Gavin Bazunu G Standard Liege (loan from Southampton) b.2002

He can't have made that many good saves against Norwich given four of the six shots on target went in. And I think the deflection does help - I'm not sure it was going wide (hence not being credited as an og), in which case he should have been going full length for it anyway, but the deflection took it back towards him.

And I will ignore you of ignoring the stats - because you openly did. Soccer isn't like American football, sure - but that doesn't mean that the stats are meaningless. And they show that he's conceding way more than would reasonably be expected even taking the defence into account. You can analyse the goals as you want and read into them what you want (were the shots out of reach of any PL goalkeeper? Really?), but I'm happy to go with the big data on this one. And as I started this discussion - your defence of Bazunu is very similar to the defence of Travers we heard after the 9-0 against Liverpool, when people were saying that it was all the defence's fault, and he couldn't be blamed for any of the goals really. It's just bias.

And he's saving way fewer shots than a wide variety of other keepers. That's the Southampton forum view of him too - gets beaten far too easily, far too often. This from guys who are watching him every week - they want him to make a couple of saves, to keep the side in a match. But it doesn't happen.

The French and Dutch will have noted Bazunu's continuing vulnerability to long range shots.

Damn this website. I actually dreamt of Bazunu last night. In some strange circumstance that I can't remember I was giving Shay Given a lift to Dublin airport and we were chatting about him.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Damn this website. I actually dreamt of Bazunu last night. In some strange circumstance that I can't remember I was giving Shay Given a lift to Dublin airport and we were chatting about him.

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Was Shay Given still small looking for a Goal-Keeper ? !

Yes, I made him sit in the back.

Just on the second goal against Sunderland, he can see the attacker taking a strike, but I believe he is blinded by two defenders in seeing the actual contact with the ball and subsequently the direction/ trajectory of the shot. If so, he is reacting to the deflection not the initial shot. The deflection spins the ball away from his reach making the save difficult but maybe he could be more on his toes/ alert here, there is a slight foot adjustment between deflection and dive, and I think a top tier goalie saves that deflection. Perhaps his footwork is a broader work in progress for him, see the third goal, but overall, his reaction speed was a bit sluggish on the day. He can do better.

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Originally Posted by Demesne Lad

The French and Dutch will have noted Bazunu's continuing vulnerability to long range shots.

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They'll have noted Ireland's vulnerability to them in general and the apparently conscious decision by the manager not to take action to resolve the problem. Any team that does 10 minutes opposition analysis on us will have noted that.

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Originally Posted by ifk101

Just on the second goal against Sunderland, he can see the attacker taking a strike, but I believe he is blinded by two defenders in seeing the actual contact with the ball and subsequently the direction/ trajectory of the shot. If so, he is reacting to the deflection not the initial shot. The deflection spins the ball away from his reach making the save difficult but maybe he could be more on his toes/ alert here, there is a slight foot adjustment between deflection and dive, and I think a top tier goalie saves that deflection. Perhaps his footwork is a broader work in progress for him, see the third goal, but overall, his reaction speed was a bit sluggish on the day. He can do better.

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I think in general he's vulnerable those low daisy cutters. Maybe it's footwork or maybe it's his reach...

I know he will start v France but if either of you were manager would you start Travers?

No.

I stand by my view that all 3 are good but have their weaknesses. I think Bazunu is a very confident / mentally strong young lad and very capable. He was in a rut for his club when we played France and he had a very mature performance.

I think Kelleher is as vulnerable to shots from distance as Baz is and I think his positioning is questionable. Take away the shoot out glory I think his career highlights flatter him a bit. Signs of brilliance mixed with evidence of deficiencies too. But like Baz, a really confident young goalkeeper. For me though he has just had too few matches.

Travers looks lost at corners and crosses from free kicks. He's the most frustrating of the 3 imho, with his physique he should be more imposing.

Bazunu still for me, but I'm not without concerns.

Interesting
I too would start Gav because his experience alone will be vital
But I wouldn't hesitate to drop him for the Dutch game if he is poor in Paris

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

He can't have made that many good saves against Norwich given four of the six shots on target went in.

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And here you go with the stats again - did you see the game?

