Ireland V Sweden(A) 22 March & Austria(H) - 26 March 2013 - World Cup 2014 Qualifiers

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

No, but you constantly fail to countenance any change simply because change may be worse than what we have. There are no counterfactuals in life. The clock can never be rewound.

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Depends what change you mean. I am quite happy to see change and I believe that different players should be used and some of Trap's selections baffle me but that said, he picks them to suit HIS formation, tactics etc. That's what's he's paid to do. Most thought the selection of Green in Sweden would be a disaster. Time told otherwise. If Sweden scored in the last minute, which they almost did, we would have had the why not bring on Hoolahan 20 minutes earlier debate again etc. Such are the fine margins.

Will come back to the rest later. Have to go home for dinner :)

You can eat again?

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Originally Posted by BonnieShels

There is no logic to using Whelan when we have Green. I've not gotten over the horror show against Russia in Lansdowne where Green got the blame for Whelan's gash performance.

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Sorry but while Green ended up being a shield for Whelan's being rubbish, his positioning throughout the game was disastrous. Fairer to say they were both dreadful and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Another thing that annoyed me about the game is that we pressed the ball well at times when they were in possession and it was far more effective than when we just stood off them. I thought the penny had finally dropped but no, back to being happy to mark space again.

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Combination of tiredness and lack of composure. Our lack of experience on the night was glaring. It's no more than a dodge, but Trap had a point on that one.

For everyone talking about Sammon - didn't get it. He didn't do any more than what Jon Walters offers in terms of aerial ability, was poor with ball at feet and a bit powder puff when getting outmuscled by Austrians.

He also completely chickened out of a 50/50 tackle around halfway with roughly ten minutes to go - call me old fashioned but you wouldn't catch Walters or Doyle doing that, not with minutes left in a must win game. Granted the guy was knackered and worked hard, but it's the least we should expect. If we need a guy to play that role, just get Walters in there.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

I disagree. Some teams don't notably Spain and Barcelona. But if, heaven forbid, people look beyond Iberia, other teams very much do play with defensive midfielders (or at least midfielders who have a primarly defensive role). At the last World Cup De Jong marshalled the midfield for the Dutch. Bayern Munich have had players like Tymoschuk and Van Bommel. Inter had Cambiasso when the won the CL, in the final they played Zanetti next to him. Look at the Euros Russia (and Zenit) had Zyrianov and now Denisov, Poland had Dudka, Denmark had players like Christian Pouslen and Wim Kvist, Croatia had Vukojevic and Dujmović, England had Parker, France had M'Villa and Alou Diarra and also played Debuchy as a defensive midfielder. I don't think McCarthy is this type of player, he is not naturally defensive in the way most of those are.

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You play the formation that suits the best players you have. If we don't have a top defensive midfielder then we don't play with one, simple as.

We have three ball playing central midfielders and hard-working wingers. So we should play that way.

Put the round pegs in the round holes.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

"A bad manager to a complete bum" !! A play off failure, a qualification, 15 unbeaten games away from home. Level with the other 3 teams in our group for the play off spot. The Scots whom you quote would die for such success. We are not in decline like the Scots. We are actually even getting better. You equate playing a different style of football with different players = automatic success. Be careful what you wish for. It mightn't be what you expect but I can assure you that Trap is neither a bad manager nor a bum. He has his faults and irritations but I am thankful for where he has brought us.

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Let me rephrase then. He's a bum of a manager. Success of the past are noted and the memory of Paris will never fade. But ever since the man has consistently, ad nauseum, picked the lesser of the options available to him in his squads and teams.

Would you like to explain Glenn Whelan's contribution to the cause to me? Or perhaps John O'Shea's. And what has Paul McShane done? Darren O'Dea too. When the likes of Hoolahan and Joey O'Brien are left out and when McCarthy has been dropped to the bench in favor of a much inferior player, then Trap has an awful lot to answer for. If the truth was told and he had played the right players at the right time on Tuesday night last, we would have won the game. So Trap is a bum of a manager.

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Originally Posted by brine3

You play the formation that suits the best players you have. If we don't have a top defensive midfielder then we don't play with one, simple as.

We have three ball playing central midfielders and hard-working wingers. So we should play that way.

Put the round pegs in the round holes.

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That seems a bit of an oversimplification, we don't have great center backs given Dunne is injured, St Ledger isnt fully fit, Clark is inexperienced and O'Shea can be absent minded, should we just not play with any center backs too?

I really don't think we can afford to just have primarily attacking or non defensive central midfielders, we would be putting way to much pressure on our defence

I have been arguing most of these points about Trap for most of the last 4-5 years (me and Paul). This is fun.

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Originally Posted by OwlsFan

Depends what change you mean. I am quite happy to see change and I believe that different players should be used and some of Trap's selections baffle me but that said, he picks them to suit HIS formation, tactics etc. That's what's he's paid to do. Most thought the selection of Green in Sweden would be a disaster. Time told otherwise. If Sweden scored in the last minute, which they almost did, we would have had the why not bring on Hoolahan 20 minutes earlier debate again etc. Such are the fine margins.
Will come back to the rest later. Have to go home for dinner :)

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Most thought the selection of Green instead of McCarthy was a disaster about to happen in Sweden.
Most thought the late injury to Whelan was a blessing.
And at a guess, most were relatively content with a Green/McCarthy partnership as apposed to any other of the possible combination between Green/McCarthy/Whelan. For the second game in a row, it was evident that the McCarthy/Green was the most functional partnership on show in Trap's formation. Yet Trap tore it asunder to bring back a (fitness doubt) Whelan for the Austria game. Not a game loser on its own but definitely left more space in the middle, in the 2nd half for Austria to exploit and what was also evident (again), McCarthy is less effective with Whelan at his side.

