comfortable with lazy stereotypical old racist tropes being thrown around and wouldn't have a problem with someone who think like that in charge of our national team. I didn't want Lennon because of the allegations against him of threatening a woman either. Call me old fashioned but I have high moral standards for this sort of thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by LurcherLover
You bring up those that were willing to defend Sagnol, what about the likes of Patrick Vieira and others who were disgusted by his comments
Honestly I think it's disgusting to even compare a serial offending vile individual using racial slurs with a man who said something open to interpretation thoughtlessly one time, apologised immediately and had that apology accepted by everyone around him. In your own words "Do Better".Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
There is a big difference between what Atkinson said and what Sagnol said but i get the point you are making about the merits of words of defense. Rather than hang on the comparison to young Scandinavian players as an indicator as to whether he is or is not racist, it matters that his comments were referring to young African players and gives credence to his later clarifications. If he had initially said "black players", then game on as far as i am concerned and hard to worm your way out of that kind of statement.
On another note, that last sentence - you are basically accusing posters here of being racist too. That's not fair at all, Razor.
edit: Razor's comment was deleted
I mean, they could be wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
What a stupid comment (from here). African players aren't expensive when you sign them (from an African club). What's the problem there? (New Caledonia isn't even in Africa!) Are Everton fans racist when they sing about how little they paid for Séamus Coleman?Quote:
Lens coach Antoine Kombouare, who was born in New Caledonia, also was offended. "Let's make things clear: This is not a case of him being clumsy. He's really messed up," Kombouare said. "What he said is serious. It's unacceptable. Explaining that an African player is cheaper ... I felt humiliated and hurt."
Sagnol clarified fairly well when he said -
I also like this comment from Stephen Fry on offence -Quote:
When I spoke about the African [player] who is cheaper and ready for combat, I simply meant to talk about the young African player arriving in Europe with all of his will to win, and often to escape from a precarious situation. Then, since we were in a debate about football, the intelligence I spoke of was obviously related to tactical intelligence. The forming of young players in Africa, probably because of a lack of financial means, or [lack] of infrastructure, isn't always as complete as what's available in Europe.
Now if Sagnol had said he didn't like black players because they were thick, that would have been a different matter. But that's not what he said.Quote:
It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that." As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more than a whine. "I find that offensive." It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I am offended by that." Well, so ****ing what.
I deleted the last post Stu because I wrote in anger, but I do think there is a hint of truth to it with some.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Looking over the thread, no one is defending racism and to regard anyone as racist or defending it for merely pointing out what many black players close to Sagnol have said, is ridiculous. Saying that anyone defending it is just wrong is ridiculous. Also, to try and label someone as racist if they say there is a stereotypical African player is ridiculous. Is there a stereotypical south American player? If I think there is, am I racist? Are those black players who accepted his apology for what it is racist? It's almost humorous how someone who read an article yesterday about something that happened 10yrs ago, can be so righteous on the matter, to a point were they are labelling someone who disagrees with them the same term. Honest question, if an African friend of Sagnol who played with him and is still currently very close to him, to a point were their families regularly holiday together, told you he wasn't racist, would you disagree with him and tell him he's wrong? Because.......
RTE news : O'Shea content to 'wait and see' what happens next
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2024/...-happens-next/
O'Shea saying let's see what happens when asked about his future. If he knew he absolutely wouldn't be getting the job wouldn't he just come out and say something like " I'd love to do this full time in future, but the FAI have made it clear they have their man for April".
Interestingly those comments wouldn't preclude him being involved in the new regime as an assistant or coach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
It's mental that we are this long into it and we haven't got a clue what's going on. It's either gonna be the greatest reveal ever or the biggest let downQuote:
Originally Posted by backstothewall
Because his wait and see had nothing to do with the Ireland and was in response to what he'll be doing after this stint as caretaker.
They asked him what's next after Tuesday and said he'll be seeing his family. Then they asked him "and in football" which he said let's wait and see.
Since he walked away from Birmingham to get into management rather than be a coach then I doubt he's got nothing lined job wise and will be waiting to see what offers come his way.
He was asked in the post match if he wants the job and he said ask me after Tuesday. Seems he thinks he still has a bit of a chance, which I absolutely didn't think 3 weeks ago when he was appointedQuote:
Originally Posted by JR89
The perfect answer really. Short and sweet without any unnecessary waffling on like Kenny would. Even if he actually knew that X manager has signed a contract to start in April give them a short and nothing answer. Treat them like mushrooms.Quote:
Originally Posted by Razors left peg
We've been treated like mushrooms since November :)Quote:
Originally Posted by JR89
This is nonsense - and it is a justification that allows racist poison to fester in society.Quote:
Originally Posted by weldoninhio
And this is for others defending Sagnol as well
Sagnol's 'explanation' was an attempt to justify racist comments.
As I pointed out before - if Sagnol was not a racist he would have held up his hand, accepted that his comments were racist and deeply offensive, apologised for his comments, and then would have advocated for anti-racism campaigns. He did not do this, even after his own former team mates condemned his comments - and that is most telling. Even when he had an opportunity to get the Ghana coaching job he could not bring himself to address the issue.
He has failed over and over again to withdraw his comments and still has not apologised in any way, shape of form. It would be an utter disgrace if the FAI appointed Sagnol and it should not happen.