There were 4/5 occasions where Norwich broke away and Bazunu blocked a pass/cross to a wide open attacker - and several other occasions when he forced attackers wide and cut out their attempts to get the ball across the box. He actually played very well in the Norwich game.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

And I will ignore you of ignoring the stats - because you openly did. Soccer isn't like American football, sure - but that doesn't mean that the stats are meaningless. And they show that he's conceding way more than would reasonably be expected even taking the defence into account. You can analyse the goals as you want and read into them what you want (were the shots out of reach of any PL goalkeeper? Really?), but I'm happy to go with the big data on this one. And as I started this discussion - your defence of Bazunu is very similar to the defence of Travers we heard after the 9-0 against Liverpool, when people were saying that it was all the defence's fault, and he couldn't be blamed for any of the goals really. It's just bias.

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1. I am not talking about Travers - who is a decent goalie - but nowhere close in ability to Bazunu is. If you go back to the 1970s Travers would have been a major upgrade over Mick Kearns and Paddy Roche but in the current situation he is the Irish number 3 for a reason.

2. I am not ignoring the stats - I am looking beyond the stats to see what the problem is - you refuse to do so. I challenge you to take your head out of the stats and go and look at the goal highlights of the five games from this season - it will take about you about 10 mins - and outline how many goals from the 12 conceded that he would have reasonably been expected to save - I have one - from the game against Sunderland.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

And he's saving way fewer shots than a wide variety of other keepers. That's the Southampton forum view of him too - gets beaten far too easily, far too often. This from guys who are watching him every week - they want him to make a couple of saves, to keep the side in a match. But it doesn't happen.

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Are you seriously suggesting that we should take note of a fans forum where the people posting there had their minds made up about Bazunu the day after he signed for the club - they wanted an experienced goalkeeper (they actually wanted Nick Pope who had just been relegated with Burnley) and all they could see what a kid who had played in League 1 the season before. They have been on his back ever since - he doesn't stop shots, his hands are too soft, he bats the ball into the path of oncoming attackers - yada, yada, yada.

Does he save fewer shots - of course he does - but a significant reason for that is the inability of the Southampton defenders to get out and make an effort to close down the striker and block the shots - the attacker has so much time to pick his spot that it is more difficult for Bazunu than it should be. If a defender pressures the attacker he has far less time and has to rush the shot, making it easier to save - and by the way - as others have pointed out - the Irish defence have the same problem because Kenny is a moron and it wouldn't, and hasn't, made any difference to who was in goal - Bazunu or Kelleher (or anyone else for that matter).

A goalkeeper can only do so much - and a young inexperienced goalkeeper (which Bazunu is - as is Kelleher) needs more help from his defence than a keeper with years of experience. Goalkeepers can lose confidence and when they do they second guess themselves and are slower to react to situations. Last season clearly impacted Bazunu and Selles was right to pull him - for no other reason than to protect him. The number one priority for Southampton this summer should have been to get a working defensive system in place and the players needed to implement it if necessary. As has been pointed out - in that respect Martin was the wrong man for the managers job - but one thing that Martin has made clear is that the defensive problems at Southampton are not down to Bazunu, but to the people in front of him - and I will take the word the team's coach over fans whining on a forum any day.

We will have to see how this season will pan out for Bazunu, but we are very fortunate to have two very good young goalkeepers who, if they continue to progress (and Kelleher needs games) will serve Ireland very well for the next 15/20 years.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

1. I am not talking about Travers - who is a decent goalie - but nowhere close in ability to Bazunu is.

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I'm not talking about Travers either - certainly not in that context anyway. I'm talking about his performance in the 9-0 against Liverpool, which posters on here (you can go back over his thread and see) defended by saying it was the defence's fault and he wasn't to blame for any of the goals. Same as your argument in defence of Bazunu's start to the season. That's the comparison.

It's why I'm wary of posters who say things like "stats are pretty much irrelevant". They're not. In fact, they're independent, without the green tint you inevitably get on forums like this. Because the stats explained why Bournemouth went straight out and bought Neto while posters here were blaming the Bournemouth defence. I don't pay much heed to the 0.01 level of accuracy claimed by xG or PSxG, but I do pay attention to a stat like -16 PSxG, which was Bazunu's stat last season.