I was content with what was achieved in Sweden, I wasn't going to be critical and focus about the possible changes etc that might have brought a win. All we had to do, imo, was win our home games, the rest would fall into place.

Green seems to be the hardest worker from what I can see, he may not be the best on the ball
but that is rather immaterial if we can't win the ball.
When he came on against Poland suddenly we were winning the ball in midfield, same goes for the
Sweden match. Remember most people here thought we were going to get slaughtered with Green
on the pitch yet by the end of the games the very same people were saying we should have won it!!

Thus it seems rather bizarre he was dropped. I didn't see that much of the short time he was on v
Austria be he was hardly at fault for the goal.

Anyone else notice George Hamilton calling Shane Long "Doyle" in the build up to the Long back heel against the post? Twice! Plonker.

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

That seems a bit of an oversimplification, we don't have great center backs given Dunne is injured, St Ledger isnt fully fit, Clark is inexperienced and O'Shea can be absent minded, should we just not play with any center backs too?

I really don't think we can afford to just have primarily attacking or non defensive central midfielders, we would be putting way to much pressure on our defence

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The midfield he suggests is a great balance in my opinion. Gibson and Mcarthy would operate as defensive midfielders but would vastly improve our chances of holding onto the ball. With Coleman and Wilson at full back we could start to resemble a decent footballing team.

----------------Forde
Coleman---Dunne---Sledger---Wilson
---------Gibson-----McCarthy
McGeady-----Hoolahan------McClean
----------------Long

Sammon, although hard to dislike the man for his attitude is not a good football player
Keane still has something to offer but can no longer be undropable
Walters is the man to be used when a target man is required
Whelan doesn't deserve to play
Green doesn't deserve to play, Meyler has more potential to fill this role
Keogh needs to go
Realistically Dunne mightn't play again, so reluctantly O'shea will be filling his role

I got to watch the game finally last night. I think there are a couple of myths arising from the other night.

1) That Sammon did anything of note. He didn't. He's a shocking player at this level. Wrong selection.
2) That Ireland as some sort of unstoppable machine from the 15th minute to the 50th. We were good but so were Austria. We defended their attacks well and took our chance better than they took theirs. We did truly dominate the first 10 minutes of the second half.

A couple of other points that have already been made...

McCarthy was excellent. He let no one down. But he was leggy towards the end. Not really his fault. He'll be the man to build our team around shortly.
Long was immense. It wasn't long ago (when long wasnt being picked) i was criticized for saying that Long was world class and our future. I think he's proven that now.
We worked so hard in this game. Truly credit to the team and to Trap for installing this. It was great to see. However, it did, inevitably, lead to tired legs and minds (plus it was the second game in 5 days obviously) and so the changes should have been made to recognize this. A big black mark against Trappatoni but that's been debated to death.

I have to say the analysis after these two games by all posters on this board is the best I've seen on foot.ie for years. Great reads. :)

I think Long being immense is another myth!

I thought Long made a few big errors. Early in second half he had a gereat chance to play an unmarked Walters in from a square ball from the right of the box but delayed and hit a poor ball. He also headed the ball at the only place the keeper could have saved it when a downward header was a goal all day long. (I think this was Long, though it was hard to tell). I know it was instinctive but I think that's Long all over - leaves too many chances out there. I thought he lost the rag too, playing like an immature cantakerous twit before he was taken off. If he'd kept his maturity he'd have been left on the pitch I reckon. 6/10 for me. What he did well he did brilliantly (9/10 stuff), but the blots on his copybook are hard to ignore.

Agree totally with (1) and (2) and yes, Trap deserves some credit for the work ethic and yes, not making the changes that were so obviously required is a major black mark against him.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I have to say the analysis after these two games by all posters on this board is the best I've seen on foot.ie for years. Great reads. :)

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The Austrian equaliser was perhaps the straw that broke the camel's back.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I have been arguing most of these points about Trap for most of the last 4-5 years (me and Paul). This is fun.

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yeah, but you were wrong for the first 3 years :)

we just saw it before the rest of ye stutts ;)

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Green seems to be the hardest worker from what I can see, he may not be the best on the ball but that is rather immaterial if we can't win the ball.

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He wins the ball, yes, but the problem is that he then gives it away or kicks it into touch.

So what's the point of winning the ball if you can't keep it.

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Originally Posted by SkStu

I have to say the analysis after these two games by all posters on this board is the best I've seen on foot.ie for years. Great reads. :)

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Your posts have infinitely improved. Sorry if that sounds completely patronizing!

Overall though, a good few analysis posts are obviously contradicting one another, whilst others, more worryingly, display a complete lack of tactical knowledge about how teams do (or should) set up...which does seem odd.

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

we just saw it before the rest of ye stutts ;)

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Exactly. :D

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Your posts have infinitely improved. Sorry if that sounds completely patronizing!

Overall though, a good few analysis posts are obviously contradicting one another, whilst others, more worryingly, display a complete lack of tactical knowledge about how teams do (or should) set up...which does seem odd.

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I don't mind contradiction in analysis. It's the beauty of the game - everyone can have their own interpretation of displays, results, formations, tactics.

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Originally Posted by SwanVsDalton

Sorry but while Green ended up being a shield for Whelan's being rubbish, his positioning throughout the game was disastrous. Fairer to say they were both dreadful and leave it at that.

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I wanna say more on this but I agree to say they were both dreadful on the night plus I think we are all preoccupied by Austria at present.

That game is really haunting us eh?