You say that the Southampton defence was so terrible as to render stats irrelevant, and while they absolutely have their car crash moments, the reality is last year Southampton faced fewer shots on target than any team in the league bar United, Brighton, Arsenal, Newcastle and Man City - ie five of the top six. That's not the performance of a defence that was so terrible they render goalkeeping stats irrelevant. It's a huge statistical anomaly - as is Southampton's save rate (53%, against 61% for the next lowest and about 70% for the median)

Had Southampton fans made up their minds about Bazunu on the day he signed? Some probably had, others hadn't. But so what? He wouldn't be the first player ever to win fans around had he done so. The fact is he hasn't done so. The criticisms of weak goalkeeping (like the third against Sunderland, where a stronger hand should have kept the ball out), poor save rates (as shown), blunders (that header against was it Palace that went right through him? Or a couple of shots which went under him despite getting a full hand to them. And this season not helped by starting off with as bad a howler as you'll see in pre-season against Göztepe). So when you say "Are you seriously suggesting that we should take note of a fans forum?" - I'd say, yes, I am. I'll take into account that they're a ranty bunch, but these are the guys watching week-in-week-out. Their views should be taken into account.

i still don't understand how 25 mins into the Sunderland game Sunderland, 2-0 up after 6 mins, were XG =0.33!

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'm not talking about Travers either - certainly not in that context anyway. I'm talking about his performance in the 9-0 against Liverpool, which posters on here (you can go back over his thread and see) defended by saying it was the defence's fault and he wasn't to blame for any of the goals. Same as your argument in defence of Bazunu's start to the season. That's the comparison.

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Only relevant if I had mentioned Travers - there is no comparison between the two goalies.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

It's why I'm wary of posters who say things like "stats are pretty much irrelevant". They're not. In fact, they're independent, without the green tint you inevitably get on forums like this. Because the stats explained why Bournemouth went straight out and bought Neto while posters here were blaming the Bournemouth defence. I don't pay much heed to the 0.01 level of accuracy claimed by xG or PSxG, but I do pay attention to a stat like -16 PSxG, which was Bazunu's stat last season.

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Now you are plucking a quote out of context - stats serve a purpose - but they are not the be all and end all of everything.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

You say that the Southampton defence was so terrible as to render stats irrelevant, and while they absolutely have their car crash moments, the reality is last year Southampton faced fewer shots on target than any team in the league bar United, Brighton, Arsenal, Newcastle and Man City - ie five of the top six. That's not the performance of a defence that was so terrible they render goalkeeping stats irrelevant. It's a huge statistical anomaly - as is Southampton's save rate (53%, against 61% for the next lowest and about 70% for the median)

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So now you are taking your stats and extrapolating from the stats that the Southampton defence wasn't that bad because they had fewer shots on target against them than all other teams apart from five of the top six - really is stretching the imagination. Southampton's defence was the worst in the PL last season - and has been one of the worst in the Championship so far this season.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Had Southampton fans made up their minds about Bazunu on the day he signed? Some probably had, others hadn't. But so what? He wouldn't be the first player ever to win fans around had he done so. The fact is he hasn't done so.

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He hasn't done so because he hasn't had the chance - they were atrocious last season.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The criticisms of weak goalkeeping (like the third against Sunderland, where a stronger hand should have kept the ball out),

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Bazunu was unsighted - and at full stretch - the ball bounced over his hand. Could he have done better - possibly - but the problem was caused by the defenders standing off the Sunderland player and allowing him to set up and pick his spot.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

poor save rates (as shown), blunders (that header against was it Palace that went right through him? Or a couple of shots which went under him despite getting a full hand to them. And this season not helped by starting off with as bad a howler as you'll see in pre-season against Göztepe). So when you say "Are you seriously suggesting that we should take note of a fans forum?" - I'd say, yes, I am. I'll take into account that they're a ranty bunch, but these are the guys watching week-in-week-out. Their views should be taken into account.

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Does Bazunu make mistakes - yes he does - as does every goalkeeper. It is far easier to pick holes in the play of a goalkeeper than any other player on the pitch. And Bazunu was poor last season - in a very poor Southampton team where he was basically abandoned by his defence.

So you want to take on board the ranting of fans who were on his back from the day he signed (because they wanted Nick Pope) - but you choose to ignore the comments of his manager who knows what he can do and who knows whose fault it is that the team is conceding goals.

I challenged you to go and take a look at goal highlights of the five games and twelve goals he has conceded this season and come back here and explain which goals he was at fault for letting in, that the defence didn't cause the problem in the first place. I suspect that you haven't done it - or if you have, you realise that apart from a couple where he might have done a bit better - most of the goals were not his fault - and you won't admit it.

Bazunu is a good goalkeeper - in my view the best goalkeeper in the Championship. He is still learning his craft and he will get better. But the reality is that a goalkeeper is only as good as his defence - and at the moment the Southampton defence is utter sh*te - and until Martin sorts it they will continue to ship goals.

I will repeat - we are very fortunate to have Bazunu and Kelleher (and Travers as well) as the Irish keepers and they will serve Ireland well over the next 15/20 years (and Cahill might come good as well). I am old enough to remember Ireland plucking goalies out of the old third division in England. But when you are playing a young 21 year old in goals then your defence needs to help him out - at international level as well as at club level. The Irish defenders need to shut down the long-range shots that keep coming in on the goalies, not stand around looking at one another (and that is on Stephen Kenny).

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Only relevant if I had mentioned Travers - there is no comparison between the two goalies.

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Who's making a comparison between the keepers? My original point was to liken the blanket defence of Bazunu to the blanket defence Travers got at the time of the 9-0. Which Bournemouth didn't agree with.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

So now you are taking your stats and extrapolating from the stats that the Southampton defence wasn't that bad because they had fewer shots on target against them than all other teams apart from five of the top six - really is stretching the imagination.

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Is it stretching the imagination? Why? Do bad defences give up relatively few chances?

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

He hasn't done so because he hasn't had the chance - they were atrocious last season.

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On the contrary - that gives him lots of chances. As Stutts has said, there's been games where he could have come away having kept them in it, but he never did.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Bazunu was unsighted - and at full stretch - the ball bounced over his hand. Could he have done better - possibly - but the problem was caused by the defenders standing off the Sunderland player and allowing him to set up and pick his spot.

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I'll just note pretty much every other poster here has said he should have done better for the third. You're in a big minority on that one.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

So you want to take on board the ranting of fans who were on his back from the day he signed (because they wanted Nick Pope) - but you choose to ignore the comments of his manager who knows what he can do and who knows whose fault it is that the team is conceding goals.

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I don't expect the Southampton manager to come out and slate his keeper to be fair. I'm never too worried what a manager says in a press conference because they're so choreographed to avoid saying anything controversial.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

I challenged you to go and take a look at goal highlights of the five games and twelve goals he has conceded this season and come back here and explain which goals he was at fault for letting in, that the defence didn't cause the problem in the first place. I suspect that you haven't done it - or if you have, you realise that apart from a couple where he might have done a bit better - most of the goals were not his fault - and you won't admit it.

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I've had a brief look and there's a fair few of the kind that you probably can't do much about, but there's one too many long-range drives and a couple where a stronger hand could lead to a better outcome. The defence may cause a problem in the first place but that doesn't mean Bazunu wasn't at fault too. And again, I'm happy to put a bit of faith here in the big data stats that have him as -3 PSxG this year, which is not a good stat and measures exactly what you're talking about there. It's far more neutral than an Irish person watching an Irish player and deciding everyone else is at fault.

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Originally Posted by Jolly Red Giant

Bazunu is a good goalkeeper - in my view the best goalkeeper in the Championship. He is still learning his craft and he will get better. But the reality is that a goalkeeper is only as good as his defence - and at the moment the Southampton defence is utter sh*te - and until Martin sorts it they will continue to ship goals.

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The first part looks optimistic at present. The second is not in dispute. The third I fundamentally disagree with, for reasons given above. A keeper is part of a defence and while he would benefit from protection, he can (and in this case has) perform poorly on his own accord too.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Who's making a comparison between the keepers? My original point was to liken the blanket defence of Bazunu to the blanket defence Travers got at the time of the 9-0. Which Bournemouth didn't agree with.

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This is getting a bit tedious - but here goes

Did I make any comments about Travers on here - no

Did I make a blanket defence of Bazunu - no

What I have done is defend Bazunu from what I see as unfair criticism of a good, young (important word here) goalkeeper playing behind a bad defence.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Is it stretching the imagination? Why? Do bad defences give up relatively few chances?

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Southampton got relegated last season with 25 points - 11 points from safety. They had 12 points after 14 games before they sacked Hassenhuttl and hired that idiot Jones - when things went completely south. The Southampton defence was panned as being atrociously bad, by commentators, by pundits and by their own fans. Furthermore - I have repeatedly stated that Bazunu was poor last season - hardly surprising - most keepers in relegated teams play poorly.

My comments throughout this thread are based on what has happened this season so far - 12 goals conceded so far - and almost all of them down to terrible defending from the Southampton defence and midfield.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

On the contrary - that gives him lots of chances. As Stutts has said, there's been games where he could have come away having kept them in it, but he never did.

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Again - not talking about last season - I am talking about his performance this season

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I'll just note pretty much every other poster here has said he should have done better for the third. You're in a big minority on that one.

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Everyone is entitled to their opinion - but all five goals resulted from very poor Southampton defending - the third goal because the defenders backed away from the shooter and let him pick his spot. I felt that Bazunu should have done better for the fifth goal - but there is zero reason to single out Bazunu as the problem. Southampton had 70% possession - let allowed 18 shots on goal - 10 of which were on target - none of that is Bazunu's fault.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't expect the Southampton manager to come out and slate his keeper to be fair. I'm never too worried what a manager says in a press conference because they're so choreographed to avoid saying anything controversial.

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Clearly you didn't watch the video - Martin wasn't speaking at a press conference - he was speaking at a packed fans forum where he spent well over an hour answering questions - and he repeatedly defended Bazunu, saying that Bazunu bears no responsibility for the problems with the Southampton team - and then he slated the defence. So answer me this - if he wasn't going to say anything controversial - why did he defend Bazunu in front of a couple of hundred Southampton fans who want him out of the team - and at the same time put the blame of the problems firmly at the feet of the rest of the team?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I've had a brief look and there's a fair few of the kind that you probably can't do much about, but there's one too many long-range drives and a couple where a stronger hand could lead to a better outcome. The defence may cause a problem in the first place but that doesn't mean Bazunu wasn't at fault too. And again, I'm happy to put a bit of faith here in the big data stats that have him as -3 PSxG this year, which is not a good stat and measures exactly what you're talking about there. It's far more neutral than an Irish person watching an Irish player and deciding everyone else is at fault.

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A brief look - it would take less than 10 mins to review all the goals - how long have you spent pouring over stats about Bazunu?

Too many long range shots - who is responsible for that - Bazunu or the defenders who didn't make any effort to close down the attacker?

Which goals would a 'stronger hand' have stopped?

Yes - the defence was the problem - now which goals was Bazunu at fault for and why?

And you go back to stats - because they are 'neutral' - stats are useful but they are limited in what they tell about any soccer player. But - this has nothing to do with an Irish fan watching an Irish player and deciding everyone else is at fault. I have zero problem criticising any player or manager who I think isn't up to the job and why? In five games this season Bazunu has been the victim of poor defending - Omobamidele, who I think is a really good footballer, has been very poor when he has played for Norwich.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The first part looks optimistic at present. The second is not in dispute. The third I fundamentally disagree with, for reasons given above. A keeper is part of a defence and while he would benefit from protection, he can (and in this case has) perform poorly on his own accord too.

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The first part - which goalkeeper is better - and would perform better with Southampton's defence in front of him - I would have one possibility - maybe Begovic, purely because of years of experience as a PL goalie - and because he would be screaming at the defence for the entire game.

Fundamentally disagree - of course a goalkeeper can perform poorly all on his own - but when you put a young goalkeeper into a team the manager needs to help him out - and this is the case with a goalkeeper more than any other player on the pitch. Bazunu is a very good goalkeeper - and could be a great one - but keep putting him in bad situations for club and country and it will not help his development. Southampton have to fix their defence otherwise they will have a topsy turvy season and probably lose onut on a chance of promotion - and Bazunu will suffer in the process.

Bazunu must be due a good game.

Keep giving it to him Jolly Red Giant. He has it coming for the best part of a generation on here at this stage. Dig deep now because minutae and hair splitting till people just go away to keep their sanity is his stock & trade.

Play nicely children